On Fri, 2005-11-11 at 22:23 +0000, Kevanf1 wrote:

On 11/11/05, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

On my (KDE) desktop, the Firefox browser shows up with a tiny font for the top-line menu (File, Edit, View, etc.) The control for that font appears to be neither in Firefox itself nor in the KDE control center. I'm guessing that it's somewhere in the X configuration. Can anyone tell me how to make that font bigger (or to change it to a different font)?

Paul

--

This isn't specific to SuSE, Paul. It happens to me with SuSE 10 and also Kubuntu. The 'good' (?) news is that it has been flagged up on here a week or two ago. I am currently trying to find exactly which config line it is that needs tweaking. I'm 99% sure it is configurable through the about:config utility that is accessed by typing that very URL into Firefox. I'm currently trying to find the time to trawl through the Firefox Hacks book. As soon as I get an answer I will certainly post it up here.

-- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer

34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

Running SuSE 10.0 here. This helped me, I just put a link in /.kde/Autostart to start the gnome-settings-daemon. Fonts for all gnome apps are much better. Hope this helps. Bob

Kevanf1 wrote:

On 11/11/05, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

On my (KDE) desktop, the Firefox browser shows up with a tiny font for the top-line menu (File, Edit, View, etc.) The control for that font appears to be neither in Firefox itself nor in the KDE control center. I'm guessing that it's somewhere in the X configuration. Can anyone tell me how to make that font bigger (or to change it to a different font)?

This isn't specific to SuSE, Paul. It happens to me with SuSE 10 and also Kubuntu. The 'good' (?) news is that it has been flagged up on here a week or two ago. I am currently trying to find exactly which config line it is that needs tweaking. I'm 99% sure it is configurable through the about:config utility that is accessed by typing that very URL into Firefox. I'm currently trying to find the time to trawl through the Firefox Hacks book. As soon as I get an answer I will certainly post it up here.

There is no such about:config entry. Read up here (Mozilla there means any of Mozilla Suite, SeaMonkey, Firefox & Thunderbird): http://www.mozilla.org/unix/dpi.html If you know anything about CSS, and unless you've used user CSS in your FF profile to override, you'll find that the Firefox main menu fonts will match any web page text to which this style is applied: {font: menu}. That style is used on http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/fonts-menu-comp-ff.html and http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/fonts-system.html if you care to see it in action. -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Felix Miata [11-11-05 19:46]:

...

There is no such about:config entry. Read up here (Mozilla there means any of Mozilla Suite, SeaMonkey, Firefox & Thunderbird): http://www.mozilla.org/unix/dpi.html

there most certainly is, and it is in the article you cite, just above 'Chosing Your Mozilla'.

I didn't just cite it, I wrote its last revision, an extensive overhaul, inspired largely by repeated threads like this one here and on other mailing lists: http://cvs-www.mozilla.org/webtools/bonsai/cvslog.cgi?file=mozilla-org/html/unix/dpi.html&rev=&root=/cvsroot/ and am the last to have been tweaking on http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html : http://cvs-www.mozilla.org/webtools/bonsai/cvslog.cgi?file=mozilla-org/html/unix/customizing.html&rev=&root=/cvsroot/ My response was to the discussion of directly controlling fonts via about:config. There is no direct way to do it; there are no about:config entries for UI font-family nor UI font-size. Changing browser.display.screen_resolution via about:config is a profile-specific kludge for those who can't manage to get their system DPI correctly set, which when done benefits all Gecko profiles & system users, and not just when running Mozilla.org apps. Note that that article section attempts to get the user to get the system DPI correctly set first before mentioning the pref setting. -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/

marbux wrote:

You have to create a userChrome.css file.

No one has to create a userChrome.css file unless they want to manipulate the UI of a specific Mozilla.org application profile.

Once it is set up, if you exit FF and relaunch it, the settings will be transferred to the file that renders when you enter about:config in the location bar.

Absolutely nothing you put in userChrome.css is ever transferred to user.js, the only file that you change when you make a change using about:config.

Hint: some of their sample code at the web site gives type sizes in millimeters ("mm"). You can safely switch those to point sizes ("pt").

3mm and 3pt aren't even close to the same thing, so following that advice could cause a pretty big mess. 3pt is 3/72" (0.04167"), while 3mm is 0.1181", nearly three times as much.

There is a CSS hack at the Mozilla customizing site for switching screen resolution on a per-site basis, and I have playing with it on my Todo list.

Sounds like you're thinking of per-site user CSS, which has nothing to do with screen resolution, beyond compensating for sites that presume you're using common low screen resolutions like 1024x768 or less and setting their CSS font sizes in small px values. Site specific CSS was not implemented until after Firefox 1.0 branched over a year and a half ago, and will make its official Firefox debut in v1.5 within about a week or so.

I am still looking for a system-wide fix.

Is everything on your system seeing the same DPI? Is your DPI appropriately set? -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

marbux wrote:

On 11/11/05, Felix Miata wrote:

...

3mm and 3pt aren't even close to the same thing, so following that advice could cause a pretty big mess. 3pt is 3/72" (0.04167"), while 3mm is 0.1181", nearly three times as much.

I phrased that poorly. What I meant was that people could use the more familiar point size conventions rather than the off-topic millimeter standard employed on the web site's example code. I did not intend to imply that 3-point type would be a useful setting. I had a 25-year-plus career as a professional typographer, beginning at age 10, before a career change in my 40's. In my considered opinion, type sizes should *never* be specified in anything but points because it encourages to the very type of misunderstanding that you describe. The point system of measurement for type size has an oral and written tradition spanning more than 500 years of western civilization.

