RandR connector names [Poll/Discussion]

Matthias Hopf

15 Oct 2008 15 Oct '08

11:01

RandR isn't exactly verbose in specifying, what an output actually is. So far, two interpretations have been used, with one limitation or another. Most drivers interpret outputs to be connectors (a), so they have outputs named like VGA-1 DVI-1 radeonhd instead uses signal routes as outputs (b), so the same set as above is specified as 3 outputs, named VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital The advantage of a) is that this is much more user friendly due to the short names. The disadvantages (and main reason for radonhd to be implemented differently) are 1) that there is little metainformation on the connectors 2) you can (theoretically) drive both the analog and digital lines on a DVI port, even with different signals - which cannot be realized with scheme a) at all The disadvantage of b) is mainly that the names are awkward to use, and having the same connector listed twice leads to confusion. Regarding a)'s disadvantages 1) can be sort-of removed by presenting the meta information over properties (something to be standardized with RandR 1.3), and 2) is theoretically possible, but typically impracticable, and also not really supported (there's only one DDC line per DVI connector). DMS-59 connectors would fit in this scheme, but are already represented as two DVI connectors nowadays. So the question is with the property system in place (some corrections need to be applied) is whether to keep the old style, or whether to convert to the apparently standard style other drivers have used so far. I remember a discussion with Alex Deucher, after which both of us were basically convinced, that the solution of the other one (respectively) is the right one :-P I'd like to ask for reasons for one approach or the other, and for the general feeling about this issue. Maybe we have a strong majority for one of the two solutions. Somehow, I guess we will be closer to 50:50, though :-] So please post your conclusion, especially if you can back it up with experience or configurations that would work well in one of the scenarios, but not in the other. Thanks Matthias -- Matthias Hopf __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ R & D www.mshopf.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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Rafał Miłecki

15 Oct 15 Oct

11:17

2008/10/15 Matthias Hopf :

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So please post your conclusion, especially if you can back it up with experience or configurations that would work well in one of the scenarios, but not in the other.

I don't really see point of using "analog" and "digital" suffixes. OK, there is:

...

you can (theoretically) drive both the analog and digital lines on a DVI port, even with different signals but I belive this is strictly theoretical situation only. I've never seen such a solution in practice, did anyone? If this may be needed in future for development, maybe make this splitting as an option?

Moreover I also don't see point of using -I and -D suffixes for DVI. OK, I know there is some difference, but really... don't think end user cares about it. If someone needs to know what kind of output in on GPU - instruction is for that. Plus maybe we can also put info to Xorg.0.log. Last confusing thing in my opinion is using DVI-D for HDMI output. Maybe it has the same pins as DVI, maybe every driver calls it DVI... but it's just confusing. In every GPU/notebook documentation with HDMI otuput you will see "HDMI" not "DVI". So that makes little mess. I think it would be nice to create HDMI_n names. Thanks for asking us :) That's great you listen opinions from simple end-users :) And everybody: comment my ideas as well, please :) -- Rafał Miłecki

Matthias Hopf

12:31

On Oct 15, 08 13:17:05 +0200, Rafał Miłecki wrote:

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Moreover I also don't see point of using -I and -D suffixes for DVI.

Not needed any more with the proposed properties. I'm thinking about leaving DVI-A, because you typically expect a DVI output to be able to drive TMDS...

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on GPU - instruction is for that. Plus maybe we can also put info to Xorg.0.log.

The log file already has this info.

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Last confusing thing in my opinion is using DVI-D for HDMI output.

Yes, if we're changing, that has to be changed as well.

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Thanks for asking us :) That's great you listen opinions from simple end-users :)

No probs. I'm unsure what scheme to use myself, it used to be clear at the beginning of the RandR implementation. ;) Thanks for the feedback Matthias P.S. I will wait at least a week until some final decision. No need to hurry through this. -- Matthias Hopf __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ R & D www.mshopf.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Michael Gaber

13:26

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a) VGA-1 DVI-1

b) VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital

I vote for b because it has more flexibility and doing a could somewhere in the future eventually lead to problems we don't think about yet. and fixing it later when thoroughly used etc. will be awkward Regards Michael

Ilyes Gouta

13:34

New names :) VGA-1 DVI-1A DVI-1D It may be off spec. Regards, Ilyes Gouta. On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Michael Gaber wrote:

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a) VGA-1 DVI-1

b) VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital

I vote for b because it has more flexibility and doing a could somewhere in the future eventually lead to problems we don't think about yet. and fixing it later when thoroughly used etc. will be awkward

Regards Michael

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Niels P.

