Luca Beltrame writes:

Meaning that it will become the default for new and existing installs. There were several mails sent detailing the plan in the past weeks (in particular the "Action plans" mentions this).

Yes, but there is still no clear statement what that does to an existing install.

...

automatism be defeated so that a manual switch-over can be done at some more convenient time?

No, at the moment it cannot be done: the new Plasma packages will upgrade existing 4.x ones.

I understand that, but can I keep kdebase4-session installed (and therefor plasma5-session uninstalled) until I'm ready to spend the week or so to rebuild my desktop settings (that includes at the minimum shortcuts, workspaces, special applications and windows settings based on my test with Plasma 5.2)? By "keep it installed" I mean it's still in TW for some time, not just me locking the package and hoping things continue to work. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptations for Waldorf Q V3.00R3 and Q+ V3.54R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame writes:

Achim Gratz wrote:

...

Yes, but there is still no clear statement what that does to an existing install.

All KF5-based applications that have had a stable release in the recent 15.04 release will replace their 4.x equivalents. The workspace will be replaced with Plasma 5.3.

...

I understand that, but can I keep kdebase4-session installed (and

No, you can't. The Plasma 5.3 packages obsoletes the 4.x equivalents. This is by purpose.

...

in TW for some time, not just me locking the package and hoping things continue to work.

The only way to prevent the update is to lock your packages. Notice that most KF5-based applications will migrate their settings from their 4.x equivalents. If this doesn't work, please file a bug upstream.

You continue to ignore or misunderstand the question I asked: currently we have both Plasma 5.2 and KDE4.x in TW. The default currently is KDE 4.x and Plasma 5.2 can be installed manually (which de-installs KDE 4.x). Again: When Plasma 5.3 becomes the default, will I have the choice of sticking with KDE 4.x for some time (and if yes, for how long)? Locking isn't really a solution I'm looking forward to, for a variety of reasons. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptations for KORG EX-800 and Poly-800MkII V0.9: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KorgSDada -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame writes:

IOW, There will be NO Plasma 4.x workspace anymore after the upgrade. The packages will be no longer available. So if you want to keep it, you will have to use a lock.

So it's not a "change of default", but a big-bang update of the KDE desktop. I ask you again to re-consider keeping the old packages available for a transition period instead of forcing people to rely on the packages they have installed on the system.

Reasons for the update have been written lots of times, so there's no need to repeat them ad libitum.

"Ad infinitum" was the phrase you were looking for. Please note I've not questioned the update itself, so those reasons don't enter the picture. I was just asking exactly how you were trying to handle the transition. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptations for KORG EX-800 and Poly-800MkII V0.9: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KorgSDada -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame writes:

It's been announced two months ago, including a call for tests, and Hrvoje also made a live media available.

I did test and my conclusion was (based on Plasma 5.2, since that's the version available in TW) that I would need several days to get the desktop configured back to roughly were I would leave it plus some definite and some possible loss of functionality.

Most of the feedback was however very demotivating and not quite constructive, so, like I said at the time, decisions will be made, not discussed.

How you suppose that this increases your chances of getting the feedback you seem to want is not clear to me. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Samples for the Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldSamplesExtra -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Graham P Davis wrote:

I've tested 5.3 and I'm sorry to say that is not ready for me to use as it still has the bug that shunts everything onto desktop-1 on every

Did you file a bug upstream? I can't reproduce it here (and I have a series of complex layouts), on 3 different machines all running TW. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 3 May 2015 22:26:28 +0200 Robert Kaiser wrote:

Luca Beltrame schrieb:

...

Graham P Davis wrote:

...

I've tested 5.3 and I'm sorry to say that is not ready for me to use as it still has the bug that shunts everything onto desktop-1 on every

Did you file a bug upstream? I can't reproduce it here (and I have a series of complex layouts), on 3 different machines all running TW.

I'm pretty sure he means https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341930 which is also a complete blocker for me to upgrade to Plasma 5.

Yes, that's the one. I agree that it's a complete blocker and just wish that importance of "normal" could be changed to something more realistic. -- Graham Davis [Retired Fortran programmer - now a mere computer user] openSUSE Tumbleweed (64-bit); KDE 4.14.6; Kernel: 4.0.0; Processor: AMD Phenom II X2 550; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame writes:

Achim Gratz wrote:

...

How you suppose that this increases your chances of getting the feedback you seem to want is not clear to me.

After saying that some feature will be back in Plasma 5.3 and getting answers as "I'll believe it when I see it", I understood there was no point in asking.

Here on this list, all I'm trying to discuss is the transition plan (or lack thereof) from KDE 4.x to Plasma5. If you want to continue that other discussion, please do it where it was started. I've been using SuSE as my main desktop since 1999 and essentially updated that initial installation until today, migrating it to the third computer so far. When I moved to Tumbleweed (again, not on a throwaway installation or VM) it was defined as "the latest release plus the newest kernel plus whatever GKH thinks is stable enough to be used". I needed the newest kernel at the time to work around some serious bugs with my second machine, but the Git, KDE and LibreOffic updates were welcome additions, too. Tumbleweed got redefined to a fully rolling distribution in the meantime, ostensibly with the goal of having more real-world users test the latest and greatest stuff after the automated testing has weeded out the biggest bugs. So far that risk seemed acceptable and manageable to me, so I continued to use TW and so far I think I've been getting a good deal. The Plasma5 update you are planning to do is redefining Tumbleweed again, and in some ways destroys the original promise of "safe for daily work" completely. There is no way to go back and you even intend of forcing that big transition at a time that the user can not control (actually you can't control it either since it will come around when testing is complete). Sure, I can hold off on updates, but that's not going to work for long since I wouldn't be getting security updates either. Trying to lock KDE 4.x for a while on my own is an option, but of course if it breaks (the packages are no longer in TW as well, so no automated tests either) then you're going to tell me that I should update. If I update and things break you're going to tell me to file upstream bugs. Going back to 13.2 is also not really an option at this point in time. I don't know about you, but the potential havoc does decrease the appeal of TW by several notches for me. If you continue to want real-world users on TW you need to mitigate some of these concerns. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame writes:

We had plenty of mails on the transition plan. There were both sent on opensuse-kde and opensuse-factory. There is no such thing as "lack thereof".