That position a very logical one to take, but only until you understand the critical distinctions between printing on paper and "printing" to the world wide web, where you have no real idea of the actual size of anything displayed except on your own equipment. The user has ultimate control of several variables, including browser default text size, screen resolution, DPI, available fonts, and display size. Visit these links to get the general idea of the DPI problem that specifically makes points unsuitable for publishing to the web: http://style.cleverchimp.com/font_size/points/font_wars.GIF http://style.cleverchimp.com/font_size/points/dump.html In addition, neither px nor pt should be used for sizing any text expected to be viewed in M$IE, because of that old browser's inability to override inappropriately sized text, and change its size to something usable by the particular viewer. I have additional links to web text sizing and other web accessibility issues at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/wauth2.html -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

Felix, on SuSE 9.3, under KDE > System > Monitor > X-Server, I show: Dimensions: 1280 x 1024 pixel (382 x 292 mm) Resolution: 85 x 89 dpi Best regards, Marbux On 11/14/05, marbux wrote:

Thank you ever so much for educating me on a critical factor. I have bookmarked the links you posted and will give them some public exposure on the web site I maintain. I'm sure you are aware that many people are coding CSS without specifying relative rather than absolute type sizes. I now understand much better why you were pointing me at the system DPI setting.

I am working on my Windows partitions at the moment (still waiting for a couple of critical app improvements before I can abandon Windows entirely).. But I will check my Linux DPI settings later tonight and report back.

However, a further question regarding the example CSS code on the Mozilla customizing web page: Are millimeter type sizes not absolute as well? Shouldn't that code be edited to reflect relative rather than absolute type sizes. (I realize that "absolute" is probably not the right term here, given the discussion in the linked pages.)

Thank you again. It is always a pleasure to stumble across someone with expertise in an important area. Please feel free to contact me directly by email.

--Marbux

On 11/15/05, Felix Miata wrote:

marbux wrote:

...

Felix, on SuSE 9.3, under KDE > System > Monitor > X-Server, I show:

...

Dimensions: 1280 x 1024 pixel (382 x 292 mm) Resolution: 85 x 89 dpi

If those mm dimensions are accurate, your display aspect ratio is non-standard, and it's using rectangular pixels (hence the unequal dpi values): http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html

If I am understanding the linked chart correctly, the numbers also roughly equate to settings for a 19-inch monitor, but mine is a 21-inch (Silicon Graphics). Could that have anything to do with the issue? And I would appreciate a pointer on what changes to make and where to make them. I've never had to mess with X-server settings before. I really appreciate the time you are giving this issue. Hopefully we are working toward a solution that could be incorporated in the SuSE setup script so fewer people will experience a similar issue. Marbux

On 11/15/05, Joe Morris (NTM) wrote:

marbux wrote:

...

And I would appreciate a pointer on what changes to make and where to make them. I've never had to mess with X-server settings before.

Open sax2, go to Monitors, change configuration, properties for your monitor, Expert tab, put the correct size for x and y for your monitor.

Thank you, Joe. I'll give it a try. Marbux

marbux wrote:

On 11/15/05, Felix Miata wrote:

...

marbux wrote:

...

...

Felix, on SuSE 9.3, under KDE > System > Monitor > X-Server, I show:

...

...

Dimensions: 1280 x 1024 pixel (382 x 292 mm) Resolution: 85 x 89 dpi

...

If those mm dimensions are accurate, your display aspect ratio is non-standard, and it's using rectangular pixels (hence the unequal dpi values): http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html

If I am understanding the linked chart correctly, the numbers also roughly equate to settings for a 19-inch monitor, but mine is a 21-inch (Silicon Graphics). Could that have anything to do with the issue?

The chart computes all values based upon actual diagonal dimensions. CRT vendors universally overstate the usable diagonal size of the tube, instead advertising the gross diagonal tube size, which can be up to 2" larger than the maximum diagonal dimension viewable. To anyone not using a flat panel, I recommend choosing some resolution other than the oddball 5/4 aspect 1280x1024, with a screen as large as yours, at least 1400x1050. If I had one the size of yours, I'd probably be at 1920x1440. I'm using 1792x1344 on my local server. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/std-resolutions.html

And I would appreciate a pointer on what changes to make and where to make them. I've never had to mess with X-server settings before.

Joe Morris gave you the convenient answer for this. The direct route would be to do what sax2 does, and add a DisplaySize entry to xorg.conf in 'Section "Monitor". If you wish a particular DPI, you might wish to choose one from the list at: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/DisplaySize -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

On 11/16/05, Felix Miata wrote:

Traditionally,

before scalable fonts came into wide use for screen media, screen fonts typically were available in limited sizes, commonly skipping odd sizes above 10pt (some common bitmap fonts still do that). The Windows 98 system menu font comes/came on only 3 pt sizes. 0-9, 10-11, & 12-up. 10pt is one such size smaller than the screen default 12pt (16px), about which: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html:note1

I'd guess that it was a carryover from the hot type printing days. Movable type and Linotype/Intertype mats for typesetting only came in odd and even type sizes up to 12 pt., then even number sizes only after that. Some half sizes were available for text; e.g., "agate" was another name for 5-1/2 point, commonly used in classified ads set on a 6-pt base. 8-1/2 and 9-1/2 point were fairly common for newspaper and book text. I still remember the first time I laid my hands on the Addressograph/Multigraph Co.'s first phototypesetter. It allowed odd and even typesizes up to about 36 point as I recall. I was shocked, although it turned out to be pretty handy for filling column-width in display lines. It was also the first phototypesetter I saw that had a CRT rather than a 16 or 32-character LED for the display, but this was before WYSIWYG. The deluxe version came with an 8-inch floppy drive rather than a paper tape puncher/reader. Most of the text typesetting in high production plants was still being done without any monitor at all. If you worked in a newspaper, you had to be able to read 6-level Teletypesetter (TTS) code on punched paper tape (amongst other joys) to earn your journeyman papers back then. But I digress. Marbux

On 11/16/05 5:42 PM, "marbux" wrote:

On 11/16/05, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Traditionally,

...

before scalable fonts came into wide use for screen media, screen fonts typically were available in limited sizes, commonly skipping odd sizes above 10pt (some common bitmap fonts still do that). The Windows 98 system menu font comes/came on only 3 pt sizes. 0-9, 10-11, & 12-up. 10pt is one such size smaller than the screen default 12pt (16px), about which: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html:note1

I'd guess that it was a carryover from the hot type printing days. Movable type and Linotype/Intertype mats for typesetting only came in odd and even type sizes up to 12 pt., then even number sizes only after that. Some half sizes were available for text; e.g., "agate" was another name for 5-1/2 point, commonly used in classified ads set on a 6-pt base. 8-1/2 and 9-1/2 point were fairly common for newspaper and book text.