14:10

I like the idea from Ilyes Gouta but if i can only vote for one of the both ways i vote vor B. Ilyes Gouta schrieb:

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New names :)

VGA-1 DVI-1A DVI-1D

It may be off spec.

Regards, Ilyes Gouta.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Michael Gaber wrote:

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a) VGA-1 DVI-1

b) VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital

I vote for b because it has more flexibility and doing a could somewhere in the future eventually lead to problems we don't think about yet. and fixing it later when thoroughly used etc. will be awkward

Regards Michael

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Rafał Miłecki

17:07

2008/10/15 Ilyes Gouta :

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DVI-1A DVI-1D

I guess it's A for analog and D for digital? I don't like this. Common end-user will never know what A/D stands for. I think it's even more confusing than full "/analog" and "/digital". -- Rafał Miłecki

Luc Verhaegen

14:26

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 03:26:36PM +0200, Michael Gaber wrote:

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a) VGA-1 DVI-1

b) VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital

I vote for b because it has more flexibility and doing a could somewhere in the future eventually lead to problems we don't think about yet. and fixing it later when thoroughly used etc. will be awkward

Regards Michael

Especially since some chinese companies are selling actual splitters for DVI-I. These totally ruin whatever policy one has with respect to the hotplug pin and DDC, but those things are out there, and if outputs can be forced by the user, this can be used effectively with this scheme whiÃle being totally impossible with option a. Luc Verhaegen. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Alex Deucher

14:05

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:01 AM, Matthias Hopf wrote:

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RandR isn't exactly verbose in specifying, what an output actually is. So far, two interpretations have been used, with one limitation or another.

Most drivers interpret outputs to be connectors (a), so they have outputs named like

VGA-1 DVI-1

radeonhd instead uses signal routes as outputs (b), so the same set as above is specified as 3 outputs, named

VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital

I personally prefer (a) since it seems more logical to me and easier for users to understand. The physical connectors are what the user sees. A lot of people don't really know that DVI-I is really a combination of analog and digital, so it's easy for confusion to arise when you see more outputs listed than connectors on your card. Alex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Christian König

18:24

Am Mittwoch, den 15.10.2008, 13:01 +0200 schrieb Matthias Hopf:

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RandR isn't exactly verbose in specifying, what an output actually is. So far, two interpretations have been used, with one limitation or another.

Most drivers interpret outputs to be connectors (a), so they have outputs named like

VGA-1 DVI-1

radeonhd instead uses signal routes as outputs (b), so the same set as above is specified as 3 outputs, named

VGA-1 DVI-I_1/analog DVI-I_1/digital I vote for a as the default so the most common use case are met with a simple scheme, but with a xorg.conf option to switch to scheme b.

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2) you can (theoretically) drive both the analog and digital lines on a DVI port, even with different signals - which cannot be realized with scheme a) at all For me that's far away from being a theoretically option see below.

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Regarding a)'s disadvantages 1) can be sort-of removed by presenting the meta information over properties (something to be standardized with RandR 1.3), and 2) is theoretically possible, but typically impracticable, and also not really supported (there's only one DDC line per DVI connector). DMS-59 connectors would fit in this scheme, but are already represented as two DVI connectors nowadays. Actually i have some embedded systems at work used for industrial operations (in German you would call this "Hutschienenmodul" and i don't have a matching English translation for it, but the German speaking developers should know what i am talking about). AFAIK we don't use one with an ATI/radeon chipset at the moment (Intel or VIA based i think, actually don't know), but that's just depending on which model we sell.

Anyway, because of the limited size of these modules you usually have no more than a single DVI, Power, Ethernet and maybe an USB or other industrial bus connectors, but since the most common use case for these modules is collecting and displaying measured data, it's essential that you can connect more than one monitor to the DVI port. We use different hardware to archive this goal, but one of the simpelst device we have in stock is an adapter cable were the single DVI port is split to TWO DVI connectors and one analog VGA connector. Normally we have to tell the operation system to use a specific resolution (because of the missing DDC capabilities), but recently we got some with an integrated I2C multiplexer (and only windows drivers :(. Just my 0,02 € on this, bye Christian. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Rafał Miłecki

16 Oct 16 Oct

05:34

2008/10/15 Christian König :

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We use different hardware to archive this goal, but one of the simpelst device we have in stock is an adapter cable were the single DVI port is split to TWO DVI connectors and one analog VGA connector. Normally we have to tell the operation system to use a specific resolution (because of the missing DDC capabilities), but recently we got some with an integrated I2C multiplexer (and only windows drivers :(.