Yes, there is. The update is not migrating the old desktop settings (I'm not talking about the applications) and there is also no tool to even find out which settings have been customized from the defaults. It's all manual, laborious work to get things back the way you had it before (where it is even possible). If anything goes wrong or you simply run out of time, then there's no way back. That is a recipe for users going ballistic, not a transition plan. It doesn't help that same scenario has been played out before and those who have been burned are still remembering that pain.

We've been working for this way before this was announced, often testing stuff ourselves (and yes, sometimes breaking our desktops, too).

How would that feel if that was the only desktop you use daily?

I see however that it was all a waste of my and the other team members' time.

How so? The fact that you've not looked at some aspect of the transition doesn't devalue your work in other areas.

...

The Plasma5 update you are planning to do is redefining Tumbleweed

Why? It is an officially supported upstream, stable release.

It completely ignores that anybody would have a desktop that had been growing from KDE 1.1.2 days to the current state that they want to migrate.

...

I don't know about you, but the potential havoc does decrease the appeal of TW by several notches for me. If you continue to want real-world users on TW you need to mitigate some of these concerns.

That's why we waited for 3 full releases from upstream, testing stuff, fixing stuff ourselves if it was within our reach, polishing package updates, etc over the past 9 months. We didn't sit idly and then say "lo and behold, thou shalt use Plasma 5" all of a sudden.

I can see that this works for a new install. I don't want to do a new install or the moral equivalent of it, I want to update.

This was precisely to address "concerns", to ensure that the result was of

Please lose the airquotes. Just because you don't share the concerns doesn't mean they're invalid.

acceptable quality for the distribution (see the evaluation mails on opensuse-kde), to ensure that openQA tests ran on it (maxlin did a great job with those) and passed properly. We also tested (as best as we could) package updates, obsoletes, etc...

This again doesn't adress the migration aspect.

We engaged with the upstream community to ensure that what we were bringing to Tumbleweed was good enough, filing reports and poking developers if need be (I can recall several occasions where I nagged Plasma team members to fix multiscreen issues), and also watching on responses from the userbase (doing user support on the official KDE forums helped me to check on the responses from other distros, too).

Does this mean that the transition will be perfect? Absolutely not. But we tried, the best we could, to do our homework, because we wanted to give the best transition possible to TW users.

Again, the transition as it is apparently about to happen real soon now is not a migration to Plasma5, but losing the KDE 4.x desktop settings completely and having to set up a new shop using Plasma5. All I am still asking for is to allow users to chose when they have to do that chore since the ship has apparently long sailed w.r.t. proper migration. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Blofeld: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

@ Luca Actually this is my first mail on this list, but I feel it is necessary nonetheless. Do not let reservations of some users discourage your efforts. I use tumbleweed as a daily driver both at work and at home. For me the installation has been broken several times (I suspect BtrFS to be the culprit, at work I use Ext4) since I switched to TW (on my private laptop). But this is to be expected from a rolling release. Imo if stability is a critical issue one should not entirely rely on TW. I am looking very much forward to plasma 5.3. Keep up the good work. Am 03.05.2015 um 20:41 schrieb Luca Beltrame:

Achim Gratz wrote:

...

Here on this list, all I'm trying to discuss is the transition plan (or lack thereof) from KDE 4.x to Plasma5. If you want to continue that We had plenty of mails on the transition plan. There were both sent on opensuse-kde and opensuse-factory. There is no such thing as "lack thereof". We've been working for this way before this was announced, often testing stuff ourselves (and yes, sometimes breaking our desktops, too).

I see however that it was all a waste of my and the other team members' time.

...

The Plasma5 update you are planning to do is redefining Tumbleweed Why? It is an officially supported upstream, stable release.

...

I don't know about you, but the potential havoc does decrease the appeal of TW by several notches for me. If you continue to want real-world users on TW you need to mitigate some of these concerns. That's why we waited for 3 full releases from upstream, testing stuff, fixing stuff ourselves if it was within our reach, polishing package updates, etc over the past 9 months. We didn't sit idly and then say "lo and behold, thou shalt use Plasma 5" all of a sudden.

This was precisely to address "concerns", to ensure that the result was of acceptable quality for the distribution (see the evaluation mails on opensuse-kde), to ensure that openQA tests ran on it (maxlin did a great job with those) and passed properly. We also tested (as best as we could) package updates, obsoletes, etc...

We engaged with the upstream community to ensure that what we were bringing to Tumbleweed was good enough, filing reports and poking developers if need be (I can recall several occasions where I nagged Plasma team members to fix multiscreen issues), and also watching on responses from the userbase (doing user support on the official KDE forums helped me to check on the responses from other distros, too).

Does this mean that the transition will be perfect? Absolutely not. But we tried, the best we could, to do our homework, because we wanted to give the best transition possible to TW users.

