[opensuse-kde] Difference between kde repo's - a simple question
Hi folks, I'm following the discussion about the different kde repo's with great interest. I had an discussion about this also on the opensuse-de mailing list some time before. I consider myself as a pure user who is interested in the stuff you, the developers, are doing. From the developer side I'm able to understand how the kde repo's are separated. But we (the users) often want to install the most recent kde version. As far as I understand there is no repo one could use to install the recent stable kde version. STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version FACTORY: recent kde version but under development for the next opensuse release UNSTABLE: bleeding edge kde version So, my simple question is: What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde? best regards Marco -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 22:18:44 schrieb Marco Röben:
Hi folks,
I'm following the discussion about the different kde repo's with great interest. I had an discussion about this also on the opensuse-de mailing list some time before.
I consider myself as a pure user who is interested in the stuff you, the developers, are doing. From the developer side I'm able to understand how the kde repo's are separated. But we (the users) often want to install the most recent kde version. As far as I understand there is no repo one could use to install the recent stable kde version.
STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version FACTORY: recent kde version but under development for the next opensuse release UNSTABLE: bleeding edge kde version
So, my simple question is:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
best regards Marco
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Heya, sorry in the previous mail my thumb hit the touchpad and accidently sent the empty reply =/ Am Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 22:27:45 schrieb Karsten König:
Am Dienstag, 12. Januar 2010 22:18:44 schrieb Marco Röben:
Hi folks,
I'm following the discussion about the different kde repo's with great interest. I had an discussion about this also on the opensuse-de mailing list some time before.
I consider myself as a pure user who is interested in the stuff you, the developers, are doing. From the developer side I'm able to understand how the kde repo's are separated. But we (the users) often want to install the most recent kde version. As far as I understand there is no repo one could use to install the recent stable kde version.
STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version FACTORY: recent kde version but under development for the next opensuse release UNSTABLE: bleeding edge kde version
So, my simple question is:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
That currently is the STABLE repository, which has the latest stable 4.3 release. When 4.4 is release you will find it in FACTORY. This will be updated till the 11.2+ release with the kde stable releases. After 11.2+ has been released 4.4 moves into STABLE and the then in progress KDE version will be pulled into FACTORY Karsten
best regards Marco
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 12. januar 2010 22:18:44 skrev Marco Röben:
STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version FACTORY: recent kde version but under development for the next opensuse release UNSTABLE: bleeding edge kde version
So, my simple question is:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
The latest upstream release is 4.3.4 - you can currently find that in the STABLE repo. But of course in less than a month 4.4.0 will be the latest upstream release and for that you'll need to use the Factory repo. As you imply these repos - like all other OBS repos - involve some risk. However "testing ground for online updates", might sound dangerous but is actually quite low risk - the same can't be said for factory though. But you're hitting the nail on the head. The main purpose of the repos is *development* - servicing *users* is a secondary benefit. Of course there's a group of users who want the latest KDE, with no risk, no effort, and without contributing anything at all to the distro. However this is completely unrealistic - unless you do the work yourself or run some rolling release distro or Fedora with all the pain that involves. And if you look at the OBS statistics, you can conclude that a huge majority of users - prolly 90% or so - are happily using the distro version of KDE. And the purpose of the STABLE and Factory repos is exactly to make KDE better for that huge majority of user that actually use the *distro*. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 12 Januar 2010 22:18:44 schrieb Marco Röben:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is no simple "latest stable KDE SC" repo and I have no idea why Novell refuses to create one. You have to switch repos all the time and when you use Factory, just hope that Novell does not backport some alpha-quality from UNSTABLE to Factory. Back in the day when Novell prepared openSUSE 11.1 / SLED 11, Novell backported some Plasma features from UNSTABLE (then a 4.2 pre-release) to Factory's 4.1. The result was that KDE was unusable for a week or so. Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On 13/01/10 10:20, Markus wrote:
Am Dienstag 12 Januar 2010 22:18:44 schrieb Marco Röben:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is no simple "latest stable KDE SC" repo and I have no idea why Novell refuses to create one.
So, a bit at a time the story comes out.... Are we all here then arguing with all the wrong people? The KDE developers in fact are being constricted by *Novell* regarding having properly named repos for them (developers) to use? The developers really have little say in what repos they are allowed to use - is this the idea I am getting? If so then I have full sympathy for the developers. BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
* Basil Chupin
So, a bit at a time the story comes out....
Are we all here then arguing with all the wrong people? The KDE developers in fact are being constricted by *Novell* regarding having properly named repos for them (developers) to use? The developers really have little say in what repos they are allowed to use - is this the idea I am getting? If so then I have full sympathy for the developers.