I still remember the first time I laid my hands on the Addressograph/Multigraph Co.'s first phototypesetter. It allowed odd and even typesizes up to about 36 point as I recall. I was shocked, although it turned out to be pretty handy for filling column-width in display lines. It was also the first phototypesetter I saw that had a CRT rather than a 16 or 32-character LED for the display, but this was before WYSIWYG. The deluxe version came with an 8-inch floppy drive rather than a paper tape puncher/reader. Most of the text typesetting in high production plants was still being done without any monitor at all. If you worked in a newspaper, you had to be able to read 6-level Teletypesetter (TTS) code on punched paper tape (amongst other joys) to earn your journeyman papers back then.

But I digress.

Marbux

In a previous life I ran a Comugraphic Editwriter 7500- You could use a total of 8 fonts with the extended version...4 on each card/film strip. Any time you changed fonts, you changed cards and filmstrips. Ours started out @ 6 pt, and ended @ 72 pt. (something like 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, 48, 56, 60, 72) Talk about hog heaven! Super hi-tech! Then to the darkroom...45 sec exposure @ f22, 2:45 in developer @ 68°, 5 minutes in fixer... Before that it was the California Job case layout- http://homepage.mac.com/gasjr4wd/fonts/california_typecase.jpg I still remember setting type by hand. Then there was the summer I ram a lino...the hottype smell (liquid lead, ummm) is still is in my skin. (and yea that sh*t burned!) Oh, and for those of you who STILL put a double space between sentences, that was a typewriter thing. You can stop now. I bet your typing teacher didn't tell you why you should do that... (hint- "en" space, "em" space) Leading is called that for a reason... Old terms...riglet, furniture, composing stick, stone, chase... Old knowledge...J and U were added to the alphabet later. If you guys know how far 'puters and printing have come, you wouldn't bitch about what GUI to run... You would just shout up and run with what you have. ;) -- Thanks, George I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

On Friday 11 November 2005 7:41 pm, Felix Miata wrote:

Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

On my (KDE) desktop, the Firefox browser shows up with a tiny font for the top-line menu (File, Edit, View, etc.) The control for that font appears to be neither in Firefox itself nor in the KDE control center. I'm guessing that it's somewhere in the X configuration. Can anyone tell me how to make that font bigger (or to change it to a different font)?

In kinfocenter section X server, what is the reported DPI and screen resolution?

DPI is 97 x 92, screen size is 335mm x 283 mm, and that matches the physical screen. Resolution is 1024 x 768. I fixed the problem through the Gnome control center, which offers lots of flexibility. The tiny font, according to Gcc, was 10 points; raising it to12 gave a reasonable result. My presumption is that whoever chose the 10 points liked the way it looks. Paul

On Friday 11 November 2005 10:30 pm, Felix Miata wrote:

Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

On Friday 11 November 2005 7:41 pm, Felix Miata wrote:

...

In kinfocenter section X server, what is the reported DPI and screen resolution?

DPI is 97 x 92, screen size is 335mm x 283 mm, and that matches the physical screen. Resolution is 1024 x 768.

That's an odd aspect screen. Normal screens have 4/3 or higher aspect ratios. Some flat panels are a bit taller for their 5/4 aspect ratio native 1280x1024 resolution. What kind of display do you have?

97x92 is close to the windoze default of 96x96 that browsers now days, and web pages, tend to presume you are running.

Felix, I have a 21" tft lcd that runs 1600x1200 and kinfocenter says the dpi is 75x75. And the physical dimensions are 542x406 mm's, (that doesn't seem right?) Your page shows my dpi should be 96. (and yes the measure is 1") What is correct? There also doesn't seem to be a way in SAX to change the dpi, only refresh rates and resolution. Bob S.

On 13/11/05, Felix Miata wrote:

B. Stia wrote:

...

I have a 21" tft lcd that runs 1600x1200 and kinfocenter says the dpi is 75x75. And the physical dimensions are 542x406 mm's, (that doesn't seem right?)

Are you running 8.2 or something older? 542x406 does not compute for any 21" display I can imagine.

...

Your page shows my dpi should be 96. (and yes the measure is 1") What is correct?

You don't say which page. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html shows that Kinfocenter seems to be lying. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi-screen-window.html reports what xft/fontconfig tells it from (document.getElementById("inches").offsetWidth) (if using an XFT build of Mozilla and JS is enabled), unless you have used Mozilla pref browser.display.screen_resolution to override it.

...

There also doesn't seem to be a way in SAX to change the dpi, only refresh rates and resolution.

I so rarely use SAX for anything, I can't begin to guess what it should or should not be able to do. I hand tune /etc/X11/xorg.conf and if necessary /etc/X11/Xresources to achieve desired DPI results. Normally I set to a multiple of 12, which seems to minimize anomolies in font size renderings when web pages size text in pt. One pt is 1/72".

A Linux desktop won't necessarily have a single DPI. Kinfocenter gets its info from xdpyinfo, which reports what xfs believes the DPI to be. XFT versions of Mozilla will report the DPI that xft/fontconfig believe it to be. Without an entry 'DisplaySize' in 'Section "Monitor"' I find typically these will not match.

