December 2011 - openSUSE Project - openSUSE Mailing Lists

[opensuse-project] [boosters] Work Report - Max Lin - Week 51
by Max Lin 26 Dec '11

26 Dec '11

[Red] [Amber] [Green] * openSUSE/KDE Bug triaging * Upstream code tracing * Misc - 1 day off -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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[opensuse-project] Use of mail message Subject
by Rajko M. 26 Dec '11

26 Dec '11

It seems that reading a Subject line in a email message is not the virtue of openSUSE mail lists users. Gentleman comes and tells in a subject line: "******** openSUSE" Replace ******** with your favorite curse, and openSUSE with 12.1, KDE, GNOME etc, and we have huge discussions, that are all archived and searched by search engines, spiders, info harvesters and supplied to unsuspected users. Nice is that we are trying to persuade apparently angry user (or just smart troll - you never know), wich is noble act from openSUSE perspective. Not so nice is that no one comes on idea to change subject, so we multiply that subject for 50, 100 times, shooting ourselves in the foot. Look from Google perspective and you will understand why I think that it is a bad practice not to change provocative subjects as soon as ******** is not valid, and that would be the next post, or at most the one after. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: stupid 12.1
by Adam Tauno Williams 24 Dec '11

24 Dec '11

"Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org> wrote: >On 2011-12-23 19:44, Jim Henderson wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:44:21 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> Well, like I said, it's a good thing there are options, then, isn't >it? >It doesn't speak well of gnome if people that have been using it for a >more >than a decade have to migrate. Been using GNOME for ages, and still using it. There will always be people migrating from one thing to another thing so long as there qre multiple things in ("the cloud" will probably do its best to eliminate that "problem") >Some programs I don't know the calling name. You rarely need to know the actual name of an application to find it; just enter something related like "music" > And others I have to use >long >lines with options. Here (G2) I have an applet that shows a list of the >previously used commands. The exists in shell, Alt-F2. The integrated command line supports history. >>> I also like an applet with the hour and the temperature, of several >>> cities. Now I can't. >> I would like that, yes. But it's not a necessity for me to do my >work. >> In fact, I find that without that, I spend less time wondering about >> stuff like that and tend to be more focused on what I'm actually >working >> on. I'm more productive. +1 +1 +1 +1 I've seen this same complaint on the shell list sooooo many times. If that rises to the level of a significant complaint than I take it as proof the software is *AWESOME*. >> In G3, workspaces are dynamic. Drag a window to an empty workspace, >and >> a new one opens up. I *really* like that. +1 >Yes, that's a good feature. But I can not order them in a matrix with >rows >and columns, as I do in G2. I haven't seen anyone explain WHY the layout of the workspaces matters. So a strip vs. a list; why does it matter? [this setting aside the idea that a human can effectively multitask 12 tasks; which is not possible] -- Adam Tauno Williams -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Richard Brown 23 Dec '11

23 Dec '11

Carlos, Have you seen the (rather extensive) help library that is installed by default in our gnome 3 installation? You can find it in the applications list It's called Help Covers a lot of the information on the websites Adam has suggested, and more, and should be translated for whichever language you have on your install Hope this helps >>> "Carlos E. R." 12/22/11 10:33 PM >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2011-12-22 22:59, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 22:44 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> On 2011-12-22 22:23, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: >> Gnome 3 should put and advert on first use on how/where to find help for >> use of the new interface, not expect me to find everything by trial and >> errors or asking in mail lists or forums. > > Seriously? Seriously?! I think you're trolling. Absolutely. And you insulting. > How hard is that to find - and one of the links > is "Discover GNOME3" You can kick back > and watch the videos! My laptop (the only machine that has G3 now) has no internet all the time. Why should I? Help should be local. I never browsed the Microsoft site to know how to use Windows, there is a local help system. I never needed to go to the gnome site to learn how to use G2, it was intuitive. On G3 F1 does nothing. Videos are in English. What if I don't speak fluent English? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk7zsDgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XzYwCgixk/gKpWQ3T5MKGH6nUMdpQr 2fcAnjKqFiwidXfs6rRMpaQDQoRGTkBl =pmDQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org This Christmas, why not provide a loved one with the perfect opportunity to learn a new skill, make new friends, earn a qualification that could lead to a change in career or impress their current employers? City College Gift Vouchers, redeemable against any of our exciting range of Part-time and Adult Community Learning courses, are available at the Finance Department, 2nd Floor, Central Campus, Pelham Street, Brighton. www.ccb.ac.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Richard Brown 23 Dec '11

