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dwgallien

20 Jul 2010 20 Jul '10

13:11

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.) Thanks. Dennis Gallion -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Patrick Shanahan

20 Jul 20 Jul

13:20

* dwgallien [07-20-10 09:14]:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

Welcome Dennis. Short answer is few utilize both venues and mostly due to personal preference. And, they do not overlap. Questions posed in one forum do not automagically appear in the other. There is also a third forum which suffers similarly, the chat rooms. I guess the shorter answer is: You picks yer poison. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Gudmund Areskoug

13:29

Patrick Shanahan skrev:

* dwgallien [07-20-10 09:14]:

...
Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

Welcome Dennis.

Short answer is few utilize both venues and mostly due to personal preference. And, they do not overlap. Questions posed in one forum do not automagically appear in the other. There is also a third forum which suffers similarly, the chat rooms.

I guess the shorter answer is: You picks yer poison.

It seems like you can sometimes have it all. A probably well known thing I found while investigating how to consolidate communication in a similar situation outside my own control: http://www.citadel.org/ BR, Gudmund -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Patrick Shanahan

13:38

* Gudmund Areskoug [07-20-10 09:30]:

It seems like you can sometimes have it all.

A probably well known thing I found while investigating how to consolidate communication in a similar situation outside my own control: http://www.citadel.org/

Yes, *you* can have it all, but in a very narrow window. Your neighbor cannot w/o the same or similar software packages. To truly "have it all" the three forums would have to be combined, somehow. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Gudmund Areskoug

14:15

Patrick Shanahan skrev:

* Gudmund Areskoug [07-20-10 09:30]:

...
It seems like you can sometimes have it all.

A probably well known thing I found while investigating how to consolidate communication in a similar situation outside my own control: http://www.citadel.org/

Yes, *you* can have it all, but in a very narrow window. Your neighbor cannot w/o the same or similar software packages. To truly "have it all" the three forums would have to be combined, somehow.

As I understood it, Citadel allows just that, so that the users can access one and the same forum using whatever means they like, be it via e. g. web or e-mail, because it's all stored in a database, web and e-mail just being different ways to communicate with it. But I may have misunderstood the Citadel documentation. BR, Gudmund -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Patrick Shanahan

14:32

* Gudmund Areskoug [01-01-70 11:34]:

Patrick Shanahan skrev:

...
Yes, *you* can have it all, but in a very narrow window. Your neighbor cannot w/o the same or similar software packages. To truly "have it all" the three forums would have to be combined, somehow.

As I understood it, Citadel allows just that, so that the users can access one and the same forum using whatever means they like, be it via e. g. web or e-mail, because it's all stored in a database, web and e-mail just being different ways to communicate with it.

But I may have misunderstood the Citadel documentation.

No, I don't believe so. It is I not making myself understood. If you utilize Citadel, *you* will see things combined but anyone not using Citadel and not having it configured similarly will not. And how would someone intrepret an answer posed in a forum where the question did not exist? I understand that this would not happen if proper quoting rule were followed but.... -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Gudmund Areskoug

15:15

Patrick Shanahan skrev:

* Gudmund Areskoug [01-01-70 11:34]:

...
Patrick Shanahan skrev:

...
Yes, *you* can have it all, but in a very narrow window. Your neighbor cannot w/o the same or similar software packages. To truly "have it all" the three forums would have to be combined, somehow. As I understood it, Citadel allows just that, so that the users can access one and the same forum using whatever means they like, be it via e. g. web or e-mail, because it's all stored in a database, web and e-mail just being different ways to communicate with it.

But I may have misunderstood the Citadel documentation.

No, I don't believe so. It is I not making myself understood. If you utilize Citadel, *you* will see things combined but anyone not using Citadel and not having it configured similarly will not. And how would someone intrepret an answer posed in a forum where the question did not exist? I understand that this would not happen if proper quoting rule were followed but....