Running any recent SuSE you can typically force the two to match whatever DPI you wish to have, accurate or not, by creating a DisplaySize entry in xorg.conf or XF86Config or XF86Config-4 as applicable to your system. If you find this fails to create a match, add or uncomment an entry "Xft.dpi: 96" (or whatever DPI you desire) in Xresources. You can pick a DisplaySize/DPI combination from http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/Cfg/displaySize if you wish. If this too fails, you're most likely starting X with a '-dpi 75' parameter via some script or config file somewhere in the /etc tree. --

I believe that all this 'heated debate' about the font sizes in the menu's and toolbars of Firefox seems to be crying out for something. An easy way via Firefox to adjust them to suit the individual user. Is there a request page/e-mail address for the Firefox development team? I think that they ought to know about this. Failing that, some way of doing it in SuSE would be good - though not the ideal of course. -- ============================================== I am only human, please forgive me if I make a mistake it is not deliberate. ============================================== Take care. Kevan Farmer 34 Hill Street Cheslyn Hay Staffordshire WS6 7HR

On Sunday 13 November 2005 01:27 am, Felix Miata wrote:

B. Stia wrote:

...

I have a 21" tft lcd that runs 1600x1200 and kinfocenter says the dpi is 75x75. And the physical dimensions are 542x406 mm's, (that doesn't seem right?)

Are you running 8.2 or something older? 542x406 does not compute for any 21" display I can imagine.

Felix, No, I am running 9.2 with all of the latest updates.

...

Your page shows my dpi should be 96. (and yes the measure is 1") What is correct?

You don't say which page. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html shows that Kinfocenter seems to be lying.

Hmmm... Lying?? Kinfocenter is also where I got the 542x406 dimensions from.

http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi-screen-window.html reports what xft/fontconfig tells it from (document.getElementById("inches").offsetWidth) (if using an XFT build of Mozilla and JS is enabled), unless you have used Mozilla pref browser.display.screen_resolution to override it.

Yes, this is the page where the 1" bar displays correctly. Are you saying that these pages interact with my display? or are they strictly informational? Not sure what you mean by an XFT build of Firefox but is the original SuSE 9.2 64 bit version updated with apt from SuSE. About:config reports the screen as default.

...

There also doesn't seem to be a way in SAX to change the dpi, only refresh rates and resolution.

I so rarely use SAX for anything, I can't begin to guess what it should or should not be able to do. I hand tune /etc/X11/xorg.conf and if necessary /etc/X11/Xresources to achieve desired DPI results. Normally I set to a multiple of 12, which seems to minimize anomolies in font size renderings when web pages size text in pt. One pt is 1/72".

I have looked at the "monitor" section of xorg.conf and XF86.config several times. I don't see anyway to set the dpi there. A funny thing, is when this distro was installed I was using an older Optiquest monitor (crt) which showed up in xorg.conf. When I changed to my new tftlcd it showed up in XF86.config (Reported on this list several months ago) without any comments or explanations.

A Linux desktop won't necessarily have a single DPI. Kinfocenter gets its info from xdpyinfo, which reports what xfs believes the DPI to be. XFT versions of Mozilla will report the DPI that xft/fontconfig believe it to be. Without an entry 'DisplaySize' in 'Section "Monitor"' I find typically these will not match.

What is xfs? and what makes it believe the dpi to be something?

Running any recent SuSE you can typically force the two to match whatever DPI you wish to have, accurate or not, by creating a DisplaySize entry in xorg.conf or XF86Config or XF86Config-4 as applicable to your system.

I hesitate to add anything because I really don't know what I am doing or exactly what to add there in with those files and it says "Do not edit" at the top.

If you find this fails to create a match, add or uncomment an entry "Xft.dpi: 96" (or whatever DPI you desire) in Xresources.

Couldn't find an entry like that in xresources

You can pick a DisplaySize/DPI combination from http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/Cfg/displaySize if you wish.

OK looked at that. Lots of choices. Where would I enter that info?

If this too fails, you're most likely starting X with a '-dpi 75' parameter via some script or config file somewhere in the /etc tree.

Oh boy, that would be a lot of fun trying to do that. Could one of the cli gurus come up with a command for that?.......And, how does one fix the actual screen dimensions to the proper value? Or should I just not worry about it and kludge along? Bob S

On Monday 14 November 2005 02:11 am, Felix Miata wrote:

B. Stia wrote:

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 01:27 am, Felix Miata wrote:

...

B. Stia wrote:

...

I have a 21" tft lcd that runs 1600x1200 and kinfocenter says the dpi is 75x75. And the physical dimensions are 542x406 mm's, (that doesn't seem right?)

...

...

You don't say which page. http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html shows that Kinfocenter seems to be lying.

Hmmm... Lying?? Kinfocenter is also where I got the 542x406 dimensions from.

Yes, lying, at least insofar as Firefox is concerned. Kinfocenter gets its info from the old xfs font system via the xdpyinfo utility, which as I wrote below/earlier is not necessarily the only DPI an X app can find, and not the one Firefox uses.

It isn't done directly. It's done via a "DisplaySize" entry. That requires math. The DPI is computed from your screen dimensions and resolution.

..............<snip a bunch of stuff>.............

...

...

A Linux desktop won't necessarily have a single DPI. Kinfocenter gets its info from xdpyinfo, which reports what xfs believes the DPI to be. XFT versions of Mozilla will report the DPI that xft/fontconfig believe it to be. Without an entry 'DisplaySize' in 'Section "Monitor"' I find typically these will not match.

......<snip a lot more stuff>..........

...

...

Running any recent SuSE you can typically force the two to match whatever DPI you wish to have, accurate or not, by creating a DisplaySize entry in xorg.conf or XF86Config or XF86Config-4 as applicable to your system.