And that is exactly why I find the tone of some messages (here and otherwise) full of stop energy (but that is not something confined to KDE... I've seen this also in other areas of the openSUSE community, but this is not the right thread nor the right ML for it).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Oh, and I forgot about the system tray: works only with some kde apps, doens't work for thunderbird, teamviewer, dropbox and many other apps. (you cannot see the icons in the system tray!). There are only horrible work around (like having another system tray somewhere in the desktop!) This is totally unacceptable... Best regards, Alessandro Russo Il 03/05/2015 23:33, Alessandro Russo ha scritto:

Please, don't force us to upgrade to Plasma 5.3, it isn't ready for production environment, it lacks fundamental abilities like session management: with the Plasma desktop 4 when you close your session the position, size, virtual desktop location of any open app is saved and restored when you reopen the session. The same works for many kde apps like konsole, kate, konqueror, and so on: the internal tabs are stored and restored when you reopen the session. On Plasma 5.3 this doesn't work! See this bug reports: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341930 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=346768

And read what Thomas Lübking write: /"It's not the same bug, but related - session management somewhat "largely" changed and was not or not sufficiently ported (I ran pretty much through the code yesterday and then figured that for some reason the sessionKey() changes _very_ early during the application start, so right now kwin reloads the "wrong" session config. Got to figure where it changes tonight ;-)

So please notice that even if (optimitically: when) this bug closes, *t**hat does NOT mean session management in KF5 apps would completely work as it does in KDE SC4*. I assume the vast majority of clients needs to be ported by hand (ie. eg. konsole is oc. responsible for managign its tab layout, this is nothing the WM could even possibly do)"/

Plasma 5.3 still has very few plasmoid ported, many are missing, it's in an unfinished state. I started using KDE before 1.0 (when the K was for kool) and the situation now is worse than in the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. I was using KUbuntu but with 15.4 they upgraded to Plasma 5.2 and my beautiful desktop was gone. Now I'm appreciating the solidity of openSuse but please don't force us to upgrade yet!

Please wait some other months, Plasma 5.4 will be more stable, more complete and usable than 5.3

Alessandro Russo

came from Kubuntu, they Il 03/05/2015 20:41, Luca Beltrame ha scritto:

...

Achim Gratz wrote:

...

Here on this list, all I'm trying to discuss is the transition plan (or lack thereof) from KDE 4.x to Plasma5. If you want to continue that We had plenty of mails on the transition plan. There were both sent on opensuse-kde and opensuse-factory. There is no such thing as "lack thereof". We've been working for this way before this was announced, often testing stuff ourselves (and yes, sometimes breaking our desktops, too).

I see however that it was all a waste of my and the other team members' time.

...

The Plasma5 update you are planning to do is redefining Tumbleweed Why? It is an officially supported upstream, stable release.

...

I don't know about you, but the potential havoc does decrease the appeal of TW by several notches for me. If you continue to want real-world users on TW you need to mitigate some of these concerns. That's why we waited for 3 full releases from upstream, testing stuff, fixing stuff ourselves if it was within our reach, polishing package updates, etc over the past 9 months. We didn't sit idly and then say "lo and behold, thou shalt use Plasma 5" all of a sudden.

This was precisely to address "concerns", to ensure that the result was of acceptable quality for the distribution (see the evaluation mails on opensuse-kde), to ensure that openQA tests ran on it (maxlin did a great job with those) and passed properly. We also tested (as best as we could) package updates, obsoletes, etc...

We engaged with the upstream community to ensure that what we were bringing to Tumbleweed was good enough, filing reports and poking developers if need be (I can recall several occasions where I nagged Plasma team members to fix multiscreen issues), and also watching on responses from the userbase (doing user support on the official KDE forums helped me to check on the responses from other distros, too).

Does this mean that the transition will be perfect? Absolutely not. But we tried, the best we could, to do our homework, because we wanted to give the best transition possible to TW users.

And that is exactly why I find the tone of some messages (here and otherwise) full of stop energy (but that is not something confined to KDE... I've seen this also in other areas of the openSUSE community, but this is not the right thread nor the right ML for it).

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Yes to Plasma 5.3! Not everyone on this list thinks its totally unacceptable. Keep going good opensuse team :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Alessandro, On 4 May 2015 at 07:18, Alessandro Russo wrote:

We're not against Plasma 5.3, we only want to a have the choice to continue using kde 4 until all the showstopper bugs are fixed.

I don't think you understand the *huge* amount of work you are asking for when you request KDE 4 in parallel with Plasma 5 This isn't a simple case of 'oh, you don't need to touch what you've done in the past, just do new stuff in parallel' Keeping any desktop environment working in any Linux distribution is a herculean effort, especially when you consider the requirements of maintenance updates, security, and ongoing integration In the case of KDE 4 vs 5, the situation is even more complex as you have to factor in the upstream projects way they're handling the transition. If KDE were maintaining KDE 4 in parallel to 5, then for us in openSUSE it would be easy, we'd be in a position to their their still maintained KDE 4 stuff and slide it alongside the new shiny KDE 5 stuff But that's not how it is (and I don't think that's a bad thing). The reality is, the KDE upstream project is no longer maintainer KDE 4. Do you know what that means for our KDE team in openSUSE? If they want to do what you ask, they'd have to do a ton more work just to keep KDE 4 at the level of quality you're expecting. As things move in Tumbleweed, they'd have a harder and harder time keeping KDE 4 working, integrated with the rest of the stack, and this would be a huge expense in terms of their personal time and effort - This would be time and effort they wouldn't be able to spend on helping make Plasma 5 better, so it's basically a 'dead end', it might ease the pain for a short period of time, but eventually you'd end up in the same place, and Plasma 5 would probably not be as good as it could be in the same time, so it really would solve nothing for openSUSE's users in the long run Our KDE team have spent a huge amount of thought on trying to handle this transition in the best way for everyone, themselves, upstream KDE, and our users. They waited until Plasma 5.3 because they think this is the time it's ready to be used, maybe not for every corner case, maybe not every old feature, maybe people need to learn new things and try our different stuff, but it's a judgement call which they worked on very hard, for a very long time, in order to provide openSUSE with the best KDE experience they can provide I understand change is scary, but the best way of dealing with that is getting involved and helping steer the change in the direction you want. If you really, really, really, think KDE 4 needs to somehow be maintained for longer, then find people to help you make that happen, but I don't think that will be the opensuse-kde team, they looked at it, hard, discussed it harder, and made this decision based on the knowledge, expertise, and experience which they've built up as a very long time. Also, please try your best to understand & respect the huge amount of effort our opensuse-kde Team have put into this move before writing emails that can be construed as 'stop everything, we don't want change, everything you've been working on for ages is a bad idea', because there is nothing more demotivating, and a demotivated opensuse-kde team that's not firing on all cylinders doing awesome work will ultimately hurt KDE on openSUSE far worse than some desktop rough edges when 5.3 hits Tumbleweed Thanks, Richard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 04 of May 2015 19:53:19 Alessandro Russo wrote:

Il 04/05/2015 08:15, Richard Brown ha scritto:

...

Hi Alessandro,

On 4 May 2015 at 07:18, Alessandro Russo wrote:

...

We're not against Plasma 5.3, we only want to a have the choice to continue using kde 4 until all the showstopper bugs are fixed.

I don't think you understand the *huge* amount of work you are asking for when you request KDE 4 in parallel with Plasma 5

...]

...

Also, please try your best to understand & respect the huge amount of effort our opensuse-kde Team have put into this move before writing emails that can be construed as 'stop everything, we don't want change, everything you've been working on for ages is a bad idea', because there is nothing more demotivating, and a demotivated opensuse-kde team that's not firing on all cylinders doing awesome work will ultimately hurt KDE on openSUSE far worse than some desktop rough edges when 5.3 hits Tumbleweed

Thanks,

Richard.

Can we at least have a way to keep using KDE 4 while it go in an unmaintained state? No.

Alessandro

Luca Beltrame schrieb:

šumski wrote:

...

...

Can we at least have a way to keep using KDE 4 while it go in an unmaintained state? No.

To elaborate further a bit: there are lots of technical reasons for not doing so, including maintainability of the packages.

Sounds like I need to look out for a different distro or desktop environment then. Is there a good alternative that still supports KDE4, or is there a desktop environment that supports session restore and a system tray that can cope with Hexchat and Vidyo properly? KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bjørn Lie schrieb:

That being said, you are aware that this is Tumbleweed? The rolling release distro from openSUSE, where constant version updates are the norm, heck people complain when we lag a couple of point releases of on the kernel shipped.

Yes, but that doesn't preclude it from being used on my daily-use "production" desktop system. I have done that with Factory for years, but it looks like the change to "Tumbleweed" may mean that it gets too unusable for doing that - which actually sounds the wrong way around, given what the intent of this change was. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bjørn Lie schrieb:

ma., 04.05.2015 kl. 22.49 +0200, skrev Robert Kaiser:

...

Yes, but that doesn't preclude it from being used on my daily-use "production" desktop system. I have done that with Factory for years, but it looks like the change to "Tumbleweed" may mean that it gets too unusable for doing that - which actually sounds the wrong way around, given what the intent of this change was.

KaiRo

And in those years, you have never had a bigger issue than a tray icon not working? - Damn! KDE team must be doing one fantastic job!

They indeed have been in the past. And openSUSE has done a great job overall, any issues I had were fixed by some fiddling around or within a short time (other than the fact that I can't get auto-setting of DNS/resolv.conf to work so I can't use VPN on this machine and need to use the laptop any time I need VPN). But now they have broken things that I rely on heavily, and as I spend 60+ hours a week in front of this computer and I depend on IRC (Hexchat) heavily for work, breaking its tray icon is something I can't live with as I am required to react to pings on IRC fast. And losing session restore would mean a big hassle every morning and me being grumpy every day I start work.

Now what can you Robert do to keep your KDE 4? - Well we have this fantastic tool, OBS. Branch off all the needed KDE 4 packages from current Factory, de-link them, work on making them parallel installable with plasma, ask for help from fellow users that want to keep KDE 4 around, get everything working, get a devel repo, and submit the packages back to Factory, get them ack'ed in or not - in any case, KDE 4 can live on in a own repo - someone just needs to do the work, and one can not expect other volunteers to do it for you.

I don't have the time for that, I already have a 45h-per-week IT job. But thanks for pissing me off even more. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Luca Beltrame schrieb:

Robert Kaiser wrote:

...

But now they have broken things that I rely on heavily, and as I spend 60+ hours a week in front of this computer and I depend on IRC (Hexchat)

FYI, appindicator (which means it will also work on Plasma 5) support for hexchat is WIP: https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat/issues/1235

Thanks for the pointer, you might have seen that I commented on that issue a few times already. ;-) It's concerning to me though that the developer says he can't merge the work because that would results in a loos of features which would make users of other desktop environments complain: https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat/issues/1235#issuecomment-87425826 It's sad that apparently the newer tray standard has fewer features than what was supported in the past. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, May 05, 2015 03:24:10 PM Robert Kaiser wrote:

Bjørn Lie schrieb:

...

And in those years, you have never had a bigger issue than a tray icon not working? - Damn! KDE team must be doing one fantastic job!

They indeed have been in the past. And openSUSE has done a great job overall, any issues I had were fixed by some fiddling around or within a short time (other than the fact that I can't get auto-setting of DNS/resolv.conf to work so I can't use VPN on this machine and need to use the laptop any time I need VPN).

