On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:37:00 +0200, Simon Lees wrote:

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Hi all, (sorry sent this from the wrong account the first time)

Was just testing openSUSE:Leap milestone 2 and I ran into the following issue, I wanted to use enlightenment as my DE so I did a minimal X install loaded up yast after the first boot and installed enlightenment. I then rebooted and was presented with xdm which has no way to change the DE other then editing /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager, so rather then doing this I tried installing another lightweight DM. First I tried sddm which claims to be light weight, but currently pulls in all of plasma so instead I installed lightdm. After rebooting xdm still came up so i had to go edit /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager.

From my point of view having to edit a file in /etc/sysconfig is not user friendly so this should be fixed, there are 2 ways that I could think of doing this.

1. When installing a new Display Manager or maybe even Window Manager the files in /etc/sysconfig automatically get updated (Some users probably won't want this, also significant effort) 2. Modify the Minimal X11 Pattern to install lightdm or another lightweight dm that allows the selection of window managers at run time. (Lightdm doesn't have any significant dependencies, I guess this would probably break some openQA tests though).

But you chose minimal X. This already implies that you don't need the extra DEs. In that sense, xdm is the perfect choice. So I'm against the second option.

Takashi The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window managers, so often its used to setup prior to installing the minimal DE/window manager that you really want, granted most people doing this are probably capable of editing config files. The other point here is

On 09/06/2015 06:35 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: lightdm isn't really much heavier then xdm but provides more features. Cheers Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/06/2015 09:58 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:09:30 +0200, Simon Lees wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 06:35 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

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Hi all, (sorry sent this from the wrong account the first time)

Was just testing openSUSE:Leap milestone 2 and I ran into the following issue, I wanted to use enlightenment as my DE so I did a minimal X install loaded up yast after the first boot and installed enlightenment. I then rebooted and was presented with xdm which has no way to change the DE other then editing /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager, so rather then doing this I tried installing another lightweight DM. First I tried sddm which claims to be light weight, but currently pulls in all of plasma so instead I installed lightdm. After rebooting xdm still came up so i had to go edit /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager.

From my point of view having to edit a file in /etc/sysconfig is not user friendly so this should be fixed, there are 2 ways that I could think of doing this.

1. When installing a new Display Manager or maybe even Window Manager the files in /etc/sysconfig automatically get updated (Some users probably won't want this, also significant effort) 2. Modify the Minimal X11 Pattern to install lightdm or another lightweight dm that allows the selection of window managers at run time. (Lightdm doesn't have any significant dependencies, I guess this would probably break some openQA tests though). But you chose minimal X. This already implies that you don't need the extra DEs. In that sense, xdm is the perfect choice. So I'm against

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:37:00 +0200, Simon Lees wrote: the second option.

Takashi The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window managers, so often its used to setup prior to installing the minimal DE/window manager that you really want, granted most people doing this are probably capable of editing config files.

How often does it happen, except for Enlightment installation? In other words, isn't it the better direction to allow proper Enlightment installation from the beginning? From a 5 minute search of the 13.2 repo's the following window managers were available with no menu option i3, twm, openbox, WindowMaker, fvwm, mate. There could be more I only looked for 5 minutes, there are also a bunch of others on obs that aren’t officially part of the release such as lxqt. I'm not sure how many of these are in frequent use, personally I use twm in VM's alot.

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The other point here is lightdm isn't really much heavier then xdm but provides more features. Does it work without gtk or qt? Currently it requires one or the other but not both (users choice), maybe that does make it to heavy for some, but there are probably not to many people running X11, that don't have atleast 1 Qt or gtk app.

Takashi

Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6 September 2015 at 16:12, Yamaban wrote:

On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:55, Simon Lees wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 09:58 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:09:30, Simon Lees wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 06:35 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:37:00, Simon Lees wrote:

[snip]

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The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window managers, so often its used to setup prior to installing the minimal DE/window manager that you really want, granted most people doing this are probably capable of editing config files. How often does it happen, except for Enlightment installation? In other words, isn't it the better direction to allow proper Enlightment installation from the beginning?

