I *want* to believe, but still, almost a year after it was rolled out in 11.1, KDE4 continues to struggle with base functionality, while continuing to improve its appearance.

I would appreciate if you would start a new thread and CC me with the KDE4 issues that you have. I file many bugs on KDE4 and I can help you file the bugs and feature requests that you need. If you want to keep if off list, then you can email me privately. Thanks!

When people start raving about how almost all their base functionality works well, and some of it works better because of KDE4, I will invest the time and effort to try it again. (I had originally installed 11.1 with KDE4).

Okular and Dolphin are far better than KPDF and Konqueror in KDE3 for _most_users. I never thought that I'd be saying that!

So please, by all means, someone, any one, please explain to me in terms I can understand, what KDE4 will do for me that makes my day on Linux go better.

Without knowing your workflow, that is impossible. But I can help address the prblems that you've had.

And until that time, I suspect that there will be a lot of resistance to making the shift, at least as much resistance as there is acceptance by those who want to have the newest first. Newer and cooler isn't automatically better, even if it is better for some subset of those who try it.

Agreed 100%. KDE 4.2 does however work for most end users, in contract to KDE 4.0 and 4.1 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

In <4A278137.9000201@coldsiberia.org>, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

Okular and Dolphin are far better than KPDF and Konqueror in KDE3 for _most_users. I never thought that I'd be saying that! Is Dolphin now as capable as Konqueror?

Since Konqueror now uses the 'DolphinPart' for rendering folders, I would say so. Yes, the file management widget is *exactly* the *same* between Dolphin and Konqueror. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

...

In <4A278137.9000201@coldsiberia.org>, Per Inge Oestmoen wrote:

...

Is Dolphin now as capable as Konqueror?

...

Since Konqueror now uses the 'DolphinPart' for rendering folders, I would say so. Yes, the file management widget is *exactly* the *same* between Dolphin and Konqueror.

In other words, I get the same Meta Info data as you can see here? I shall be thankful if you can verify that such is the case:

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data1.jpg

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data2.jpg

Greetings, Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway

I'm running Dolphin Version 1.2.80 Using KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.2.86 (KDE 4.3 >= 20090514)) "release 125" And I don't see that tab at all in properties for a jpg. If it can be enabled, I'd like to know how. Thanks Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

That Konqueror 3 function, which was absent in both Konqueror 4 and the Dolphin I tried, gives Meta Info for all sorts of files directly from the file browser.

I am trying to file a feature request, but bugzilla is down. I will file it later today. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Submerging Kong by forcing it to use Dolphin is the most disingenuous and dishonest method of achieving parity I have ever seen.

Dolphin STILL can't do what Kong 3.5 could do.  The fact that Kong has been short circuited into Dolphin to prevent comparison reveals a desperation of purpose I had long suspected.

Konqueror still has it's own unique menus and functions. Konqueror embeds parts of Dolphin, but it retains it's personality. Most of what Konqueror could do in KDE 3 can be done in KDE 4, and if you tell me what is missing then I will file the feature requests. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

I *want* to believe, but still, almost a year after it was rolled out in 11.1, KDE4 continues to struggle with base functionality, while continuing to improve its appearance.

I would appreciate if you would start a new thread and CC me with the KDE4 issues that you have. I file many bugs on KDE4 and I can help you file the bugs and feature requests that you need. If you want to keep if off list, then you can email me privately. Thanks!

...

When people start raving about how almost all their base functionality works well, and some of it works better because of KDE4, I will invest the time and effort to try it again. (I had originally installed 11.1 with KDE4).

Okular and Dolphin are far better than KPDF and Konqueror in KDE3 for _most_users. I never thought that I'd be saying that!

...

So please, by all means, someone, any one, please explain to me in terms I can understand, what KDE4 will do for me that makes my day on Linux go better.

Without knowing your workflow, that is impossible. But I can help address the prblems that you've had.

...