But now they have broken things that I rely on heavily, and as I spend

And about which KDE team are we actually talking about ??

60+ hours a week in front of this computer and I depend on IRC (Hexchat) heavily for work, breaking its tray icon is something I can't live with

Well, the tray icon would break anyway and maybe even while running Gnome. The Xembed system trays are not working under Wayland and it seems that the major desktops are moving towards Wayland. I believe Gnome can already run under native Wayland and also Plasma 5 should be able to do this with version 5.4. As I noticed you already raised this issue with upstream of Hexchat and they seem reluctant to start supporting this new method, which would cause only more issues in the future. Also hexchat is not a package that is provided by openSUSE.

as I am required to react to pings on IRC fast. And losing session restore would mean a big hassle every morning and me being grumpy every day I start work.

If you need a systray option for hexchat, then maybe you should try wmsystemtray. This is a small program that lives on the desktop and provides an xembed systemtray for those programs that can not use the statusnotifyer one. Just search on OBS to find it.

I don't have the time for that, I already have a 45h-per-week IT job. But thanks for pissing me off even more.

And of course the openSUSE KDE community team does not have a fulltime job and they are just there to wait for problems of openSUSE users and fix them. Thanks for pissing me off big time !! You should keep in mind that we are all volunteers that are working just for fun and trying to create a great distribution. The community team also has full time jobs and we are using our spare time (which we could spend with our families, etc) just to keep the KDE packages in the right shape, trying to work together with upstream to fix issues, etc. So if you do not have time, because of your job, what about us ??? Maybe next time, just keep in mind that we are all just VOLUNTEERS with a FULL-TIME job as well. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck composed on 2015-05-05 17:17 (UTC+0200):

just keep in mind that we are all just VOLUNTEERS with a FULL-TIME job as well.

If "all" is indeed true, it's still easier said than done. IIUC, openSUSE has a substantial paid staff in the form of SLE people. Also it's a large distribution. Such characteristics make it hard for some people to notice or remember who is really speaking at any given time, though we do sometimes get clues in the form of novell.com, suse.de or suse.com email addresses. Some things are definitely not a lot of fun. That doesn't mean they don't need doing anyway. One of the unfuns seems to be accepting criticism as feedback on what needs doing, didn't (yet) get done, or might never get done, particularly WRT the whole of KDE, upstreams (including QT) and down. KDE people on the whole seem particularly sensitive, trying to take every complaint first as disappreciation for the effort contributed before seeing it as descriptions of shortcomings in results of efforts. Those results, or lack thereof, are what smack users in the face and provoke the feedback (expected here on opensuse-factory as a devel forum more than a help forum), not the contributions underlying the results. Puters are tools. For most users of most tools, functionality matters far more than pretty, if pretty even matters at all. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Raymond Wooninck composed on 2015-05-06 09:31 (UTC+0200):

...At this moment we have a team of 4 people...

You are constantly talking about that we are particular sensitive, etc. Did you ever really read through all the comments we got.

I read until it gets involved in apps I never use, then skip to next, so I could have missed something about Konsole buried under a mountain of Ktorrent, Kopete or Kmail.

And not only now, but also in the past 2 years. There has been a constant stream of complaints about every little thing we did or tried to do.

I don't think the complaints have had much if anything to do with what the 4 openSUSE people do. The complaints are about upstream's work product, decision making, policy, and attitude on KDE mailing lists, bugs.kde.org and forums. It's what mine have been at least. But many complaints go here instead of upstream because here is a comfort zone, AND, we know at least some of "the four" communicate with upstream probably a lot better than users and mere testers do.

What we asked for is constructive feedback to help us moving things forward and to properly address things. Did we got that, no.

You asked to have bugs filed. Some of us did that. I did that, and commented to confirm reproduction of recently filed bugs. Filing bugs is generally constructive. Nobody gets everything they want. What the collective you wanted was 100% positive, 0% negative, and "you" didn't get it. Then "you" see the resulting cup half empty instead of half full, or because not entirely full, entirely empty. Bugs are problems, faults, imperfections, aggravations, impediments. Such things are hard to filter out in a forum whose very purpose in large part is identifying problems so that they might be corrected. But then once a behavior is identified, before it can be corrected, there typically needs to be consensus what the best correction should be, if even any correction should be made at all. There's no way all this can be candy coated 100% positive. Painting a happy face on problems is hard. Some people are better at it than others. Some don't even try. But there's also interpretation and language issues involved here. One man's constructive can be another's negative. Often there's a mixture of both, particularly more negative when an issue is a nagging old issue that involves tedium or worse to do anything about and gets put off and put off and put off in favor of fun things. I wrote what I wrote about sensitivity because that's what it looks like when a complaint about a complaint occurs, as if the complaint were directed to the messenger (the four) rather than the product (upstream).

I know that most likely only a minority of the openSUSE community is the one most active on the mailinglists, but this minority is ruining the motivation of people that are actually doing things.

Believe it or not, even though I'm not a programmer, I am doing things intended to benefit KDE and openSUSE. I install, I update, I test, and sometimes I even work on the Wiki. Then I report, mostly not about what works, but what doesn't, often resulting in bugs filed both upstream and not. I don't have to do anything, but I do what I do to the betterment of both KDE and openSUSE, and this in spite of the fact that I don't find V4/V5 suitable for personal use, and find a lot of what I do tedious and little fun. It isn't just "the four" that are being discouraged by what is and is not happening.

Can you tell me why I should continue for something that I am not being paid for, doing it in my spare time besides a full-time job, instead of spending this time with my family, friends and doing things that are more rewarding ???