What I was thinking of was if Citadel were used as server for the openSUSE fora, configured to allow users whatever access tools they like. BR, Gudmund -- This message and any replies to it is scanned by http://www.fra.se. Please direct any complaints about this to them. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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pistazienfresser

16:21

On 20/07/10 17:15, Gudmund Areskoug wrote:

Patrick Shanahan skrev:

...
* Gudmund Areskoug [01-01-70 11:34]:

...
Patrick Shanahan skrev: [...] What I was thinking of was if Citadel were used as server for the openSUSE fora, configured to allow users whatever access tools they like.

BR, Gudmund As a workaround for yourself you can use now for example Thounderbird both for the mailinglists with 'normal' mails and for the fora via NTTP (newsgroups). And on http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2010-07/msg00315.html is already an discussion on the run about aromatically adding the/some information for the URL of a posted newsgroup mail - maybe you can link in?

Greetings pistzienfresser P.S.: "forums" for people without Latin education ;-) (I do not know why it is used from openSUSE as plurale tantum - maybe the singular name/URL was already gone or one forum for every topic?) and according to my information the alternative with plural "-s" is mostly used in English: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/forum#Usage_notes -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

17:38

pistazienfresser wrote:

Greetings pistzienfresser

P.S.: "forums" for people without Latin education ;-)

That is an oddness, who knows where from. Personally, I shall continue to refer to 'fora'. Oh, and I prefer salted sunflower seeds over pistachios. :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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pistazienfresser

18:55

On 20/07/10 19:38, Per Jessen wrote:

pistazienfresser wrote:

...
Greetings pistzienfresser

P.S.: "forums" for people without Latin education ;-)

That is an oddness, who knows where from. Personally, I shall continue to refer to 'fora'.

Oh, and I prefer salted sunflower seeds over pistachios. :-)

Dear Per, I hope I did not offend ye. <;-)> I had no intention in changing one or the other of these præferences of yours - I personally do like the alternative "fora" more than the alternative "forums". I only did not look at the subiect line and wanted to add a common keyword that is corresponding with chosen name of the institution in the openSUSE project but maybe I will cause someone to use one of his lexica, too. Sincerity Yours pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Adam Tauno Williams

15:49

On Tue, 2010-07-20 at 09:38 -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...
It seems like you can sometimes have it all. A probably well known thing I found while investigating how to consolidate communication in a similar situation outside my own control: http://www.citadel.org/ Yes, *you* can have it all, but in a very narrow window. Your neighbor cannot w/o the same or similar software packages. To truly "have it all"

* Gudmund Areskoug [07-20-10 09:30]: the three forums would have to be combined, somehow.

You can come the two that are operational similar. See how mono does it http://www.go-mono.org/forums/ their forums and mail lists are linked. Chat is another thing to itself. -- Adam Tauno Williams LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

13:24

dwgallien wrote:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums?

Even shorter than Patrick Shanahans - there is no difference in purpose. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (26.3°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Felix Miata

13:38

On 2010/07/20 09:11 (GMT-0400) dwgallien composed:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

In many many years on the internet, I've found people tend to prefer one or the other. Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org) 2-higher ratio of unanswered questions to answered questions 3-higher ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-better moderation 5-subject miscategorization widespread (leads searches in wrong directions) 6-pulled (more work to get, but get no processing forced) Mailing lists: 1-displays text legibly and comfortably at users preferred size 2-better ratio of questions asked to questions answered 3-better ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-poorer moderation 5-topics lack categoration within particular lists (hard to narrow searches) 6-pushed (less work to get, more work to process) My only contact with most forums is whatever shows up in Google results. I can only deal with mousetype on an as-needed basis. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Bob Williams

14:35

On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 14:38:48 Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/20 09:11 (GMT-0400) dwgallien composed:

...
Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

In many many years on the internet, I've found people tend to prefer one or the other.

Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org) 2-higher ratio of unanswered questions to answered questions 3-higher ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-better moderation 5-subject miscategorization widespread (leads searches in wrong directions) 6-pulled (more work to get, but get no processing forced)

Mailing lists: 1-displays text legibly and comfortably at users preferred size 2-better ratio of questions asked to questions answered 3-better ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-poorer moderation 5-topics lack categoration within particular lists (hard to narrow searches) 6-pushed (less work to get, more work to process)

My only contact with most forums is whatever shows up in Google results. I can only deal with mousetype on an as-needed basis.

I may have misunderstood, but your items 3 above seem to claim the same thing for both forums and mailing lists. A high ratio of good:unhelpful answers means there are more good answers than unhelpful answers. Bob (in pedant mode) -- Registered Linux User #463880 FSFE Member #1300 GPG-FP: A6C1 457C 6DBA B13E 5524 F703 D12A FB79 926B 994E openSUSE 11.2, Kernel 2.6.31.12-0.2-desktop, KDE 4.4.4 Intel Core2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz, 8GB DDR RAM, nVidia GeForce 9600GT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Brian K. White

15:26

On 7/20/2010 10:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 14:38:48 Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 09:11 (GMT-0400) dwgallien composed:

...
Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

In many many years on the internet, I've found people tend to prefer one or the other.

Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org) 2-higher ratio of unanswered questions to answered questions 3-higher ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-better moderation 5-subject miscategorization widespread (leads searches in wrong directions) 6-pulled (more work to get, but get no processing forced)

Mailing lists: 1-displays text legibly and comfortably at users preferred size 2-better ratio of questions asked to questions answered 3-better ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-poorer moderation 5-topics lack categoration within particular lists (hard to narrow searches) 6-pushed (less work to get, more work to process)

My only contact with most forums is whatever shows up in Google results. I can only deal with mousetype on an as-needed basis.

I may have misunderstood, but your items 3 above seem to claim the same thing for both forums and mailing lists. A high ratio of good:unhelpful answers means there are more good answers than unhelpful answers.

Bob (in pedant mode)

No, he said nothing illogical. He merely used two different forms to say things on opposite sides of a single comparison, which is more work to parse and thus can be less immediately clear. But, after parsing what was said, it works out to being perfectly valid and meaningful. He said "higher ratio" and then "better ratio" which are neither the same words, nor imply the same ultimate meaning in this context. A better ratio of good to bad answers is not a higher one. It is merely a little inconsistent to use two different forms for the two sides of a comparison. It's more work to parse. It would have been more clear to say "worse" and then "better" or to say "higher" and then "lower". Pick one form and use it everywhere for consistency and clarity. Instead of "higher" and then "better", but, what he did say was not actually wrong or meaningless. As long as were being pedants. :) -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Felix Miata

16:14

On 2010/07/20 11:26 (GMT-0400) Brian K. White composed:

As long as were being pedants. :)

Glad I read whole subsequent thread before attempting to respond to Bob Williams. Yes, I certainly could have picked better phraseology, but at least you did grasp my intent. :-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Bob Williams

16:56

On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 16:26:00 Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/20/2010 10:35 AM, Bob Williams wrote:

...
On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 14:38:48 Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 09:11 (GMT-0400) dwgallien composed:

...
Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

In many many years on the internet, I've found people tend to prefer one or the other.

Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org) 2-higher ratio of unanswered questions to answered questions 3-higher ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-better moderation 5-subject miscategorization widespread (leads searches in wrong directions) 6-pulled (more work to get, but get no processing forced)

Mailing lists: 1-displays text legibly and comfortably at users preferred size 2-better ratio of questions asked to questions answered 3-better ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers 4-poorer moderation 5-topics lack categoration within particular lists (hard to narrow searches) 6-pushed (less work to get, more work to process)

My only contact with most forums is whatever shows up in Google results. I can only deal with mousetype on an as-needed basis.