Take it and run with it, Basil. Look up FUD, google has it. YOU as a user/??contributor?? decide the "fate" and structure of KDE. defused rocket! -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On 13/01/10 11:40, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
* Basil Chupin
[01-12-10 19:33]: So, a bit at a time the story comes out....
Are we all here then arguing with all the wrong people? The KDE developers in fact are being constricted by *Novell* regarding having properly named repos for them (developers) to use? The developers really have little say in what repos they are allowed to use - is this the idea I am getting? If so then I have full sympathy for the developers.
Take it and run with it, Basil. Look up FUD, google has it.
YOU as a user/??contributor?? decide the "fate" and structure of KDE.
defused rocket!
Thanks, Patrick. Stick to admonishing people who do not "trim" their responses. That is your forte and mission in life - stick to it. BC -- Take the bull by the tail and look the facts in the face. W C Fields -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 13 of January 2010, Markus wrote:
Am Dienstag 12 Januar 2010 22:18:44 schrieb Marco Röben:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is no simple "latest stable KDE SC" repo and I have no idea why Novell refuses to create one.
Because Novell is a company that'd like to make some money and is willing to invest only certain amount of $$$ into some things . Now, the reality is that Novell (as such) does not even really care how many KDE repos there are or what KDE version specifically they contain, as long as certain minimal requirements are met (e.g. there's something working to put into products). The same way, I don't know where you still get the idea that Novell has a tight control of the KDE repos contain. If a group of people would want to maintain KDE:22, they can have it, for all Novell cares. So, in case you actually wanted to ask why the current KDE team refuses to create such a repository, the answer is that we have only this much manpower. For example, as far as I'm concerned, I see it a much better investment of my time to work either on STABLE, making sure KDE works well with the current openSUSE release, or on Factory, making sure KDE works well with the next openSUSE release, than on a repository that only a relatively low number of people would use only because they'd be happy they have x.y.z+1 instead of x.y.z (for example, right now, do you know what would 4.3.5 bring you compared to 4.3.4? Even I specifically don't.). However, I see no principal problem with having KDE:KDE4:LATESTUPSTREAM:Desktop or whatever you call it that'd contain latest stable KDE SC. It's basically the same like with KDE:KDE3. Either somebody does the work or not, and he who does the work decides, wishing does not make it happen. And somebody who'd actually use this repository clearly has much better motivation to work on it. So just somebody say you'd take care of the repo and you can have it. Doing stable KDE updates is not that much work (besides being somewhat time-consuming), it could leverage a lot of work from STABLE/Factory, and people who do the work now would be certainly somewhat more willing to help there by means of howtos or having look at complicated problems or whatever reasonable if they knew they wouldn't end up with yet another time-sink. So if you want and can (or are willing to learn), just raise your hand, otherwise, sorry, we currently do not have the resources to also maintain a latest stable KDE SC repo. Life sucks, it's not perfect and there is no free lunch.
You have to switch repos all the time and when you use Factory, just hope that Novell does not backport some alpha-quality from UNSTABLE to Factory. Back in the day when Novell prepared openSUSE 11.1 / SLED 11, Novell backported some Plasma features from UNSTABLE (then a 4.2 pre-release) to Factory's 4.1. The result was that KDE was unusable for a week or so.
Maybe that's the reason why it's said that all those repositories are officially unsupported and people should stick only to repos that come with the distribution if they don't want to take any risk? -- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-01-12 at 22:18 +0100, Marco Röben wrote:
STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version
I don't actually think this is the maintainer's definition of STABLE. It was at least meant to be "the version of KDE from the current openSUSE version, backported to previous openSUSE versions". I know with the 4.3.4 thing they put it in there for 11.2 to get some additional testing before the maintenance update, but I don't think that changes the idea of the repository Testing before maintenance updates is usually done from the various project repositories, but there is no real standard for it. Sometimes it's done in the maintainer's home: repository. Maybe there should be a standard repository where updates are put before being 'officially' released. Something like openSUSE:/11.2:/Update:/Test for example, which is there but doesn't seem to be used for very much Anders -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 13 of January 2010, Anders Johansson wrote:
On Tue, 2010-01-12 at 22:18 +0100, Marco Röben wrote:
STABLE: testing ground for updates of the recent opensuse version
I don't actually think this is the maintainer's definition of STABLE. It was at least meant to be "the version of KDE from the current openSUSE version, backported to previous openSUSE versions".
It is part of the definition. STABLE contains what the latest openSUSE release contains, including the online updates. As such, it is a testing ground for online updates, since we put them there first and with a delay (e.g. after smaller fixes accumulate) we release them as online updates. STABLE also being practice a backport of that specific version to older openSUSE releases is a result of the fact that we also build KDE repos on older distros. When reasonable, which means that we see it as nice effort of something that is low effort - if something in STABLE non-trivially breaks on older distros, it'll just get disabled.