That's interesting, I didn't expect that :) Maybe some crazy idea... What about xorg.conf option like "SplitDVI" "boolean"? With true we get DVI-0/digital AND DVI-0/analog With false we get just DVI-0 And I mean false by default as most users don't need that splitting. What about that? -- Rafał Miłecki

Matthias Hopf

17 Oct 17 Oct

14:23

On Oct 16, 08 07:34:32 +0200, Rafał Miłecki wrote:

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2008/10/15 Christian König :

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We use different hardware to archive this goal, but one of the simpelst device we have in stock is an adapter cable were the single DVI port is split to TWO DVI connectors and one analog VGA connector. Normally we

The radeonhd hardware can split its DVI output, but how exactly this is done is unknown yet, and on a *very* low priority. More than two outputs will not be possible anyways, because there are only two CRTCs.

...

Maybe some crazy idea... What about xorg.conf option like "SplitDVI" "boolean"? With true we get DVI-0/digital AND DVI-0/analog With false we get just DVI-0

I probably don't want to support two naming schemes. My current feeling is that people are mostly happy as is, or have explicit demand for the current scheme (say, it's about 50:50 right now), so we probably won't change it until there are significantly more people for changing the scheme. Matthias -- Matthias Hopf __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ R & D www.mshopf.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Hans Ulrich Niedermann

15 Oct 15 Oct

22:21

Matthias Hopf wrote:

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RandR isn't exactly verbose in specifying, what an output actually is. So far, two interpretations have been used, with one limitation or another.

What other connector types apart from VGA and DVI are there? I have seen LVDS/PANEL here, but I can't tell about HDMI, TV-Out, DisplayPort, all of which have been absent from this discussion so far. Can we make a comprehensivelist of connector and signal types before trying to come to a conclusion based on the very limited subset of VGA and DVI ports? radeon names: VGA-0 (on my notebook) DVI-0 LVDS radeonhd names: VGA_1 (on my notebook) DVI-D_1 PANEL DVI-I_1/analog (example) DVI-I_1/digital This usage of "-" and "_" looks ugly, from a non-programmer POV. Counting from zero instead of one... unnatural for non-programmers. Why do these names need numbers in them when there is only one of each sort? "LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word? -- Hans Ulrich Niedermann

Yang Zhao

23:40

2008/10/15 Hans Ulrich Niedermann :

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What other connector types apart from VGA and DVI are there? I have seen LVDS/PANEL here, but I can't tell about HDMI, TV-Out, DisplayPort, all of which have been absent from this discussion so far.

I think DisplayPort should definitely be factored into the discussion. After reading about it some more, it seems the specification supports either TMDS or DisplayPort signal being output by the port, which can potentially lead to the same DVI-I naming issue.

...

"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

If (hopefully when) manufacturers migrate to DisplayPort driven panels, LVDS becomes a technically incorrect label. I think PANEL is already as good as we'll get. I propose a compromise between the two: list physical output ports only, except in cases where multiple signals can be used by the same port, simultaneously. Typical Thinkpad setup: - PANEL - VGA - DVI (usually not physically present, but added via dock) Discrete card: - DVI-1 - DVI-2 - TV Discrete card with HDMI: - DVI - HDMI - TV Above, with DisplayPort 2-port DVI-I setup that can drive 2 displays for port: - DVI-A-1 - DVI-D-1 - DVI-A-2 - DVI-D-2 1-indexed numbers to be more unfriendly, and dropped where appropriate. -- Yang Zhao -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Yang Zhao

23:43

2008/10/15 Yang Zhao :

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1-indexed numbers to be more unfriendly, and dropped where appropriate.

Did I just say "unfriendly"? I meant "user friendly". My brain's auto-completion seems to be on the fritz again. ;) -- Yang Zhao -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Hans Ulrich Niedermann

16 Oct 16 Oct

08:13

Yang Zhao wrote:

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I propose a compromise between the two: list physical output ports only, except in cases where multiple signals can be used by the same port, simultaneously.