I may have misunderstood, but your items 3 above seem to claim the same thing for both forums and mailing lists. A high ratio of good:unhelpful answers means there are more good answers than unhelpful answers.

Bob (in pedant mode)

No, he said nothing illogical.

He merely used two different forms to say things on opposite sides of a single comparison, which is more work to parse and thus can be less immediately clear. But, after parsing what was said, it works out to being perfectly valid and meaningful.

He said "higher ratio" and then "better ratio" which are neither the same words, nor imply the same ultimate meaning in this context. A better ratio of good to bad answers is not a higher one.

It is merely a little inconsistent to use two different forms for the two sides of a comparison. It's more work to parse.

It would have been more clear to say "worse" and then "better" or to say "higher" and then "lower". Pick one form and use it everywhere for consistency and clarity. Instead of "higher" and then "better", but, what he did say was not actually wrong or meaningless.

As long as were being pedants. :)

Thanks for the explanation. I never said Felix was wrong, merely that I didn't understand. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'pedant'. :) I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones. I rarely visit the forums, but lurk here a lot, where I find an abundance of useful answers. I often find, however, that long threads have a lower signal-to-noise ratio than shorter threads ;) Bob -- Registered Linux User #463880 FSFE Member #1300 GPG-FP: A6C1 457C 6DBA B13E 5524 F703 D12A FB79 926B 994E openSUSE 11.2, Kernel 2.6.31.12-0.2-desktop, KDE 4.4.4 Intel Core2 Quad Q9400 2.66GHz, 8GB DDR RAM, nVidia GeForce 9600GT -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Felix Miata

18:25

On 2010/07/20 17:56 (GMT+0100) Bob Williams composed:

I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones.

In many moons of experience, I've found Google hits on forum URLs produce far more questions asked than good responses, and a frustrating number of questions with no responses at all. Likely many of these went to the FAQ after asking the question, but FAQs don't always have the answers needed. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

19:47

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/20 17:56 (GMT+0100) Bob Williams composed:

...
I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones.

In many moons of experience, I've found Google hits on forum URLs produce far more questions asked than good responses, and a frustrating number of questions with no responses at all.

+1. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Brian K. White

20:39

On 7/20/2010 3:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 17:56 (GMT+0100) Bob Williams composed:

...
I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones.

In many moons of experience, I've found Google hits on forum URLs produce far more questions asked than good responses, and a frustrating number of questions with no responses at all.

+1.

Or worse, you find wrong answers. 37 how do I do X, and yeah I wanna know too, followed by one "OK I been trying to do this forever too and after 18 solid days of torture I finally got it..." (translate: I have no freaking slightest clue what the heck I'm actually doing thus I flopped around for 18 days....) and goes on to describe a bunch of flat out wrong things and has no idea that half of what they're saying is only true in the narrowest of coincidental circumstances that just happened to be true for them one time one day, and the other half of what they say basically breaks their system but they don't know it yet because they have no idea what they're doing and next week when they encounter the problems todays actions caused, they will have no idea that todays actions are the cause and won't come back to the thread and update it with the epilogue that says "uh actually don't do any of that stuff it was all wrong because I had no freaking slightest clue what I was doing..." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Bob Williams

21:17

On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 21:39:17 Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/20/2010 3:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 17:56 (GMT+0100) Bob Williams composed:

...
I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones.

In many moons of experience, I've found Google hits on forum URLs produce far more questions asked than good responses, and a frustrating number of questions with no responses at all.

+1.

Or worse, you find wrong answers.

37 how do I do X, and yeah I wanna know too, followed by one "OK I been trying to do this forever too and after 18 solid days of torture I finally got it..." [...] and won't come back to the thread and update it with the epilogue that says "uh actually don't do any of that stuff it was all wrong because I had no freaking slightest clue what I was doing..."