23 Dec '11

Hi Albert, As your email focuses very much on gnome, I'm CC'ing this reply to the opensuse-gnome mailinglist so my fellow gnomers can read your feedback. 1. Differences: In my opinion, the responsibility of a project like ours, producing Linux distributions, is to provide a solid, stable, integrated collection of current/cutting edge FOSS software, tweaked and tuned for our users. We shouldn't be changing things just for the sake of changing things. I believe, our implementation of GNOME 3 improves on the current status of the upstream project. It's good to start with, but we made a number of improvements that you don't find in other GNOME3's - For example the Shutdown menu was changed to make Power Off/Restarting and Hibernation easier to access. We install the gnome-tweak-tool by default, and YaST is smoothly integrated into the System Settings Yes, we could do more, we on the openSUSE gnome team are always looking for new ideas and new people to help out implementing them. It's easy, and if you're interested in helping out, please join the opensuse-gnome mailing list and/or #opensuse-gnome IRC channel and say hello 2. gnome2-like environment This is actually called 'fallback mode' It's intended to provide a basic, working environment for when 3D acceleration is not available. As you've noticed, it currently looks like 'vanilla' gnome2, but it is not really intended as an alternative to the gnome-shell mode for those who don't like it - there are efforts to get gnome-shell working without 3D acceleration, and I would not be surprised if fallback mode disappears if these efforts bear fruit. Again, offering my opinion - I personally believe it would be stupid for SUSE/openSUSE to throw good development time behind an effort to enhance fallback mode when it is clearly not the direction of upstream GNOME That said, I do know there was someone working on porting the SLAB menu to gtk3 so it could work in fallback mode And you might be interested in http://extensions.gnome.org - a recently launched service from upstream GNOME that provides a large collection of gnome shell extensions that let you customise the gnome3 environment (not fallback mode). Several of the extensions provide features and functionality which used to be in gnome2. 3. Progress GNOME 3 is progress. gnome-shell is a very different desktop environment, and your certainly not the first to express their dislike for it - but if you want a traditional taskbar/start menu orientated environment, there are great alternatives out there (KDE, xfce, lxde) all supported by openSUSE - we're a distro of choice for precisely this kind of scenario. But please keep in mind that there are also many keen users and keen developers spending a lot of time on GNOME 3. I don't think calling our chosen desktop environment and efforts to improve it 'stupid' is a very productive way forward. Helping out in our gnome team with constructive ideas (you don't need to be a developer for that) or packaging and code would be a much bigger help. So if you truly are a SUSE lover and want our gnome installation to better suit your tastes, I look forward to seeing your contributions soon :) Regards A fellow SUSE lover >>> Albert 12/21/11 10:00 AM >>> I've used SUSE for more than six years and each new version coming out always give me surprising more or less. However, I found the most recent 12.1 is really disappointed, especially the gnome desktop: 1. I don't find any difference and surprise with this gnome3 while comparing with other linux distribution. 2. When I switch to gnome2-like environment, I am getting very angry. How can SUSE become as stupid as Ubuntu? The gnome2-like environment is almost the same as Ubuntu..... The menu, the task bar color and so on. Why can't SUSE keep its own uniques? The SUSE menu in 10.0 till 11.4 is quit nice and creative. Why did this 12.1 switch to stupid Ubuntu like style? 3. What's worse. The workspace switcher in gnome2-like environment is the same as 10.0 version: when we use "only show current workspace", it can only show ONE workspace, and others are all gone...... 12.1, Progress or backwards? To be honest as a Linux user, the stupid gnome3 don't have even a little tinny tiny attraction to me. I do hope the SUSE developer can design SUSE from the aspects of users. If I were a SUSE developer, I will pay more attention to the stability and general interface of SUSE. May SUSE a bright future. A SUSE Lover -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org This Christmas, why not provide a loved one with the perfect opportunity to learn a new skill, make new friends, earn a qualification that could lead to a change in career or impress their current employers? City College Gift Vouchers, redeemable against any of our exciting range of Part-time and Adult Community Learning courses, are available at the Finance Department, 2nd Floor, Central Campus, Pelham Street, Brighton. www.ccb.ac.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Adam Tauno Williams 22 Dec '11