Typical Thinkpad setup: - PANEL - VGA - DVI (usually not physically present, but added via dock)

Discrete card: - DVI-1 - DVI-2 - TV

Discrete card with HDMI: - DVI - HDMI - TV

Above, with DisplayPort

What above is with DisplayPort?

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2-port DVI-I setup that can drive 2 displays for port: - DVI-A-1 - DVI-D-1 - DVI-A-2 - DVI-D-2

Now this would confuse me (the user), when my card is supposed to have to DVI-I ports (as opposed to DVI-A or DVI-D). I would expect something like this: 2-port DVI-I which can drive 2 displays per port DVI-1/analog DVI-1/digital DVI-2/analog DVI-2/digital 1-port DVI-I which can drive 2 displays per port DVI/analog DVI/digital 2-port card with DVI-I and DVI-D DVI-1/analog DVI-1/digital DVI-2 (implicitly digital) 2-port card with DVI-A and DVI-D DVI-1 (implicitly analog) DVI-2 (implicitly digital) However, now I need to know which is "1" and "2" on my card, when I can much more easily distinguish "DVI-I" and "DVI-D" connectors by looking at the connector on the card itself. So, a naming like 1-port DVI-I which can drive 2 displays per port DVI/analog DVI/digital 2-port card with DVI-I and DVI-D DVI-I-1/analog DVI-I-1/digital DVI-D-2 (explicitly digital) 2-port card with DVI-A and DVI-D DVI-A-1 (explicitly analog) DVI-D-2 (explicitly digital) makes sense again. I don't know whether these strings are allowed to have spaces. If so, a "DVI-D 2" instead of "DVI-D-2" might be more useful, as it is closer to normal plain English. Same goes for "DVI/analog" and "DVI (analog part/pins/output/???)". DVI/dual-link "DVI (dual link)" might also make sense. OK, I'm just throwing out ideas to pick from later :) -- Hans Ulrich Niedermann

Luc Verhaegen

00:17

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:21:31AM +0200, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:

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"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

Heh, Panel signifies a physical characteristic of the type of monitor, it has no correlation with the type of connector. Call it panel, and both VGA, DVI, HDMI, LVDS, DisplayPort can be meant by it. And that is how people actively treat it as well. We need people to actually put in some effort and do the right thing. Modesetting is complicated, and we need to expose some of that complication to the user. There is just no way around it. Luc Verhaegen. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Rafał Miłecki

05:31

2008/10/16 Luc Verhaegen :

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On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:21:31AM +0200, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:

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"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

Heh, Panel signifies a physical characteristic of the type of monitor, it has no correlation with the type of connector.

Call it panel, and both VGA, DVI, HDMI, LVDS, DisplayPort can be meant by it. And that is how people actively treat it as well.

PANEL is actually something I like. I think noone will miss this name with some other PORT/DEVICE. -- Rafał Miłecki

Mark Struberg

08:21

+1 for keeping the current schema (b) I've a bunch of workstations and servers (SEL/RHEL and Solaris)+ 2 notebooks (Fedora9) at work+home , and every time I use a different driver or hardware I'll get slightly different looking connector names (DVI, DVI_0, DVI-0, DVI0, DVI-I_0, PANEL, ...) So as Ulrich already mentioned: to me there currently IS NO standard naming schema, and from a users perspective there is no difference if you have to change an 'DVI-0' to a 'DVI-I_0' or write a more descriptive 'DVI-I_0/digital' I'd probably vote (a) if there would be a real standard naming schema and one could simply change the driver name without having to change other scripts, but without it's imho really pointless. LieGrue, strub --- Hans Ulrich Niedermann schrieb am Do, 16.10.2008:

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RandR isn't exactly verbose in specifying, what an output actually is. So far, two interpretations have been used, with one

Von: Hans Ulrich Niedermann Betreff: Re: [radeonhd] RandR connector names [Poll/Discussion] An: radeonhd@opensuse.org Datum: Donnerstag, 16. Oktober 2008, 0:21 Matthias Hopf wrote: limitation or

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another.

What other connector types apart from VGA and DVI are there? I have seen LVDS/PANEL here, but I can't tell about HDMI, TV-Out, DisplayPort, all of which have been absent from this discussion so far.