Of the few forums I do frequent, e.g. http://forum.joomla.org/, they try to encourage OPs to revisit their first post and edit the subject to say "[SOLVED] original-question-about-joomla!". Unfortunately, not many do this, but it makes browsing the forum for meaningful answers a lot easier. I've seen this technique used here as well. Bob -- http://brightonbelle.org/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

21:38

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 22:17:59 +0100, Bob Williams wrote:

Of the few forums I do frequent, e.g. http://forum.joomla.org/, they try to encourage OPs to revisit their first post and edit the subject to say "[SOLVED] original-question-about-joomla!". Unfortunately, not many do this, but it makes browsing the forum for meaningful answers a lot easier. I've seen this technique used here as well.

That's generally useful only if the problems and answers are straightforward. If I post a question about, say, not being able to connect via SSH to a remote system and someone suggests a solution, that solution may work, and it may not work. But in troubleshooting if one doesn't minimise change (ie, change one thing at a time), it can appear that a solution that was applied solved the issue when in fact it didn't - but another change in the environment did. What I'm finding is that in web-based forums, in general, the users are non-technical (though there are notable exceptions to this, both in specific members and in specific forums; OSF is a mix of technical and non-technical users; the (for example) Rockbox forums, OTOH, tend to be largely technical users it seems). I find that in general the non-technical users don't apply the same rigor to troubleshooting that someone from an IT background would. So often a problem can/would be/is marked as solved but the solution wasn't what was suggested by someone replying. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

21:34

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 16:39:17 -0400, Brian K. White wrote:

On 7/20/2010 3:47 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 17:56 (GMT+0100) Bob Williams composed:

...
I'm still unclear which of forums or mailing lists produce more good answers compared to unhelpful ones.

In many moons of experience, I've found Google hits on forum URLs produce far more questions asked than good responses, and a frustrating number of questions with no responses at all.

+1.

Or worse, you find wrong answers.

That's going to be true wherever you look on the 'net, though. Part of the challenge is having a good problem description; a second piece is having a good solution provided. Then it comes down to the searcher's ability to equate the situation reported in the venue (whether it be forums, MLs, etc) to what they're experiencing. Often times a problem can be described in similar terms but have a completely different underlying problem. You may well see this more frequently in forums where there are 50,000 members than in other venues where there are probably fewer people contributing. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Adam Tauno Williams

15:53

On Tue, 2010-07-20 at 15:35 +0100, Bob Williams wrote:

On Tuesday 20 Jul 2010 14:38:48 Felix Miata wrote:

...
On 2010/07/20 09:11 (GMT-0400) dwgallien composed: Forums: 3-higher ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers Mailing lists: 3-better ratio of good answers to unhelpful answers I may have misunderstood, but your items 3 above seem to claim the same thing for both forums and mailing lists. A high ratio of good:unhelpful answers means there are more good answers than unhelpful answers.

Maybe he is comparing both to chat where one is lucky if a technical question even gets the courtesy of a snarky blow-off. :) -- openSUSE w/GNOME http://www.opensuse.org/en/ Linux for human beings who need to get work done. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Greg Freemyer

14:43

On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Felix Miata wrote: <snip>

Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org)

Do you know <cntrl> + In firefox at least it increases the font of the displayed web-page. <cntrl> - Does the opposite. I just tried it at the forum and it seemed to stick while I browsed a few threads. I don't know if there is a way to add that to a favorite or not. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Felix Miata

16:09

On 2010/07/20 10:43 (GMT-0400) Greg Freemyer composed:

Felix Miata wrote:

...
Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org)

Do you know <cntrl> +

In firefox at least it increases the font of the displayed web-page.

How many bugs have you filed on bugzilla.mozilla.org? I've filed 300, even fixed one myself https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=253316. 46 of those I filed include text or font in the summary.

<cntrl> -

Does the opposite.

I just tried it at the forum and it seemed to stick while I browsed a few threads.