22 Dec '11

On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 12:28 +0100, Albert wrote: > Let's pay attention to other daily people comments from > https://features.opensuse.org/312946 > "It is like Gnome Desktop Environment developers are now working > against Linux... > Pure Gnome3 is just a BIG & major regress on Linux desktop, it makes > Linux desktop productivity more difficult and bring useless features. Hmmm, I read that as "GNOM3 is a big & major step forward for the Linux desktop, it makes desktop productivity more efficient and adds compelling new features". Wierd. > Even the bars are frozen, you cannot interact, neither visual > customize or configure anything. Seems extremely customizable to me. And I don't see any 'frozen' bars; there is just one clean bar at the top which provides lots of functionality. Fire up gnome-tweak-tool and extensions.gnome.org and off I go... > The only Linux Mint & Mate bring some hope... Sure, they can "hope" to be more awesome than openSUSE. Just keep trying guys. :) > I have installed open SUSE just because Linux Mint 12 have some > installation bugs on HP d530 desktop, openSUSE works great on both by HP laptop and HP workstation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Richard Brown 22 Dec '11

22 Dec '11

>>> Albert 12/22/11 11:52 AM >>> > I really don't understand when something is already good >enough, why not try to keep it or make it perfect. Traditional taskbar+start menu desktop environments are well catered for in the Linux ecosystem. KDE is great, xfce and lxde also. If you only interest is in 'good enough', and you find that GNOME3 isn't good enough for your use case, then please, feel free to experiment with those other environments - openSUSE is a distro that likes its users to pick and choose (and if it's contributors decide to add something like MATE into the mix, and put the work behind it to make it a viable option, good for them and good for the distro) Or alternatively, quit your belly-aching and actually provide the gnome team with some constructive critique and we might actually be able to help make gnome3 better for you and anyone else who feels like you. > To me, the GNOME SHELL is just the rubbish derivate of iOS . Why did >people always follow a dead body and admire him as the God of world? Why >CANN'T us be another Steve Jobs and create something new or make good >things better. Gnome 3 is not derivative of iOS, nor is it rubbish, nor stupid, nor any of the other disparaging terms you continue to use despite my request you be nice In fact, it IS exactly what you are asking for, and attempt by the GNOME project to "create something new" - a desktop environment that removes as many distractions as possible from the user while still retaining full desktop capabilities. Have you actually used gnome-shell for any serious period of time? I'm getting a growing impression you have a number of very serious misconceptions about the interface, it's intended goals, and the realities of using it. Regards Richard On 12/22/2011 11:50 AM, C wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:32, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> On 2011-12-22 10:54, C wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:38, Albert wrote: >>>> For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for >>>> user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X? >>> The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no >>> longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE >> https://features.opensuse.org/312946 >> Mate repo for openSUSE > The description of MATE (from their own readme) makes me laugh.... > > "MATE Desktop Environment, a non-intuitive and unattractive desktop > for users, using traditional computing desktop metaphor." > > MATE is not Gnome2... so my comment still stands Gnome2 is museum > fodder now. > > I hope that MATE is a successful project. > > C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org This Christmas, why not provide a loved one with the perfect opportunity to learn a new skill, make new friends, earn a qualification that could lead to a change in career or impress their current employers? City College Gift Vouchers, redeemable against any of our exciting range of Part-time and Adult Community Learning courses, are available at the Finance Department, 2nd Floor, Central Campus, Pelham Street, Brighton. www.ccb.ac.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Richard Brown 22 Dec '11