Can we make a comprehensivelist of connector and signal types before trying to come to a conclusion based on the very limited subset of VGA and DVI ports?

radeon names: VGA-0 (on my notebook) DVI-0 LVDS

radeonhd names: VGA_1 (on my notebook) DVI-D_1 PANEL

DVI-I_1/analog (example) DVI-I_1/digital

This usage of "-" and "_" looks ugly, from a non-programmer POV.

Counting from zero instead of one... unnatural for non-programmers.

Why do these names need numbers in them when there is only one of each sort?

"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

-- Hans Ulrich Niedermann

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Matthias Hopf

17 Oct 17 Oct

14:48

On Oct 16, 08 00:21:31 +0200, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:

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What other connector types apart from VGA and DVI are there? I have seen LVDS/PANEL here, but I can't tell about HDMI, TV-Out, DisplayPort, all of which have been absent from this discussion so far.

The only connector affected is DVI. All other come only in one flavor (not DVI-D and DVI-A) and can only connect to one display at a time.

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Can we make a comprehensivelist of connector and signal types before trying to come to a conclusion based on the very limited subset of VGA and DVI ports?

I'm doing that with the RandR 1.3 properties. The radeonhd manpage has a subset of that described, though it's outdated ATM.

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radeon names: VGA-0 (on my notebook) DVI-0 LVDS

radeonhd names: VGA_1 (on my notebook) DVI-D_1 PANEL

DVI-I_1/analog (example) DVI-I_1/digital

This usage of "-" and "_" looks ugly, from a non-programmer POV.

If that's common understanding, it could be changed to dash always. The only thing that might be awkward about it is that it is a change.

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Why do these names need numbers in them when there is only one of each sort?

I thought I had some logic in place that doesn't add numbers if there is only one. Guess I didn't do it right :-] Sounds like we will have a change anyway. Also, I think we have a consensus, that DVI-I and DVI-D don't need to be specifically named that way (DVI should be enough). I still would keep DVI-A, due to the awkwardness of this connector. So we would get DVI-A(-1) instead of DVI-A_1 before DVI(-1) instead of DVI-D_1 before DVI(-1)/digital instead of DVI-I_1/digital before DVI(-1)/analog instead of DVI-I_1/analog before I think we also agree on the need of a specific HDMI connector.

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"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

The laptop monitor is called a panel, I don't know a different word for that... Matthias -- Matthias Hopf __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ R & D www.mshopf.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Hans Ulrich Niedermann

19:29

Matthias Hopf wrote:

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On Oct 16, 08 00:21:31 +0200, Hans Ulrich Niedermann wrote:

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DVI-I_1/analog (example) DVI-I_1/digital

This usage of "-" and "_" looks ugly, from a non-programmer POV.

If that's common understanding, it could be changed to dash always. The only thing that might be awkward about it is that it is a change.

I'd only change anything here if there are other changes anyway. Changing the _ to - or something alone is not worth the hassle.

...

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Why do these names need numbers in them when there is only one of each sort?

I thought I had some logic in place that doesn't add numbers if there is only one. Guess I didn't do it right :-]

Sounds like we will have a change anyway.

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Also, I think we have a consensus, that DVI-I and DVI-D don't need to be specifically named that way (DVI should be enough). I still would keep DVI-A, due to the awkwardness of this connector.

If I have a card with a DVI-I and a DVI-D port (and nothing else), naming them "DVI-I" and "DVI-D" could make sense to me...

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I think we also agree on the need of a specific HDMI connector.

If it is a physical HDMI connector which can be detected as such (by the driver), definitely. -- Hans Ulrich Niedermann

Christian König

18 Oct 18 Oct

12:37

Hi, since it's weekend and I'm a little bit bored, i will try to sum up some of the different opinions/discussions a little bit and add my own conclusion: Am Mittwoch, den 15.10.2008, 13:17 +0200 schrieb Rafał Miłecki:

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Moreover I also don't see point of using -I and -D suffixes for DVI. ... Last confusing thing in my opinion is using DVI-D for HDMI output.

Am Mittwoch, den 15.10.2008, 16:47 +0200 schrieb Egbert Eich:

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-I and -D is irrelevant for the user (in most cases at least). For the user it would even be more useful to know if it is a single or dual link DVI port - as this determines the maximum resolution possible. Adding this would clutter up things even more :(

Am Mittwoch, den 15.10.2008, 10:05 -0400 schrieb Alex Deucher:

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I personally prefer (a) since it seems more logical to me and easier for users to understand. The physical connectors are what the user sees. A lot of people don't really know that DVI-I is really a combination of analog and digital, so it's easy for confusion to arise when you see more outputs listed than connectors on your card.

Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 07:34 +0200 schrieb Rafał Miłecki:

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Maybe some crazy idea... What about xorg.conf option like "SplitDVI" "boolean"? ... And I mean false by default as most users don't need that splitting.

Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 12:20 +0200 schrieb Egbert Eich:

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Sceme A would implicetly imply what Alex would prefer: to combine the two physical outputs into a single logical one (it would be closer to what we term a connector in RadeonHD) and only expose a single output to randr (and thus to the user). This would require an entirely different handling code wise than what we do at the moment. Thus if we have an option to select between both handlings (and to support devices like you've described) we'd have to keep both code paths around (I don't say it's impossible, it just is another degree of freedom that needs testing).

Am Freitag, den 17.10.2008, 16:23 +0200 schrieb Matthias Hopf:

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I probably don't want to support two naming schemes.

Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 00:21 +0200 schrieb Hans Ulrich Niedermann:

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What other connector types apart from VGA and DVI are there? I have seen LVDS/PANEL here, but I can't tell about HDMI, TV-Out, DisplayPort, all of which have been absent from this discussion so far.

Can we make a comprehensivelist of connector and signal types before trying to come to a conclusion based on the very limited subset of VGA and DVI ports? .... This usage of "-" and "_" looks ugly, from a non-programmer POV.

Counting from zero instead of one... unnatural for non-programmers.

Why do these names need numbers in them when there is only one of each sort?

"LVDS" might be technically correct, but is probably known to much less people than VGA and DVI. "PANEL" is probably better-known, but there could be and even better word?

Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 08:21 +0000 schrieb Mark Struberg:

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So as Ulrich already mentioned: to me there currently IS NO standard naming schema, and from a users perspective there is no difference if you have to change an 'DVI-0' to a 'DVI-I_0' or write a more descriptive 'DVI-I_0/digital'

I'd probably vote (a) if there would be a real standard naming schema and one could simply change the driver name without having to change other scripts, but without it's imho really pointless.

Am Freitag, den 17.10.2008, 16:48 +0200 schrieb Matthias Hopf:

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I think we also agree on the need of a specific HDMI connector. .... The laptop monitor is called a panel, I don't know a different word for that...

Am Freitag, den 17.10.2008, 19:25 +0200 schrieb Egbert Eich:

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The term LVDS is rather technical - yet used by all other drivers.

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From the POV of an programmer which has to get get his presentation on

Hopefully i don't have missed something important, if i did just leave me a note. Now to my conclusions. First of all we really need to change something, the number of replies to this thread shows that people are unhappy with the current situation. Second: What we really need isn't a change to the naming scheme radeonhd uses, but a standard xrandr naming scheme all drivers use, just imaging how usefully an hotkey in mplayer/xine/vlc would be to switch your current output to TV-OUT/HDMI (something i do at the moment with a shell script before mplayer starts), or some option in OpenOffice Impress to switch from PANEL to an external output when the presentation starts.... Additionally: Currently xrandr distinguish between outputs and connectors (AFAIK), but only have names for the outputs. So for the case of DVI we currently end up with something like: DVI-[ADI]_[0-9]+/(analog|digital) When we add the options of split TMDS lines we would end up with: DVI-[ADI]_[0-9]+/(analog|single digital [12]|dual digita) Which is in my opinion just a big mess. the wall i just want to connect the beamer and hit start in OpenOffice, wich is the equivalent off running "xrandr --output DVI --auto --above PANEL" and getting OpenOffice to output full screen on DVI. I don't really care if this connector is a single link, dual link, analog or what ever, it should just work because of auto detection whats connected.

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From the POV of the multimedia guy wanting to watch the latest block buster on my TV i want to start the movie, select the language, hit a button and get comfortable, because video (and audio, but that's another question) gets routed to my TV.

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From the POV of the hardware freak wanting to get multiple outputs over the same connector to work i need to be able to specify exactly which part of the connector should be driven by which output.