Here, it's required 5 times to almost reach comfort level, 6 to overshoot comfort level. In SeaMonkey I can type in a percent that results in a match to my preference. Minimum text size and zoom functions built into browsers were put there to allow users to defend against bad web design. Absent the offense, defense needn't be applied. It shouldn't need to be applied, first because the web is too old for bad design to be standard practice, second because it's unnecessary, and third because it's rude. Text sized in px, as is forums.opensuse.org and most web forums, completely disregards user preferences. That's an excellent definition of rude. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

16:42

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 12:09:31 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

Text sized in px, as is forums.opensuse.org and most web forums, completely disregards user preferences. That's an excellent definition of rude.

Can you make a screenshot of what you see available, and indicate what your display's DPI setting is? I find the font size to be fairly comfortable, but have noticed that my DPI settings (which get whacked on my laptop depending on whether I boot in the dock or not) really affect that significantly. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.

21 Jul 21 Jul

11:24

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2010-07-20 15:38, Felix Miata wrote:

Forums: 1-invariably mousetype (rude, tiny text; certainly applicable to forums.opensuse.org)

At least in the case of opensuse you can read (and write) the forums using nntp, which means you can read them using plain text clients (tin) or gui (thunderbird, claws, pan, knode...). You can even read/write offline without internet. I've recently joined the forums that way, and it is interesting. The ratio of novices is higher, which reflects on the language, manners, questions asked/answered, as many have mentioned here. If there are fewer correct answers, well, it means that more experienced users should think of going there and help ;-) . There are also a good number of very helpful people there. The only problem I still have is carrying the list of already read messages from one computer to another (nntp). As for integration of forums and mail lists, it is technically possible. Currently, we have nntp <-> web gateways, and out there there are nntp <-> mail gateways. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAkxG2NgACgkQja8UbcUWM1yfzQD/fg3syrV5JYO8GrHZitOVF8v3 TcM5KzQKW3ZEaZPgqbIA/2Nagr6N8/oCUWWZz0lQIOUEMkNzoplg7ActTS9eRAU+ =YvOE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Patrick Shanahan

19:35

* Carlos E. R. [07-21-10 15:26]:

The only problem I still have is carrying the list of already read messages from one computer to another (nntp).

I ssh into a central location and read/send mail/news from there. That way I am *usually* up-to-date and, at my age, that is dealing with a lot :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Carlos E. R.

20:34

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-07-21 21:35, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. <> [07-21-10 15:26]:

...
The only problem I still have is carrying the list of already read messages from one computer to another (nntp).

I ssh into a central location and read/send mail/news from there. That way I am *usually* up-to-date and, at my age, that is dealing with a lot :^)

During the free moments I have to read nntp, I don't have network, so that is not possible. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxHWcEACgkQU92UU+smfQUnRQCeIM5z9+IX9SQUT4glU5xaKoOr lyEAn3Ecd8h3nSp9N0LcCd1dgEDlm1Wx =kbKc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Basil Chupin

20 Jul 20 Jul

14:01

On 20/07/10 23:11, dwgallien wrote:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

Thanks.

Dennis Gallion

There are some people who prefer to use the mail list(s) and there those who prefer to use the forum(s). Personally I dislike forums, but this is my personal preference and choice. Nevertheless, there are people who use both and therefore inform those in the "place x" of what they have read about a problem/solution in the "place y" and so exchange the information from one source of information to the other source of information. However, not all people do this and so it pays to look for answers to problems in both the forum(s) and the mail list to see if you can find the answer to your question/problem. Also, the mail lists seem to be patronised by those who actually can do something about problems and have a better solution to problems - but that is my opinion (as I said, I don't go for forums). My personal view is that forums are patronised by people who are happy to hide behind avatars and funny aliases whereas mail lists are patronised by the more serious people. BC -- And God created Woman; and to repent He then created Beer. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

16:43

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:01:13 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

My personal view is that forums are patronised by people who are happy to hide behind avatars and funny aliases whereas mail lists are patronised by the more serious people.