22 Dec '11

>>> Albert 12/22/11 11:53 AM >>> >>I am afraid that, honey, this is just your own feeling. Not it is not - there are a large number of gnome developers and users who greatly appreciate and enjoy using gnome-shell. We might not be as vocal about it as those unhappy with the direction of travel, but that's probably because we're too busy enjoying our 'distraction-free computing' environment and getting work done :) Are you going to provide us with some constructive criticism with reasoned explanation so we can move forward and take this conversation beyond your opinion of "I don't like gnome3" and maybe towards "I can help make gnome3 better for me"? Regards Richard This Christmas, why not provide a loved one with the perfect opportunity to learn a new skill, make new friends, earn a qualification that could lead to a change in career or impress their current employers? City College Gift Vouchers, redeemable against any of our exciting range of Part-time and Adult Community Learning courses, are available at the Finance Department, 2nd Floor, Central Campus, Pelham Street, Brighton. www.ccb.ac.uk -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-gnome] Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Albert 22 Dec '11

22 Dec '11

I am afraid that, honey, this is just your own feeling. But please don't feel so good. Almost everybody around with using this 3.X feel it is a regress of Linux. Please remember, the full name of "LINUX" is "Linux is not Unix" neither "Windows" or "iOS" On 12/22/2011 11:40 AM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: > On Thu, 2011-12-22 at 10:03 +0100, Albert wrote: >> Why do you encourage people to use GNOME SHELL? Is it more convenient or >> more beautiful to use it? At present, I found no reasons to switch to >> it. It is far behind GNOME2.X. As a Linux user and a professional design >> purpose user, I care more about the STABILITY and friendly interface. To >> me, the GNOME SHELL is much more suitable for tablet and entertainment, >> but not for ordinary daily work such as: office or computational work. > I couldn't disagree more. GNOME3 shell is far ahead of GNOME2 [which > I've been using every day all day to do *work* since the Ximian days]. > Shell is faster and cleaner and provides functionality GNOME2 never did > [dynamic workspaces, overview mode, screencast recording, extensions, > etc...]. Who can possibly miss the taskbar menu? I can't even imagine > why. > > <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/05/fortnight-with-gnome3.html> > <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/11/gaj-zeitgeist-opensuse-121.html> > <http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com/2011/12/gnome3-journal-extension_12.html> > -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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Re: [opensuse-project] stupid 12.1
by Albert 22 Dec '11

22 Dec '11

THX. Now I feel that the person who just call "we" is completely a joke..... Obviously there is no "We" or "team" at this point. Everyone just cares about himself/herself or stands for its small part of world (GS3.X, KDE4, XFC....). I really don't understand when something is already good enough, why not try to keep it or make it perfect. But what I saw is someone stupid abandon something good and try to make something completely stupid. To me, the GNOME SHELL is just the rubbish derivate of iOS . Why did people always follow a dead body and admire him as the God of world? Why CANN'T us be another Steve Jobs and create something new or make good things better. On 12/22/2011 11:50 AM, C wrote: > On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 11:32, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r(a)opensuse.org> wrote: >> On 2011-12-22 10:54, C wrote: >>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 10:38, Albert <mailmd2011(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> For the interface itself, why not provide an option during installtion for >>>> user to choose GNOME2.X or GNOME3.X? >>> The simple answer to this is... Gnome2.x is no longer developed, no >>> longer supported, and deprecated. It's no longer an option. openSUSE >> https://features.opensuse.org/312946 >> Mate repo for openSUSE > The description of MATE (from their own readme) makes me laugh.... > > "MATE Desktop Environment, a non-intuitive and unattractive desktop > for users, using traditional computing desktop metaphor." > > MATE is not Gnome2... so my comment still stands Gnome2 is museum > fodder now. > > I hope that MATE is a successful project. > > C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe(a)opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner(a)opensuse.org

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