But congratulations. You managed really to take the fun I had with openSUSE complety away

If you don't like it, find something you do like. Better to be poor and happy than rich and miserable. For sure if you can find something you like better that pays you too, go for it. You could learn to not let the parts that bother you affect you, see the glass half full, and find whatever good is mixed amongst what you perceive to be bad.

and I would be happy to hand everything over to you and that you start maintaining packages. Maybe I will keep on using openSUSE and then I can start complaining to you that I am missing functionality, etc.

Which is more constructive, feedback perceived as negative, or no feedback at all? If I was a programmer or packager, and for sure I'm not and unlikely ever will be, I'd rather gorge on the negative than get nothing, then wind up with a repeat of the infamous KDE3 to KDE4 transition because I wasn't aware there were material problems particularly for "upgraders". That you want it to be ready and are tired of the dreg of trying to reach a ready state in a lengthy and complicated ground up rebuild from scratch does not equate to ready to unleash on mere mortal users assuming newer equates to better. I commend "the four" for the restraint they've managed so far in balancing upstream's enthusiasm for their new baby against the realities of users who don't like having "fixed" what ain't broke trying to get real work done with the complicated tools that computers are. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06.05.2015 13:45, Robert Kaiser wrote:

Raymond Wooninck schrieb:

...

And about which KDE team are we actually talking about ??

I realize I didn't answer that. I'm pretty sure all the issues are caused in actual KDE development, the openSUSE packaging team is probably not involved in those. That said, the packaging is what gets me upset right now, as it's a "take it or die" proposition right now on TW, whereas I'd like to wait with upgrading just a little while, so I would have liked it much better to have the KDE4 packages around just for, say, the time until Plasma 5.4 is available, so people don't need to

And then 5.5 and then 5.6, and then ... - again: if you want something in openSUSE to be done in a specific way, do it yourself. If can't or don't want to: stop demotivating those that do. Do I look forward to switch desktops? Not exactly. Do I accept the decision of the KDE team to require it? Yes, absolutely. I had my chances. Upstream KDE moved on and so should we. Greetings, Stephan -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlVKBbMACgkQwFSBhlBjoJYr6gCfc7fDr8EulirfFudUmDvrntcg oSwAoK/qmDGgvyiyN4GYV3QNqzvG4NPt =oRYs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 06.05.2015 um 14:52 schrieb Robert Kaiser:

If you want Firefox quality to suffer, you can force me to upgrade to Plasma 5 today.

But you know that there are "a few" other desktop environments available on openSUSE that you could use? Just asking... :-P -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 06.05.2015 um 21:08 schrieb Felix Miata:

Thankfully, openSUSE users have an easy to use package locking system. I foresee expanded use of locks in the very near future if serious improvements from upstream don't come very quickly, among which a fix for confirmed https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=340982 which in turn depends on upstream QT.

Good. Now that you have forseen our future, let's move to it! Greetings, Stephan -- Ma muaß weiterkämpfen, kämpfen bis zum Umfalln, a wenn die ganze Welt an Arsch offen hat, oder grad deswegn. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2015-05-04 17:38 GMT-03:00 Bjørn Lie :

ma., 04.05.2015 kl. 22.10 +0200, skrev Robert Kaiser:

...

Luca Beltrame schrieb:

...

šumski wrote:

...

...

Can we at least have a way to keep using KDE 4 while it go in an unmaintained state? No.

To elaborate further a bit: there are lots of technical reasons for not doing so, including maintainability of the packages.

Sounds like I need to look out for a different distro or desktop environment then. Is there a good alternative that still supports KDE4, or is there a desktop environment that supports session restore and a system tray that can cope with Hexchat and Vidyo properly?

KaiRo

You are free to use openSUSE 13.2/13.1 with KDE 4 for the reminder of their support period (for 13.2 that is at least an other year or so, and for 13.1 if that goes evergreen even longer). When the next stable release of openSUSE is shipped, I wouldn't be surprised if all your current issues are resolved.

That being said, you are aware that this is Tumbleweed? The rolling release distro from openSUSE, where constant version updates are the norm, heck people complain when we lag a couple of point releases of on the kernel shipped.

Or someone who wants KDE4 forever could do what someone did for KDE3... Create a repo and mantain it. Regards Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

ti., 05.05.2015 kl. 00.10 +0200, skrev Alessandro Russo:

Can you give us some hints, howtos, faqs?

Best regards, Alessandro

I suggest you start a new thread here on the mailing-list, ask for fellow users to join in the effort. Form a team/work-group. (Also reach out on the forums, so-me and irc). Getting people already familiar with the obs will make your task much lighter. If you are brand new to packaging, read the wiki, https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial Get yourself a build.opensuse.org account (if you have a bugzilla or forum user, this is your buildservice account, just log in). Watch a few videos. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8ZeyzbaXLU - Marcus has a great session for new packagers there, also browse the channel for more input). But most importantly - you do NOT need permission to do something in openSUSE, just do it - no one will stop you! Our tools are open and freely available for anyone. //Bjørn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 5. Mai 2015, 11:30:45 schrieb Raymond Wooninck:

My proposal would be that if there are people ready to take the KDE4 maintenance task, then please let us know and I will copy the whole KDE:Current project to a new project named KDE:KDE4 and grant full access to this project to those new maintainers. This would be a very good starting point, given that actually everything is inside that project.