That may be your personal view, but I'd just point out that there are those of us who access the forums via NNTP rather than the web interface, and there are also those of us who are "serious" and use our real names. :-) IOW, I'd avoid painting with broad brush strokes. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

17:34

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:01:13 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
My personal view is that forums are patronised by people who are happy to hide behind avatars and funny aliases whereas mail lists are patronised by the more serious people.

That may be your personal view, but I'd just point out that there are those of us who access the forums via NNTP rather than the web interface, and there are also those of us who are "serious" and use our real names. :-)

IOW, I'd avoid painting with broad brush strokes. :-)

In defence of Basil, I think his description was actually pretty accurate, with the appropriate exceptions to prove him right. Webfora users do appear to have a fondness of avatars and fun[nk]y aliases. I assume it is something that has evolved with the media. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (30.1°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

18:02

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:34:50 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Wed, 21 Jul 2010 00:01:13 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...
My personal view is that forums are patronised by people who are happy to hide behind avatars and funny aliases whereas mail lists are patronised by the more serious people.

That may be your personal view, but I'd just point out that there are those of us who access the forums via NNTP rather than the web interface, and there are also those of us who are "serious" and use our real names. :-)

IOW, I'd avoid painting with broad brush strokes. :-)

In defence of Basil, I think his description was actually pretty accurate, with the appropriate exceptions to prove him right. Webfora users do appear to have a fondness of avatars and fun[nk]y aliases. I assume it is something that has evolved with the media.

True, I don't disagree with that; my dispute is more with regards to the 'seriousness' - I think there's plenty of silliness to go around. :-) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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pistazienfresser

20:25

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:34:50 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: [...]

...
In defence of Basil, I think his description was actually pretty accurate, with the appropriate exceptions to prove him right. Webfora users do appear to have a fondness of avatars and fun[nk]y aliases. I assume it is something that has evolved with the media.

True, I don't disagree with that; my dispute is more with regards to the 'seriousness' - I think there's plenty of silliness to go around. :-) Maybe in the forums are many of the generation that is not fond of giving there data away without a good reason -

On 20/07/10 20:02, Jim Henderson wrote: the generation between the ones how build the web before the Greed and his six companions found the web and the one that grew up with the web (the Digital Natives or the Generation Facebook)? Greetings pistazienfresser --- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Jim Henderson

20:42

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 22:25:15 +0200, pistazienfresser wrote:

...
True, I don't disagree with that; my dispute is more with regards to the 'seriousness' - I think there's plenty of silliness to go around. :-) Maybe in the forums are many of the generation that is not fond of giving there data away without a good reason - the generation between the ones how build the web before the Greed and his six companions found the web and the one that grew up with the web (the Digital Natives or the Generation Facebook)?

That might be true, especially given how creative spammers harvest e-mail addresses these days. Even on NNTP it's not uncommon to use a munged e- mail address. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Per Jessen

21:46

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

pistazienfresser wrote:

On 20/07/10 20:02, Jim Henderson wrote:

...
On Tue, 20 Jul 2010 19:34:50 +0200, Per Jessen wrote: [...]

...
In defence of Basil, I think his description was actually pretty accurate, with the appropriate exceptions to prove him right. Webfora users do appear to have a fondness of avatars and fun[nk]y aliases. I assume it is something that has evolved with the media.

True, I don't disagree with that; my dispute is more with regards to the 'seriousness' - I think there's plenty of silliness to go around. :-)

Maybe in the forums are many of the generation that is not fond of giving there data away without a good reason -

You mean people between 15 and 100? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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pistazienfresser

16:37

On 20/07/10 15:11, dwgallien wrote:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.) [...] Hello list, hello Dennis,

In my private opinion it is more a historical and a bit a net-social difference: * The mailinglists were there first - so why should the users of that that liked it switch to the new NTTP or web format? * The mailinglists are a bit more closed as you need to subscribe to it (and get a lot of messages) to post on it - I am not subscribed to all of them. * Maybe the mailinglists are a bit more 'privat' - most users (unlike me) use real or real sounding names (and not only a link to the openSUSE profile with the real name in it ;-)) in the openSUSE forums most users use a pseudonym/nickname. Greetings pistazienfresser -- - openSUSE profile: https://users.opensuse.org/show/pistazienfresser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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dwgallien

21:31

New subject: [opensuse] Re: This mailing list vis-a-vis the opensuse forums?