And until that time, I suspect that there will be a lot of resistance to making the shift, at least as much resistance as there is acceptance by those who want to have the newest first. Newer and cooler isn't automatically better, even if it is better for some subset of those who try it.

Agreed 100%. KDE 4.2 does however work for most end users, in contract to KDE 4.0 and 4.1

Dotan, Thank you for your response, and your offer of assistance. The combination of that, plus the fact that people here whose opinions and evaluations I respect are starting to come around, may be enough to induce me to try KDE4 after all. As to documenting the issues I have had, I confess I didn't keep a careful log of them, but many of them had to do with problems related to trying to toggle between KDE3, KDE4 and Gnome when I first upgraded from 10.3 to 11.1. And in the end, they led to lots of YaST issues similar to what (I think it was) David Rankin reported recently. I finally gave up and did a clean install of 11.1, with Gnome, Compiz and Emerald window decorations (really like the shade option! Just wish it would show on the wall when I look at all the viewports simultaneously, but that is a minor annoyance at most.) But since you have offered to help me close the loop by assisting me with bug reports, etc., I will seriously consider retrying KDE4. And if it leads to enough bug reports and you are willing to assist me a bit further, I will begin filling out my own reports once I become familiar with the process. Because I really would like to be familiar with KDE4 for support purposes in my work, whether I end up personally switching back to it or not. And when and if I have learned enough to be able to contribute, I am willing and motivated to try to make contributions beyond the "what I want and don't want" type, which I realize is about all I have contributed so far. In particular, I am thinking about trying to get more involved in the Linux documentation project, tldp.org. (Yes, JDD, I will probably be contacting you in the near future, as I see you have been very active in that project. And as all of you can see, if nothing else, I can quickly contribute a lot of words -- :-) In the meantime I have been familiarizing myself with that project. Perhaps that might be a place to consolidate information about KDE4. Anyone here have any thoughts on the idea of having KDE4 docs in DocBook/TLDP? Is TLDP still a preferred source for cross-distro documentation?) But before I try KDE again, I need to decide for myself if I dare try to combine KDE4 and Gnome on the same install/upgrade, or if I should begin by installing just KDE4 and hoping. Or perhaps even reinstalling KDE4.x into 11.1? I am also taking some steps to end up having more than one laptop I can work with, which will make me less reluctant to "tread near the edge". Once again, thanks for your offer of assistance, Dotan. When I have a bit of time to sit back and think, I will write you directly to try to summarize any past experiences I had, and to try to understand how or if certain configurations can be achieved in KDE4. Perhaps this will help you to understand what I want to be able to do, as you have asked, and you might be able to clear up some of the issues that I currently have with KDE4. But as a quick summary, and in no particular order, I would like to be able to run Compiz with a 2x4 matrix of viewports, would like to be able to position the panel on any edge, especially as an auto-hiding bottom panel. And I would like to be able to easily place icons on the desktop(s), and to see minimized windows as icons/emblems on the panel (only for the viewport I am using at that moment). And I'd like to be able to retain or easily reconfigure things like my splash screen, background, etc. to remain the same until such time as I want to deal with a different appearance. And I would like to have more control over restructuring menus via mouse-controlled drag and drop, perhaps into multiple cascading layers, although I have heard that the Evil Empire of Redmond claims to have a patent on this. (Yes, I realize the irony of this, given my general "anti-eye-candy first" stance with respect to KDE4, but this is a wishlist, and that is one of my wishes. But in short, I want to be able to make it look and feel a lot like what I am accustomed to from previously working with Win and OS/2 desktops, in order to make certain common actions behave for me just as they have in the past. I'm not saying 100% compatible, but I don't want someone else making it difficult for me to place icons on the desktop, for example, because someone else thinks that clutters up the user interface and prevents the user from finding and using other new alternatives. And I have seen and read just such statements as justification for pushing out KDE4 early, and for dropping KDE3 support almost immediately.) I need package dependency issues to be minimal, and support for such things as the weather applet, PDA support, easy setup of default system-wide choices for things like PDF reader, browser, email client, etc. Lastly, adverse interactions between programs must be minimal, and key system functions such as YaST must not ever get hosed up by the desktop manager. As I write this, and think about my experiences with desktop managers in openSUSE, I am coming around to the point of view that when and if I become convinced that this will be possible with KDE4, I very likely will try it again. And that includes trying out the new features, as long as I can migrate to them as I become familiar and comfortable with them. As I had said before, I am willing to consider using the desktop (in general, and in KDE in particular) in a new way that the developers believe is better, but if and only if, the transition can be on my schedule, and I can begin from a familiar point of reference. But I am beginning to believe that KDE4 might make that possible in the not too distant future. If it can, I will cease from criticizing the way KDE4 is, and begin advocating *for* it, if it turns out to be at least as good as what I have today. But for me, the jury is still out, although responses like yours, Dotan, and David's and other KDE critics' posts that things are getting better, make me willing to reconsider. I suspect that my attitude and response is similar to what many more people will report once 11.2 comes out with KDE4 as its default or recommended interface. In short, I no longer think that KDE4 in 11.2 will become the kind of issue that it has been in these, its early days. Once again, thanks to you, Dotan, and to the other list members here who have been specific in their criticism, requests, and experience reports with KDE4. In point of fact, KDE4 was the principal reason I began participating in this list, as I figured it would be the best place to get honest leading edge reports on what reality is, with respect to KDE. And I have not been disappointed. I only hope that as I become more deeply involved in how openSUSE works, that I will be able to contribute in turn. And I am committed to staying with openSUSE as my primary distro, as I like both it, and the process by which it evolves. And I especially believe that the openSUSE community is one of the best, perhaps the best, of all distro communities. So once again, thanks to you, Dotan, and to all the active participants on this list. (To the sound of music: "My name is, my name is...") Dan "not the Stan" Goodman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