Probably not a bad idea, at least for while. (I don't really see much point in keeping KDE4 "forever" like it's being done with KDE3. Plasma5 is not really something completely different like KDE4's Plasma was...) I would definitely help out here. Regarding keeping it in Tumbleweed or even making it co-installable, I don't really think we should aim for that. It's not just the package and executable names that conflict, but also things like DBUS interfaces and PolKit actions (in particular for KAuth helpers). Also the Qt4/Qt5 clashes come to mind here. E.g. a kdenlive4 would just crash on startup with the Qt5-based libmlt shipped in Tumbleweed. I have also e.g. seen Plasma5 taking up 100% of CPU when I started to maintain my repo because powerdevil5 tried to use the KDE4 KAuth backlighthelper (to get the necessary privileges for backlight control) which crashed and was restarted over and over again. All of that is definitely possible to workaround, but will be a lot of work and be quite hackish too I suppose (and I know what I'm talking of... ;) ). Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata schrieb:

Robert Kaiser composed on 2015-05-04 22:10 (UTC+0200):

...

Sounds like I need to look out for a different distro or desktop environment then. Is there a good alternative that still supports KDE4, or is there a desktop environment that supports session restore and a system tray that can cope with Hexchat and Vidyo properly?

I don't know anything about Hexchat or Vidyo coping, but aren't KDE3 or TDE session restore in openSUSE adequate? Restore with KDE3 still worksforme good as it did in 11.0 when openSUSE users were first exposed to KDE4, and it's just as bling-free now as then.

Why should I go back to incredibly ugly and even older KDE3? I'm not one of those cavemen who don't want to upgrade their technology. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.05.2015 um 22:10 schrieb Robert Kaiser:

or is there a desktop environment that supports session restore and a system tray that can cope with Hexchat and Vidyo properly?

I don't know hexchat and vidyo, but XFCE copes well with all sort of icons in the system tray. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Wolfgang Bauer schrieb:

You can e.g. run "wmsystemtray" inside Plasma5 for old-style system tray icons, as suggested by Martin Graesslin (one of the main KWin developers)

I actually did that on my laptop, but it is only available in some user repos on OBS, and runs as a standalone window, which doesn't integrate into the plasma control bars and therefore isn't visible on all virtual desktops outside of the area that application windows occupy.

But as Plasma's system tray is just a plasmoid like any other, one could of course also write an additional system tray plasmoid that supports XEmbed icons, or even port the old KDE4 one to Plasma5. Even if it is not part of Plasma5 itself, it would be easy to install it and add it to the panel in addition to or even instead of the standard one.

That would be an awesome workaround for the time until those apps actually update to the newer tray standard. It would be like eating the cake and having it, too. KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Wolfgang Bauer schrieb:

Just a heads up, another "solution" is available now meanwhile: http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/xembed_back

In short, that's a "daemon" that converts old-style XEmbed system tray icons to the new system on the fly.

It probably will be part of Plasma 5.5, but it's already available as package in Tumbleweed and Leap RC1 (and also in KDE:Frameworks5). So you can install it *now*, the package is called "xembed-sni-proxy".

If you install it, it will be started by default on login and all your old- style systray icons should be back even in Plasma5... ;-)

That is awesome. The downside is that it still does not (yet) e.g. show the blinking icon when hexchat has a notification/message addressed to the user. But at least it shows up in the tray. :) KaiRo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/10/15 06:05, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Dienstag, 5. Mai 2015, 12:15:07 schrieben Sie:

...

Am Montag, 4. Mai 2015, 22:10:51 schrieb Robert Kaiser:

...

Sounds like I need to look out for a different distro or desktop environment then. Is there a good alternative that still supports KDE4, or is there a desktop environment that supports session restore and a system tray that can cope with Hexchat and Vidyo properly? You can e.g. run "wmsystemtray" inside Plasma5 for old-style system tray icons, as suggested by Martin Graesslin (one of the main KWin developers) here: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2014/06/where-are-my-systray-icons/ An openSUSE package is available here: http://software.opensuse.org/package/wmsystemtray Maybe this should be added to Factory/Tumbleweed?

Another option would be "icewmtray" which is even installed by default.

But as Plasma's system tray is just a plasmoid like any other, one could of course also write an additional system tray plasmoid that supports XEmbed icons, or even port the old KDE4 one to Plasma5. Even if it is not part of Plasma5 itself, it would be easy to install it and add it to the panel in addition to or even instead of the standard one. Just a heads up, another "solution" is available now meanwhile: http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/xembed_back

In short, that's a "daemon" that converts old-style XEmbed system tray icons to the new system on the fly.

It probably will be part of Plasma 5.5, but it's already available as package in Tumbleweed and Leap RC1 (and also in KDE:Frameworks5). So you can install it *now*, the package is called "xembed-sni-proxy".

If you install it, it will be started by default on login and all your old- style systray icons should be back even in Plasma5... ;-)

Thank you, Wolfgang, for this information about 'xembed-sni-proxy'! Information which brightened my day by a factor of x to the power of n! :-) This, together with installing 'oxygen5-style', as mentioned by someone whom I don't remember, makes 'Leap of Faith' finally worth looking at :-) . But now for the BIG question: do you know of any "blog", whatever, which will give 'Masta-Plasma' to have a different wallpaper for different desktops just like in KDE4? Now THAT would make 'Masta Plasma' really nice :-) . BC -- Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.2.2-1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:03:32 +0200 Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Samstag, 24. Oktober 2015, 21:28:35 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

But now for the BIG question: do you know of any "blog", whatever, which will give 'Masta-Plasma' to have a different wallpaper for different desktops just like in KDE4?

It's not possible (yet?). https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143

Strictly speaking it never was possible in KDE4 either, but that had an option to use a separate activity on each virtual desktop, with its own wallpaper. That option has been removed because it complicated things and caused hard to debug/fix problems AIUI.