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

Thanks.

Dennis Gallion

Thanks to all for the many and varied replies. I didn't expect the bonus entertainment value. My two cents: Essentially the same purpose, but with noticeable differences in the mix of participants and questions/answers. At the forums (fora???) ~half of the threads/posts deal with installation issues and ~third applications. Frequent repetition and lengthy threads due to high percentage of new users. Moderators do a very good job, but the volume is daunting. A small core of very experienced users do most of the heavy technical lifting. On this list there appears to be fewer participants, but with proportionately much more experience; questions/answers are therefore more technical and direct. No need for a moderator. Occasionally the dev's participate, a major plus. The overlap that I previously ref'd to, is that I occasionally see on this list questions (usually re installation) for which an answer can be quickly found on the forums (this was one of the reasons I asked the question). Of course, for most of the other lists (factory, kernel, studio, build service, etc.) there is little commonality with the forums. Thanks again for the comments! Dennis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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David C. Rankin

22:58

On 07/20/2010 08:11 AM, dwgallien wrote:

Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums? I try to provide assistance on both, but do notice there is often overlap, i.e., occasionally questions posted here have been previously asked/answered at the forums and vice-versa. (I ask the question only in the interest of everyone's most efficient use of time.)

Thanks.

Dennis Gallion

I have found distro forums are inconvenient and rarely have any useful information. Very few of the people with the skill, knowledge and intelligence to actually provide good information are listed as contributors in the opensuse forum entries I've seen. Further, if you find a relevant thread, you can never be assured you have found the "right thread" in forums to know whether you can expect any help or if you are just on a dead thread. Or if your question has already been answered in another thread under another title and you can expect no feedback at all. At least with the mailing list, the author of the answer is usually pissed enough that you failed to read his answer the first time, he will tell you so and direct you to where you can find the answer :p Dissemination of information in the one-to-many realm is best handled in a mailing list format for linux distributions or a wiki. Forums are best suited for motherboard manufacturers answering specific questions about BIOS upgrades or the like. Distro forums inevitably just turn into a mish-mash collection of loosely related information that are impossible to navigate. For example, of the 50 or so suse forum threads I've run across in google, only 2 contained relevant and technically correct information, the rest were nothing but a collection of guesswork that looked like they caused more confusion than anything else. My .02 -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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Mihamina Rakotomandimby

21 Jul 21 Jul

09:05

dwgallien@gmail.com : Would someone please explain the difference in purpose between this mailing list and the openSUSE forums?

Also, from http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php?faq=novfor#faq_nntp Q: How do I set up my news reader? A: Though each newsreader differs in it's method of setup, there are some general guidelines to consider. The name of the news server to specify is forums.opensuse.org This server is on port 119 and does not require authentication and is not a 'secure' news server. Once you have the news server defined in your reader, you will need to subscribe to individual news groups to be able to read and post messages. -- Architecte Informatique chez Blueline/Gulfsat: Administration Systeme, Recherche & Developpement +261 34 56 000 19 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

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participants (16)

Adam Tauno Williams
Basil Chupin
Bob Williams
Brian K. White
Carlos E. R.
Carlos E. R.
David C. Rankin
dwgallien
Felix Miata
Greg Freemyer
Gudmund Areskoug
Jim Henderson
Mihamina Rakotomandimby
Patrick Shanahan
Per Jessen
pistazienfresser