...

I need package dependency issues to be minimal, and support for such things as the weather applet,

Check!

I have already filed a request with kde for the airport weather information to be included in kde4 kweather to give it the same functionality as kde3 kweather. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189115 Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

2009/6/5 Dave Plater :

...

...

...

I need package dependency issues to be minimal, and support for such things as the weather applet,

Check!

I have already filed a request with kde for the airport weather information to be included in kde4 kweather to give it the same functionality as kde3 kweather. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=189115

Great, Dave, thanks! You might also want to take a look at this plasmoid, which does not come stnadard in KDE 4 but is easily added: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=94106

I actually use yawp on my kde42 desktop, it was suggested when I complained about kde4 kweather on the os kde list. The advantage of kde 3 kweather is it gets it's info direct from the local airport and is accurate to one hour but yawp lags behind by about six to eight hours and here in Cape Town the weather is very volatile in the winter. Regards Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Please add Meta Info tab to Properties menu http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=195327 -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

Okular and Dolphin are far better than KPDF and Konqueror in KDE3 for _most_users. I never thought that I'd be saying that!

I'm using Okular under kde3.5, and I _love_ it! Before Okular I had to use Adobe Reader for many things, but this year Okular even let me fill out my tax forms. Very, very nice. I'll have to log back into my kde4 account and try Dolphin, I guess. Both Konqueror and dolphin were still crippled a couple of weeks ago when I tried, and I really like Konqueror's ability to delve into a file, and look at html files without having to raise firefox or something else; or read a text file without waiting for an editor to come up, or ... I miss that in Konqueror4, and and Dolphin do much of that either. I don't necessarily disagree with separating web browsing from file browsing (I use firefox, after all), but I really like being able browse directly into an html file. John Perry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

... I miss that in Konqueror4, and and Dolphin do much of that either. I don't necessarily disagree with separating web browsing from file browsing (I use firefox, after all), but I really like being able browse directly into an html file.