So i really vote for not changing anything with radeonhd, but moving this discussion to the xrandr/xserver mailing list, and improving xrandr to work with different standardized connector and output names. One last thing to add to the discussion about the DVI splitters: Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 12:20 +0200 schrieb Egbert Eich:

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Sounds like an interesting device :) More comprehensive description would be "annoying". The really problem with (E)EDID and DVI/HDMI is that the standard doesn't say a word about what should happen with (E)EDID information in the case of a (de)multiplexer, splitter or pass through device. Sometimes i even ended up with wiring an EEPROM to the DDC bus, because we didn't got an M$ windows driver to do what a want them to do. Making modelines fully configurable was a really god idea when designing X.

Bye, Christian. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

Matthias Hopf

20 Oct 20 Oct

16:17

On Oct 18, 08 14:37:12 +0200, Christian König wrote:

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Hopefully i don't have missed something important, if i did just leave me a note.

Thanks a lot for your work.

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Now to my conclusions. First of all we really need to change something, the number of replies to this thread shows that people are unhappy with the current situation.

While I agree that we have to change something, not all answers showed that people are unhappy. Just for the record.

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Second: What we really need isn't a change to the naming scheme radeonhd uses, but a standard xrandr naming scheme all drivers use, just imaging how usefully an hotkey in mplayer/xine/vlc would be to switch your current output to TV-OUT/HDMI (something i do at the moment with a shell script before mplayer starts), or some option in OpenOffice Impress to switch from PANEL to an external output when the presentation starts....

I don't see drivers agreeing on a general naming scheme. Also, IMHO using the name for meta information is the wrong approach, this has been used innumerable APIs, and it always failed horribly one way or another. That said, the upcoming RandR 1.3 properties (yes, I'm working on it again) might make this issue mood, because that will have standardized names for signal types etc.

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Additionally: Currently xrandr distinguish between outputs and connectors (AFAIK), but only have names for the outputs.

Connectors have not been evaluated, when RandR 1.2 was designed.

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So for the case of DVI we currently end up with something like: DVI-[ADI]_[0-9]+/(analog|digital)

When we add the options of split TMDS lines we would end up with: DVI-[ADI]_[0-9]+/(analog|single digital [12]|dual digita)

Which is in my opinion just a big mess.

In the split TMDS case you just *need* two outputs, because only this way you could drive them with different signals. What you typically want to.

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From the POV of an programmer which has to get get his presentation on the wall i just want to connect the beamer and hit start in OpenOffice, wich is the equivalent off running "xrandr --output DVI --auto --above PANEL" and getting OpenOffice to output full screen on DVI. I don't really care if this connector is a single link, dual link, analog or what ever, it should just work because of auto detection whats connected.

No, you actually don't want to explicitly specify DVI. Remember: most laptops still have VGA... As you have to verify the connection state anyway, it doesn't matter whether there is one or two DVI outputs for analog and digital.

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From the POV of the multimedia guy wanting to watch the latest block buster on my TV i want to start the movie, select the language, hit a button and get comfortable, because video (and audio, but that's another question) gets routed to my TV.

In multimedia this typically gets complicated, because the setups are provably ambiguous. Some setups are clear, but not all.

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From the POV of the hardware freak wanting to get multiple outputs over the same connector to work i need to be able to specify exactly which part of the connector should be driven by which output.

All your points show that this is really an application issue. So far the application had issues finding out what the internal and external display or what the TV is, but that point should be moot with the standard properties. However, I'm not claiming that the application logic will be easy. It will probably be a big heuristic mess.

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Am Donnerstag, den 16.10.2008, 12:20 +0200 schrieb Egbert Eich:

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Sounds like an interesting device :) More comprehensive description would be "annoying". The really problem with (E)EDID and DVI/HDMI is that the standard doesn't say a word about what should happen with (E)EDID information in the case of a (de)multiplexer, splitter or pass through device.

I would assume because this is not a valid use case at all. Still, if you can support it we probably should.

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Sometimes i even ended up with wiring an EEPROM to the DDC bus, because we didn't got an M$ windows driver to do what a want them to do. Making modelines fully configurable was a really god idea when designing X.

:-) Matthias -- Matthias Hopf __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ R & D www.mshopf.de -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: radeonhd+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: radeonhd+help@opensuse.org

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participants (11)

Alex Deucher
Christian König
Hans Ulrich Niedermann
Ilyes Gouta
Luc Verhaegen
Mark Struberg
Matthias Hopf
Michael Gaber
Niels P.
Rafał Miłecki
Yang Zhao