On 6/1/23 18:40, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
On 2023-06-01T10:12:52, Simon Lees
wrote: while arguing against having it. Then I personally believe we shouldn't as a community be actively asking them to leave or even suggesting they leave and give up there valuable contributions elsewhere in the project because they disagree with the code of conduct while still being willing to follow it.
I'm going to disagree with you on this one.
Even if they pay lip service compliance to the CoC and phrase their toxic hate "civilly" and "just are asking questions" (sealioning) or pretend to be just ignorant (such as pretending that they can't see the difference between celebrating Pride as support for threatened minorities vs celebrating religious holidays), some of them *do* show their true colors *outside* the community.
If the person that I personally am willing to agree to disagree with was showing any of this behavior I certainly wouldn't be agreeing to disagree with them.
Have you *looked* at what the person so concerned about being banned here publishes on his "journals" for example?
If it is any indication, I already publicly said that I agreed with the post that was blocked being blocked.
They *absolutely* should be banned for their demonstrated behaviour and positioning outside the openSUSE project: active trans hate, misgendering, heck, calling for the boycott of this very project.
Even if they behave superficially "civilly" here, they mere presence and toleration makes the community less welcoming, less safe. I do not want to share the same community as them.
Yep, that person is not someone I am willing to agree to disagree with. Where as someone else has acted in good faith and has been completely reasonable in all there interactions with me so for good or bad its in my personal nature to also extend that good faith as long as I can see they are.
I strongly agree that people taking the time and effort to post suggestions to this list are doing so because they desire to make openSUSE a better place and are willing to put in the time and effort to make a change.
No. Don't fall for this. Some post here because they actively work towards making openSUSE a *worse*, less inclusive place. Do NOT assume good intentions when people say they "disagree" with political movements to ensure equal rights for everyone.
That's like saying the GPL is less free because it prevents people from using the code in proprietary products.
This whole part of the thread started because someone told "Anonymous Techie"
"If you feel this is not the place for you then please make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out"
And I spoke up because I'd like to hope that we as a community can do better and be more tolerant when disagreeing with each other.
But no. This is indeed the kind of thing we cannot, must not tolerate. We must not tolerate people who publicly say they disagree with equal right, safety, care, shelter etc for all members of our community. Those people *should* leave. Those are not reasonable points to disagree on.
This I agree with 100%, however, I have been privileged enough to work in many smaller communities where it has been possible to have "equal right, safety, care, shelter etc for all members of our community" without needing a code of conduct. So from that perspective I can see why someone who cares about all those things may have the view that its possible to have all those things without needing a code of conduct. My response to those people is the same as my response was to "The Anonymous Techie" which is my experience of spending 4 years on the board is that openSUSE very much needs a code of conduct because even with one within the openSUSE community sometimes there is a distinct lack of "equal right, safety, care, shelter" and having a code of conduct makes the board and other appointed moderators lives much easier when they unfortunately have to deal with such behavior. As per the theme of this "Sub thread" i'm happy to agree to disagree with people on this because I know its not an opinion shared by all.
Someone feeling threatened by those positions (because it threatens their health, life, safety) and potentially misjudging their own tone then being "policed" is exactly how their playbook works. Don't fall for it. There's not always good people on both sides.
No, but if there is good or even reasonable people on both sides and I have the time i'll atleast have enough of a dialog with them in good faith to try and understand there views and why they hold them. Sometimes I learn something even if I don't agree with them and its great. Other times it quickly becomes obvious they are just trying to cause trouble and I equally quickly stop. As always these opinions are still my own and not that of my employer or projects i'm associated with. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B