I know with the 4.3.4 thing they put it in there for 11.2 to get some additional testing before the maintenance update, but I don't think that changes the idea of the repository
Testing before maintenance updates is usually done from the various project repositories, but there is no real standard for it. Sometimes it's done in the maintainer's home: repository. Maybe there should be a standard repository where updates are put before being 'officially' released. Something like openSUSE:/11.2:/Update:/Test
This repo is used for testing online updates right before they are released and is not KDE specific. I.e. KDE changes for online updates go to STABLE first, then are submitted for 11.2, where they first go to Update:Test and finally to Update. Our STABLE is an extra, we use it to help us with the work.
for example, which is there but doesn't seem to be used for very much
-- Lubos Lunak openSUSE Boosters team, KDE developer l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Hi!
I consider myself as a pure user who is interested in the stuff you, the developers, are doing. From the developer side I'm able to understand how the kde repo's are separated. But we (the users) often want to install the most recent kde version. As far as I understand there is no repo one could use to install the recent stable kde version.
I am also a only a user. The only thing I do to help is some bugscreening, if time allows. (Everybody can help with that for what it's worth, see http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/BugSquashing )
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is _no_ single repo, which allows this. It depends on the time in the openSUSE development circle, as it was explained several times already. And I can give you a reason why in my opinion such a repo should not be created. It does not only mean work to create such a repo, it also means additional work regarding bug reports. There is already a too large number of bug reports for KDE on bugzilla.novell.com. It is in my opinion actually too large to be handled properly by the actual developers. It is easily possible at the moment that an important bug report is missed by them. There are on the one hand lots of reports which should have gone upstream to bugs.kde.org and there are also many reports for KDE versions (such as 4.2 or 4.3.4 [when it was not clear that it will be released as an online update]) which were never released with a stable openSUSE version and as such do not affect openSUSE development directly. An additional repo will only increase these. Which in my opinion will only increase the possibility that important reports are overlooked and will therefor decrease the quality of KDE in openSUSE (the stock version). Kind regards, Christian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 13. Januar 2010 08:32:01 schrieb Christian Trippe:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is _no_ single repo, which allows this. It depends on the time in the openSUSE development circle, as it was explained several times already.
I somehow guessed this will be the answer to my question.
And I can give you a reason why in my opinion such a repo should not be created.
It does not only mean work to create such a repo, it also means additional work regarding bug reports.
I got your point and I really understand this problem regarding the bug reports. But nevertheless I think there should be something like a "stable factory" repo. Something like a snapshot of the factory repo in which a user can update and be sure that kde will start. I mean if someone is updating the system most often it is because he or she is annoyed of some small bug that exists in the current version and (maybe) this bug is gone in a more recent one. Isn't it what the monthly updates from kde are for? So there should be the possibility to do such an update. But there is the chance to install the recent version from factory at a bad time. A moment when some bigger changes by the opensuse developers are doing more harm than good. Don't get me wrong, in the end everything will be fine. It's just the small time period when it is not wise to install the recent factory packages. This is the point I want to make. As a non developer who is working on the factory packages you have no chance to see such a situation coming. So why not have an separate factory repo that have a copy of some "stable" state of the original factory repo? This snapshot could be done once a month, e.g. after a new kde release. Some thoughts from my side on a late evening... best regards Marco -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 13. Januar 2010 22:30:48 schrieb Marco Röben:
Am Mittwoch, 13. Januar 2010 08:32:01 schrieb Christian Trippe:
What repo can I use to install the recent stable kde sc as it is released from kde?
There is _no_ single repo, which allows this. It depends on the time in the openSUSE development circle, as it was explained several times already.
I somehow guessed this will be the answer to my question.
And I can give you a reason why in my opinion such a repo should not be created.
It does not only mean work to create such a repo, it also means additional work regarding bug reports.
I got your point and I really understand this problem regarding the bug reports.
But nevertheless I think there should be something like a "stable factory" repo. Something like a snapshot of the factory repo in which a user can update and be sure that kde will start.
That's the weak point in your wish, nobody has the time to assure this bundle will start on most machines, nobody can test that without putting resources into that. This is what Lubos explained quite nicely, the workforce is spread thin, so it goes into keeping the current release going and making the next release rok even more. If someone finds the time to maintain such a repository in his free time he has everything on his hands to do this and will most likely get help from the team, but only asking for it gets no work done. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-kde+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Anders Johansson
-
Basil Chupin
-
Christian Trippe
-
Karsten König
-
Lubos Lunak
-
Marco Röben
-
Markus
-
Martin Schlander
-
Patrick Shanahan