I'm sorry, but that is not entirely correct. I haven't used this option for a while (my desktops are so full that I can't see the wallpaper!) but I've just tested it and have changed the wallpapers on two of my desktops. I don't use different activities on this machine as switching activities is less easy than switching desktops. [The following comments were written before I read the bug report. Another variation on my part of "if all else fails, read the instructions!"] First of all, I've found that it's necessary to select "Virtual Desktops", either by right-clicking on the desktops on the task-bar and picking "Pager Settings" or from "System settings"and then "Workspace behavior". In "Desktops" tab, you need to tick the box "Different widgets for each desktop". I'm pretty sure that this malarkey that I've just described wasn't necessary in earlier versions of openSUSE though I've checked 13.1 and verified that it is needed there. Once that is done just right-click on the desktop and select "Default Desktop Settings". Then right-click on the top of the window, select "move to desktop" and check that it's on the correct one, it may be defaulted to "all". Select the wallpaper and apply. Now, the reason that this doesn't work in Plasma5 could be that someone seems to have removed the "Different widgets for each desktop" box. This means that any wallpaper changes apply to all desktops. I should add that "Virtual desktops" configuration is no longer available via "pager settings". -- Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. openSUSE 13.2 (64-bit); KDE 4.14.9; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 4.2.4; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (Driver: nouveau); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 28. Oktober 2015, 12:08:17 schrieb Graham P Davis:

On Sat, 24 Oct 2015 18:03:32 +0200

Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

...

Am Samstag, 24. Oktober 2015, 21:28:35 schrieb Basil Chupin:

...

But now for the BIG question: do you know of any "blog", whatever, which will give 'Masta-Plasma' to have a different wallpaper for different desktops just like in KDE4?

It's not possible (yet?). https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=341143

Strictly speaking it never was possible in KDE4 either, but that had an option to use a separate activity on each virtual desktop, with its own wallpaper. That option has been removed because it complicated things and caused hard to debug/fix problems AIUI.

I'm sorry, but that is not entirely correct.

Yes, it is. As I wrote, if you enable that option in KDE4, you implicitly create a separate activity for each virtual desktop. Switching to a different desktop automatically switched to the different activity too. Separate wallpapers is not and *never* was possible in KDE4, you only can have separate wallpapers for different activities. And that's the same in Plasma5 as well.

I haven't used this option for a while (my desktops are so full that I can't see the wallpaper!) but I've just tested it and have changed the wallpapers on two of my desktops. I don't use different activities on this machine as switching activities is less easy than switching desktops.

You do. You just didn't create them manually. Switching between activities is not much different to switching between virtual desktops though, except that you can't just do so by moving the mouse cursor to the edge of the screen (which is disabled by default anyway). And as I also wrote already, a new "activity pager" is available that should look and feel similar to the normal (virtual desktops) pager, and AFAIK it is also possible to drag windows to a different activity there (although it's probably easier with the already existing title bar's right-click menu).

Now, the reason that this doesn't work in Plasma5 could be that someone seems to have removed the "Different widgets for each desktop" box.

Not just that option has been removed, but the whole functionality, because of the problems it caused.

This means that any wallpaper changes apply to all desktops.

That was the same before. Again, you can only set a wallpaper per activity, and that was already the case in KDE4.

I should add that "Virtual desktops" configuration is no longer available via "pager settings".

No, but the "virtual desktops" configuration is reachable just by right- clicking on the pager. And it is of course there in systemsettings5 as well. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2015-05-04 at 07:18 +0200, Alessandro Russo wrote:

Il 04/05/2015 01:33, Trent Hawkins ha scritto:

...

Yes to Plasma 5.3! Not everyone on this list thinks its totally unacceptable.

Keep going good opensuse team :-) We're not against Plasma 5.3, we only want to a have the choice to continue using kde 4 until all the showstopper bugs are fixed.

You have the choice: use openSUSE 13.2, or if you use tumbleweed, stop updating until you feel comfortable. Any other option involves your own work (e.g. maintain KDE 4 in your own repo and overload TW with it) After all, that is why announcement mails with updates go out, so you can judge for yourself. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il 04/05/2015 01:14, Cristian Rodríguez ha scritto:

...

Oh, and I forgot about the system tray: works only with some kde apps, doens't work for thunderbird, teamviewer, dropbox and many other apps. (you cannot see the icons in the system tray!). There are only horrible work around (like having another system tray somewhere in the desktop!)

This is totally unacceptable... This happens because you do not have

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 6:39 PM, Alessandro Russo wrote: libappindicator1 and/or libappindicator3-1 installed........ I had them installed. Dropbox is a qt5 app but there is a bug in the last version as it doesn't show the icon in the system tray of Plasma 5. For Thunderbird and teamviewer I tried to install libappindicator1 and/or libappindicator3-1 and another lib that I don't remember but I didn't resolve the problem. I had to install a plugin in thunderbird (Firetray) but to restore thunderbird from tray I had to use the mouse wheel and not the left click. Teamviewer is a wine app and the icon showed in another tray, somewhere in the desktop...

BTW I did all of these tests on KUbuntu, maybe they works on openSuse, can somebody confirms? Best regards, Alessandro Russo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 03.05.15 šumski wrote:

IMHO, we have been quite conservative already in this regard. E.g. some other distros thought 5.2.x is good enough for default with their stable release, or at least for their beta releases. This is off course no measure at all, but just to give you an idea we are not pushing versionitis on users.

That's why we are not using those other distros... ;-) Johannes -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Using GnuPG with SeaMonkey - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlVawLIACgkQzi3gQ/xETbKSrgCfRCCWHndLuF5y22qhB5hnLalc KkAAoJ9TstVTFb3HCt4bs+uv+VRP3lbs =em2L -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org