The features that you mention are most certainly in Konqueror in KDE 4. Maybe you are confusing Konqueror with Dolphin?

Probably I misremembered when I had found those deficiencies. I only realized three or four weeks ago that I hadn't been updating my system regularly -- only the security updates were applied regularly. When I finally remembered to do yast>"online update"> packages> "all packages"> "update if newer version available" there were nearly a thousand packages to update, most of them kde4 packages. Now it's down to a hundred or so a week. I'll have to do some more thorough expolring now that I'm updating everything weekly again. Maybe it's time for kde4 and me to become familiar :-) jp -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:22:33 David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. wrote:

On or about Tuesday 26 May 2009 at approximately 08:18:25 Rodney Baker

composed:

...

Hi all. Has anyone else played around with some of the new stuff in the latest KDE4 update? I haven't found it all yet, but the new desktop background options are interesting (including one that uses Kmarble and looks like the old xearth/xplanet on steroids...). [...snip...]

Now this is the kind of KDE4 report I like to see.

Rodney, which set of repos/howto are you using for the KDE4 setup.

David, I'm running KDE4 Factory so I'm currently running 4.3 beta. I wouldn't recommend it for a production system but if you have a spare test machine around it's definitely worth a try. I'm so used to KDE4 now that I find it hard to go back to KDE3 (had to the other day to fix something corrupted in the KDE4 desktop config, possibly due to a partly completed KDE4.2-4.3beta upgrade that was interrupted by a power outage). I'm also having a problem with Yast2 at the moment - won't even run under gnome (so I've hosed it somehow) - still working on that. Other than that, its all going great - I haven' t had KDE4 crash in ages and they've even fixed a number of bugs with Kmail/IMAP integration :-). Cheers, Rodney. -- =================================================== Rodney Baker VK5ZTV rodney.baker@iinet.net.au ===================================================

On Wednesday 03 June 2009 22:49:12 David C. Rankin wrote:

Yast is still dead as a doornail after the 1-click install through. zypper still works!

If you have the same problem I did, then the solution is to use su - to become root, and then start yast2 from the command line. The problem appears to be that yast is trying to connect to something or other over dbus, and getting rejected. Haven't quite figured out what yet. But with the hyphen after su, the environment gets reset, so it doesn't try to connect to the user's dbus anymore Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 03 June 2009 21:46:01 David C. Rankin wrote: <snip>

Sorry it took so long to reply, but it took me 20 minutes to figure out how to configure the kmail message list window so I could find your reply. I tried aggregating and sorting 20 different ways and was still left with "May" "Monday" "Tuesday" etc.. bars scattered willy nilly in my message list. Once I figured out setting sort by "date" aggregate by "standard mailing list" theme by "classic", then I found you (well no I didn't, I cheated and just searched) I'll set up filters later.

I have to correct the kmail settings suggestion in case someone actually tries them and then scratches their head WTF?. I finally got the sort-filter- aggregate settings configured to give a normal view of the message list. The settings that give a traditional threaded view of the message list for me are: Message Sort Order: By Date/Time of Most Recent in Subtree Aggregation: Standard Mailing List Now things look normal... -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

David C. Rankin wrote:

... After my initial look at 4.3, I am beginning to think "by God it will be ready by 11.2 release!"...

I said it elsewhere, in a much longer post, but when I see this sort of report coming from someone such as yourself, who has been taking a close and critical look at KDE4, it is the _only_ type of evidence that makes me interested in retrying KDE. And I, too, am (just barely) beginning to believe that it will be ready, as well. Never thought I'd be saying that, given its recent state and the length of time til 11.2 comes out, but perhaps the corner has been turned. I truly hope so for all involved...the pioneers such as yourself, the openSUSE community, potential first time users of openSUSE, the developers, and our (openSUSE) "partners", Novell. What repository are you loading from, and what priority do you have it set at relative to the standard ones? Dan Goodman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org