...

If you find this fails to create a match, add or uncomment an entry "Xft.dpi: 96" (or whatever DPI you desire) in Xresources.

......<snip snip snip all through this thread>......

Give this one a try:

DisplaySize 420 315 # 096 DPI @ 1600x1200

OK Felix, FYI kinfocenter and xpdyinfo states the screen resolution is 1600 x 1200 (correct) size is 542 x 405 (incorrect) and the dpi is 75 x 75. Sooo...I put the correct Display size in both XF86Config and the xorg.cong. That didn't change anything. Then I put the "Xft.dpi: 96" in the Xresources file. That didn't change anything.

...

...

If this too fails, you're most likely starting X with a '-dpi 75' parameter via some script or config file somewhere in the /etc tree.

OK, so I then visited the Mozilla URL tou gave me and checked the files it stated. /etc/X11/xdm/Xservers. Lo & Behold there was a dpi 75 statement in that file. I changed it to dpi 96. No joy. Didn't help. (BTW what is the significance of --nolisten tcp br in those config lines.)

...

Oh boy, that would be a lot of fun trying to do that. Could one of the cli gurus come up with a command for that?....

One way to do it would be like:

startx -- -dpi 75

OK, then dropped back to level 3 and did a startx -- -dpi 96 After X started did a kinfo again. Same old stuff. After all of those changes the screeen dimensions and dpi are still not correct, or kinfo is indeed lying. But how does one know? Everything still looks the same.

...

...And, how does one fix the actual screen dimensions to the proper value?

DisplaySize in xorg.conf or XF86Config. Theoretically, X should be figuring it out on its own, but I don't think it's any good at it with large displays and high resolution.

I guess you are correct about that but the problem doesn't seem to be correctable. If it were only Firefox I would change the css file or whatever, but the problem rears it's ugly head in Gimp and Gqview in the menu apps also, two programs I use quite frequently.

Soooooo.....what happens now????? Bob S.

On Friday 18 November 2005 05:38 am, Felix Miata wrote:

B. Stia wrote Fri, 18 Nov 2005 02:56:35 -0500:

...

On Monday 14 November 2005 02:11 am, Felix Miata wrote:

...

B. Stia wrote:

...

On Sunday 13 November 2005 01:27 am, Felix Miata wrote:

...

B. Stia wrote:

...

I have a 21" tft lcd that runs 1600x1200 and kinfocenter says the dpi is 75x75. And the physical dimensions are 542x406 mm's, (that doesn't seem right?)

http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html

Give this one a try: DisplaySize 420 315 # 096 DPI @ 1600x1200

OK Felix, FYI kinfocenter and xpdyinfo states the screen resolution is 1600 x 1200 (correct) size is 542 x 405 (incorrect) and the dpi is 75 x 75. Sooo...I put the correct Display size in both XF86Config and the xorg.cong. That didn't change anything. Then I put the "Xft.dpi: 96" in the Xresources file. That didn't change anything. Soooooo.....what happens now?????

What is your SuSE version? Is yours an upgrade install? Do you have more than one of xorg.conf, XF86Config or XF86Config-4 that aren't symlinks to one of the others? What DPI does gnome-control-center report?

Try: 1-post complete contents of /etc/X11/xorg.conf 2-post complete contents of /etc/X11/Xresources 3-post a screenshot of FF displaying the above URL, along with some KDE applet, like the desktop fonts chooser

Put them all on ftp/http somewhere, not in the email, giving us links to the location.

OK, everythng requested has been put up. Go to www.hiddenlake.net/dpi.html Bob S.

On Saturday 19 November 2005 02:42 am, Felix Miata wrote:

B. Stia wrote:

...

OK, everythng requested has been put up. Go to http://www.hiddenlake.net/dpi.html

Until I have time to boot up 9.2 and fiddle with things, take a look at these: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/fonts-linux-about.html http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/dpi.html (I've expanded since you saved a copy) http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=suse-linux-e&m=113237403615042&w=2 (I'll be adding the gnome-settings-daemon reference to the Mozilla DPI page soon, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.)

OK, took a look at your referenced URL's Informational but not helpful. Had already done that but revisited it.

Your screenshot of gnome-control-center is of the 1.x version (GTK1). Firefox is built with GTK2, so to affect it you'll need the v2.x GTK2 version of gnome-control-center, which may be named simply control-center on 9.2.

OK, I have both versions installed. I showed you that one because it is a gtk app and obviously had the teeny fonts. I used the other version called gnome-control-center (GTK2 ?) to change my fonts to be somewhat readable.

For further screenshots, try to place the small window over a portion of a larger window then shoot the larger window, which will capture both and skip the rest of the desktop.

OK, just learned from you how to make the screen shots more presentable.

Try making Xft.dpi: 96 the last line in Xresources.

Did that, no change.

On the line :0 near the end of Xresources, try replacing the 96 for vt7 with 120 and 75 and see what if any impact results.

Will try that tomorrow. Getting late. Not sure what I should expect or look for with that configuration/change.

In XF86Config, try commenting out Usemodes from Section "Monitor", and setting DisplaySize values closer to a precise 4:3 ratio.

Wellll.....OK. will try that, but remember this lcd is actually more of a 5:4 ratio. (430x320) As an aside, I wanted to use the 1600x1200 screen because it gives me more real estate and what Samsung says is the native monitor setting. I have ben running it mostly at 1280x1024 which make the fonts somewhat larger.

Have you tried to use the nv driver instead of nvidia?

Nooooo.... I really hesistate to do this because it is such a PITA setting up Nvidia again.

Try adding the first line from Section "Monitor" in the xorg.conf file to the XF86Config file.

Actually that line was in that file originally. I replaced that line wit the DisplaySize line.

Add the most recent XF86Config log file from /var/log to the files on the web page. You might inspect it for clues.

OK Will do that, but not tonight. Will let you know when that is added.

I presume 'chkconfig --list' shows xfs is 5:on.

Nooooooo........Actually everything in chkconfig is "off" , including xfs.

-- Felix,

Listen up. This is not a big deal. I just thought you might have the answers for a problem (for me) that has existed from at least 8.0 days. Each new release has me hoping that these incompatabilities will be resolved...... Sigh !!.....Not yet. Maybe next time. Maybe..... Feel satisfied that an attempt was made. You see I am severely sight impaired (macular degeneration) and over two years ago I had several e-mail exchanges with Akkana Peck of Mozilla re: the tiny fonts in the menus and drop down boxes. Nothing was ever resolved and nothing has changed. I still don't expect miracles. I really thank you and all for trying. Bob S.

Kevanf1 wrote:

Guys I don't go with all this business of having to set up the toolbar fonts through Gnome (Control Center). What if I choose not to have Gnome installed due to space reasons?

Four choices: 1-Be happy/live with the Firefox UI defaults 2-Install a theme with the smaller or larger fonts you want 3-Install only the Gnome components required to control fonts, gnome-control-center and its deps 4-Customize with CSS

The author of this particular book also mentions using the Gnome (Gtk) settings but I think he hints at other ways too. He also mentions a way of doing this in KDE that will be implemented in the near future.

That's probably an optional build configuration that substitutes the QT (aka KDE) toolkit for GTK2. AFAIK, it remains experimental.

Again though, if I choose not to have the two heavy weight desktops there must be another way of doing it. I'm leaning towards hacking the 'chrome' files in some way. Apparently it can be done cleanly.

CSS is a perfectly capable way of doing it. It just isn't simple for a CSS novice, unlike using the GTK2 control center. Besides your book there are a number of resources on the web where help in customizing Mozilla apps are available, including: http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html http://www.mozilla.org/unix/dpi.html http://forums.mozillazine.org/ http://www.squarefree.com/userstyles/ irc://moznet/#firefox irc://moznet/#mozillazine irc://moznet/#css -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

On Monday 21 November 2005 9:35 am, Felix Miata wrote:

Four choices: 1-Be happy/live with the Firefox UI defaults 2-Install a theme with the smaller or larger fonts you want 3-Install only the Gnome components required to control fonts, gnome-control-center and its deps 4-Customize with CSS

Re (3): I think you have to install gnome-settings-daemon also and activate it on each session startup. Paul

On Monday 21 November 2005 04:47 pm, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

On Monday 21 November 2005 9:35 am, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Four choices: 1-Be happy/live with the Firefox UI defaults 2-Install a theme with the smaller or larger fonts you want 3-Install only the Gnome components required to control fonts, gnome-control-center and its deps 4-Customize with CSS

Re (3): I think you have to install gnome-settings-daemon also and activate it on each session startup.

Ummm...don't know about that. I am 99% sure I do not have it installed. As per #3, I have only the absolutely necessary files, gnome-control-center and whatever it required. I also do not have the .xsessionrc file although there is a template there for it. gnome-control-center does set font sizes for you in the windows of the apps, gimp, gqview, firefox, etc. The really annoying thing is the teeny tiny fonts in the menus and sub-menus (dialogs) They should be able to be set in a css file.FYI here is an excerpt from a two year old e-mail with a mozilla developer back when I was running 8.2 and had the very same problem. It was unresolved but may give some of you who have much more knowledge than I something to go on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tuesday 19 August 2003 18:23, you wrote:

Bob Stia wrote:

...

Here is my userChrome.css file: ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- menubutton, menulist, menu, submenu, menuitem, #urlbar {  font-family: arial !important;  font-style: normal !important;

....................<snip rest of userchrome>...............

...

...

It's possible that someone has added some new type of menu which isn't one of those, in which case I should add it to the example.  But that's the list I use myself, and I haven't noticed any submenus that aren't following the font I specify.  Which submenus in particular aren't following it?

OK, In Navigator, File. Open file, the listings of files.  Save page as, the listings of files,

Wait, those are all dialogs, aren't they?  Not submenus?  I don't see those as submenus at all ... for instance, File has Open File... as a single item, and that brings up a file selection dialog (which is different on each platform and won't generally follow mozilla preferences, I suspect).  We are talking about the regular mozilla app, not firebird, right?  (We must be, though, since you mentioned Composer.)  I wonder if it's different on different platforms?  (I'm on linux.)  I just downloaded a current build from yesterday, in case there were recent UI changes, but that's not the difference.

Regular Mozilla - Suse 8.2.  Don't know as how they would be different on different systems. These "dialogs" should be common to the internal workings of Mozilla. I downloaded the newest mozilla since our last messages. Some things have been improved. Others have not. I have included a small screenshot of EDIT - PREFERENCES. As you can see the left hand side is OK. The dialog to make your choices have those tiny fonts. Other dialogs seem to be better except for the tiny fonts in the selection buttons eg: Cancel, OK, Apply, etc. ...................<snip a bunch of stuff>....................

It might be time file a bug on this, though (in bugzilla.mozilla.org, please cc me on it) because it's sounding like this is probably (a) a bug which needs to be fixed for proper accessibility (it's important that our fonts can be made big enough to be visible!) and (b) may be in an area where I can't easily fix it (perhaps on a platform I don't use). We probably need to get someone involved who knows more about XUL and what changes might have happened recently in the menu system which might have caused this.

      ...Akkana

Akkana, Just wanted to tell you that I attempted to file a "bug" report with bugzilla.  Very complicated.  Don't think I was successful.  As stated above, I waited for the next release and installed it.Some  improvement but .there are still instances that have those tiny fonts in what you call "dialogs".  Thanks for trying to help, that much is appreciated. Bob S. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So you see, this has been around a long time. Back then I tried editing my css files to no avail. My latest quest has been trying to modify my dpi settings, in hopes that will resolve the tiny font problem, with which Felix is guiding me. (Thanks Felix) Not there yet though. Bob S.

On Tuesday 22 November 2005 7:33 am, Kevanf1 wrote:

I'm going to try flagging this up with the Firefox developers. I don't know how succesfull I'll be but if I don't try then we get nowhere at all. It really needs to be totally independent of any Gnome control.

Agreed. My use of gnome-control-center and gnome-settings-daemon is just a stopgap. Paul

On Mon, 2005-11-21 at 09:35 -0500, Felix Miata wrote: <SNIP>

CSS is a perfectly capable way of doing it. It just isn't simple for a CSS novice, unlike using the GTK2 control center.

Besides your book there are a number of resources on the web where help in customizing Mozilla apps are available, including: http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html

Works fine with Mozilla but firefox is still not showing results and I am using both 1.0.7 and 1.5 -- ___ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ | | | | [__ | | | |___ |_|_| ___] | \/

B. Stia wrote Mon, 21 Nov 2005 01:22:26 -0500:

On Saturday 19 November 2005 02:42 am, Felix Miata wrote:

...

B. Stia wrote:

...

...

OK, everythng requested has been put up. Go to http://www.hiddenlake.net/dpi.html

...

Your screenshot of gnome-control-center is of the 1.x version (GTK1). Firefox is built with GTK2, so to affect it you'll need the v2.x GTK2 version of gnome-control-center, which may be named simply control-center on 9.2.

OK, I have both versions installed. I showed you that one because it is a gtk app and obviously had the teeny fonts. I used the other version called gnome-control-center (GTK2 ?) to change my fonts to be somewhat readable.

gnome-control-center ought to be able to change all your GTK2 apps to use whatever fonts you please, either via DPI, or more directly through the font chooser. For GTK1, forget it. This is why GTK2 was developed. Everything else ought to be adequately controled through KDE Control Center.

...

In XF86Config, try commenting out Usemodes from Section "Monitor", and setting DisplaySize values closer to a precise 4:3 ratio.

Wellll.....OK. will try that, but remember this lcd is actually more of a 5:4 ratio. (430x320) As an aside, I wanted to use the 1600x1200 screen because it gives me more real estate and what Samsung says is the native monitor setting. I have ben running it mostly at 1280x1024 which make the fonts somewhat larger.

See below. You shouldn't need an inferior resolution just to get big enough fonts.

...

Have you tried to use the nv driver instead of nvidia?

Nooooo.... I really hesistate to do this because it is such a PITA setting up Nvidia again.

AFAICT, switching drivers by changing one line in xorg.conf/XF86Config will not uninstall anything or disturb any other configuration files. I don't have any NVidia cards in any Linux machines right now to be sure, but I can't believe it would be otherwise.

...

I presume 'chkconfig --list' shows xfs is 5:on.

Nooooooo........Actually everything in chkconfig is "off" , including xfs.

AFAIK xfs feeds GTK1 apps their fonts. Are you using any of those? If not it shouldn't matter.

Listen up. This is not a big deal. I just thought you might have the answers for a problem (for me) that has existed from at least 8.0 days. Each new release has me hoping that these incompatabilities will be resolved...... Sigh !!.....Not yet. Maybe next time. Maybe.....

It's a complex system. Different toolkits. Different stages of development. Different window managers. Overall I think we're better off with the current release than one that is a year or more old.

Feel satisfied that an attempt was made. You see I am severely sight impaired (macular degeneration) and over two years ago I had several e-mail exchanges with Akkana Peck of Mozilla re: the tiny fonts in the

You can see in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=267194 that Akkana & I had more recent discussion, just over one year ago. It seems I've learned enough since then that I need to update that page again.

menus and drop down boxes. Nothing was ever resolved and nothing has changed. I still don't expect miracles. I really thank you and all for trying.

I spent quite some time today with SuSE 9.2. Here's a summary of today's 9.2 work: http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/ff-gtk2-dpi.html Every method of controlling the system DPI Firefox uses (and consequently its UI font sizes) that I tried today worked: 1-Exclusively via Xft.dpi: in Xresources (not reflected in xfpyinfo/Kinfocenter output) 2-Exclusively via DisplaySize in xorg.conf/XF86Config 3-Exclusively via -dpi # as a startx parameter browser.display.screen_resolution currently affects only web page absolute sizes, not UI fonts. I believe you should be able to run your native 1600x1200 resolution and have fonts suitable for your needs, if you have critical need for no GTK1 apps. QT and GTK2 have evolved to present users with the means to control fonts, little by little, version by version. As of 9.2, Firefox in particular, and I believe probably most GTK2 apps, do not dynamically take font size changes, but instead require a restart for gnome-control-center's configuration changes to take effect. The included GTK2 version does include gnome-settings-daemon, and NAICT, gnome-control-center is what calls it from deep in the /opt tree, not any user's .rc files. I have to believe if you can't follow the procedures we've already discussed that you're experiencing some obscure contiguration bug that would unlikely survive an upgrade to 9.3 or 10.0. An upgrade, whether clean install or otherwise, would probably also prune away more legacy GTK1 apps. It's only about 3 months since I retired my SuSE 8.2 1997 hardware server for something much newer, currently running Mandrake 2006, but targeted for SuSE 10.0. -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

[After reading your reply, I tried to investigate 9.2 further according to your experience, but my 9.2 box, which is also my 9.3 box and an OS/2 & DOS box, has just decided not to POST any more. Feels like the keyboard cable plug has become partially detached. Don't know when or if I might be able to fix it, so my SuSEs might be limited to 9.0 & 10.0 for a while.] B. Stia wrote:

On Tuesday 22 November 2005 10:07 pm, Felix Miata wrote:

Although I have GTK1 (gnomecc) installed I don't think any of my present apps use it. Probably should uninstall it and see what happens. Now, I looked in GTK2 (gnome-control-center) very carefully. I find a way to set the screen resolution but nothing for the dpi. I am supposing from some past email exchanges that X is supposed to know ??

Plain as day in all the screenshots at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/ff-gtk2-dpi.html in the gnome-control-center Font Rendering Details window. DPI is short for dots per inch resolution.

If everything in chkcinfig --list is off does that mean that gnomecc is not doing anything? ( a conclusion from an earlier statement)

If everything in chkconfig --list was off you would have little if anything working anywhere. Do you mean everything on the xfs line is off? If so, turn it on for at least runlevel 5.

...

You can see in https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=267194 that Akkana & I had more recent discussion, just over one year ago. It seems I've learned enough since then that I need to update that page again.

OK, read that with interest. Supposedly everything was fixed. Didn't know you were a developer. Thanks

Developer in the usual sense of the word really isn't the right term for what I do. I'm not a c++, gcc, java, JS, perl, python, bash, etc. programmer. I do put in considerable time on the Mozilla project, but as alpha tester, QA, bug reporter, website maintenance, user support, and rarely, bug fixer. The only few bugs I've provided patch fixes for are data or UI style (CSS) bugs. I keep Chatzilla open most of the time on more than 12 channels, including irc://moznet/#css and irc://moznet/#linux where anyone from here is welcome to join.

OK, and I thank you. Here is what I found. I dropped back to level 3 and tried, several times. to enter the dpi parameter for startx. It choked and brought me back to the logon screen.

'startx -dpi 100' ? It worked for me with all #s I tried, e.g. 100, 120, 96, 108. The thing to do then is to compare /var/log/XFree86.0.logs between trying with and without a -dpi parameter to startx, and with starting with xdm. There should be some difference(s) that would point someplace useful.

I then just did a plain startx in frustration and lo & behold it started with the 96 dpi resolution. What a wonderful difference. ( I had tried this earlier as to your suggestion but it didn't work. Probably because I had not yet edited the Xresources file)

Here's why I wanted to fiddle with 9.2 some more. It seems I forgot there are two Xresources files: /etc/X11/xdm/Xresources /etc/X11/Xresources So, I'd start by trying matching Xft.dpi: values at the end of each file. On my Mandriva 2006 server, my only Linux box running and available ATM, I have done exactly this, where each of the two came with initial values set to 90, and where the within preceding comment says "...prevents tiny fonts or huge fonts depending on the screen size".

After doing that xdpyinfo reported screen resolution as 1600x1200 (no change) screen size as 432x321 ( as opposed to it's former 542x406 mm) and dpi as 94x95 (as opposed to it's former 75x75) Progress here. This is what it is supposed to be.

:-)

Now, here is where I am at. If I start the OS with the graphical init 5 I get the wrong paarameters. If I start at init 3 and do a startx it starts x with the proper parameters. I repeated this drill 3 or 4 times to verify the behavior.

WHAT ?? is causing this ??

Linux configurabilty cuts two ways. :-p If matching Xresources files don't fix it, next thing to try is the other thing I wanted to start 9.2 for. In Mandriva in /etc/kde/kdm/kdmrc for several versions there has been a default setting 'UseTheme=true'. I know SuSE has been doing this in kdmrc too, but don't remember when it started, which I'm pretty sure was sometime after 9.0. I don't like the login manager behavior of these themes, so I change mine always to false to get a traditional KDM greeter. It could be that there is a theme conflict that doing as I have done would fix. A peek into /etc/X11/Xsession shows references also to .Xresources and .Xdefaults in $HOME. I'd check to see if those files exist, and if so, see if there are any settings applicable to DPI in either or both. I'd also look in /etc/X11/Xservers for a -dpi # parameter for :0, and if there isn't one, try one. If none of the above help, you could just keep doing startx, or proceed to upgrade to 10.0. :-) -- "I can do all things through Him who gives me strength." Philippians 4:13 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

I'm the one who started this discussion, and with the help of some advice I got a while ago, I've finally gotten the Firefox menu bar fonts to behave the way I want them to under KDE. The solution I've adopted does not involve any fiddling with DPI; I assume, possibly wrongly, that the reason the fonts are small is that the Gnome defaults are deliberately chosen that way. You need to have gnome-control-center installed. Go to gnome-control-center and select, in an obvious way, the font and size that gladdens your heart. You can choose the face as well as the size -- something that DPI twiddling won't give you. Start up Firefox and you'll see the font you want -- but it won't persist between sessions. To make it persist between sessions, you need to do one more thing: insert into your ~/.xinitrc file the line gnome-settings-daemon & Now all will be well for the rest of your days. Paul

On Monday 21 November 2005 10:12 am, John Coldrick wrote:

On Friday 18 November 2005 23:17, Paul W. Abrahams wrote:

...

To make it persist between sessions, you need to do one more thing: insert into your ~/.xinitrc file the line

This has been discussed in a concurrent thread - the trouble I've had with this solution(which does indeed work) is that the gnome daemon fights with the KDE daemon, and can give you troublesome results. For instance, I never use screensavers - after this screensavers suddenly started running. I don't have gnome fully installed, thus I can configure this off. Same for key-repeats - I think you'll find gnome is now controlling that instead of KDE. For those of us with very specific keyboard settings, this isn't a very good scenario.

My question is why the gtk engine isn't handling this sort of stuff

I wonder if there's some way to start up gnome-settings-daemon and let it run long enough to set the fonts, and then turn it off. I am thinking about that because if you don't run the daemon and set the fonts through the control center, they last for the rest of the session, though not longer. properly

in KDE. That's what it's designed to do!

I wonder if the gtk engine wizards are even aware of the Firefox problem. Paul