From a 5 minute search of the 13.2 repo's the following window managers were available with no menu option i3, twm, openbox, WindowMaker, fvwm, mate. There could be more I only looked for 5 minutes, there are also a bunch of others on obs that aren’t officially part of the release such as lxqt. I'm not sure how many of these are in frequent use, personally I use twm in VM's alot.

...

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The other point here is lightdm isn't really much heavier then xdm but provides more features. Does it work without gtk or qt?

Currently it requires one or the other but not both (users choice), maybe that does make it to heavy for some, but there are probably not to many people running X11, that don't have atleast 1 Qt or gtk app.

...

Takashi

Simon

Unavoidable QT-App: Yast2

yast2 is not unavoidable (the minimal pattern no longer requires it) and it does not require Qt (yast2 has an ncurses option) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:12:06 +0200, Yamaban wrote:

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On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:55, Simon Lees wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 09:58 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:09:30, Simon Lees wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:37:00, Simon Lees wrote: [snip] The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window managers, so often its used to setup prior to installing the minimal DE/window manager that you really want, granted most people doing this are probably capable of editing config files. How often does it happen, except for Enlightment installation? In other words, isn't it the better direction to allow proper Enlightment installation from the beginning? From a 5 minute search of the 13.2 repo's the following window managers were available with no menu option i3, twm, openbox, WindowMaker, fvwm, mate. There could be more I only looked for 5 minutes, there are also a bunch of others on obs that aren’t officially part of the release such as lxqt. I'm not sure how many of these are in frequent use, personally I use twm in VM's alot. The other point here is

On 09/06/2015 06:35 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: lightdm isn't really much heavier then xdm but provides more features. Does it work without gtk or qt? Currently it requires one or the other but not both (users choice), maybe that does make it to heavy for some, but there are probably not to many people running X11, that don't have atleast 1 Qt or gtk app.

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Takashi Simon Unavoidable QT-App: Yast2 Most-likely GTK-App: Firefox or Thunderbird. "Most-likely" doesn't mean "mandatory".

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So, "minium X11" implies basic QT and basic GTK. Please do not pull wool over your own eyes. Truth will not change by being ignored.

Xdm is missing some features that lightdm has and also the otherway round. Neither is "complete", but then, has ssdm gotten that domain feature, yet? The feature completeness is never a goal for "minimal X" pattern. "minimal" X is meant to be minimal. You can of course bottom up from that point, but it doesn't justify to make it fat from the start.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not ignoring the problem Simon suggested. My opinion is to go for the first option. It's the right way. The second solution looks easier, but it's against the concept of minimal X already. It's nothing but a workaround aimed for a completely different goal.

That said, what's missing is the proper default DM choice semantics. We should rather leave the default $DISPLAYMANAGER in /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager to an empty string. If it's empty, OS chooses the right one depending on the installation. Only if it's set explicity, the given DM is used. In that way, the already installed system (that has already $DISPLAYMANAGER set) won't be affected by this change at all.

Each DM package would provide some priority value so that it can be chosen in an appropriate order. Or, just make xdm as the second-class DM, and let other DM try at first if $DISPLAYMANAGER is empty. This is a good point as atleast the enlightenment pattern and xfce

On 09/07/2015 02:00 AM, Takashi Iwai wrote: pattern include the X11 pattern so its likely that xdm will end up installed. Cheers Simon

Takashi

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 14:28:19 +0200, Simon Lees wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 16:12:06 +0200, Yamaban wrote:

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On Sun, 6 Sep 2015 14:55, Simon Lees wrote:

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On 09/06/2015 09:58 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

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On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 14:09:30, Simon Lees wrote: > On 09/06/2015 06:35 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: >> On Sun, 06 Sep 2015 09:37:00, Simon Lees wrote: [snip] > The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window > managers, so often its used to setup prior to installing the minimal > DE/window manager that you really want, granted most people doing this > are probably capable of editing config files. How often does it happen, except for Enlightment installation? In other words, isn't it the better direction to allow proper Enlightment installation from the beginning? From a 5 minute search of the 13.2 repo's the following window managers were available with no menu option i3, twm, openbox, WindowMaker, fvwm, mate. There could be more I only looked for 5 minutes, there are also a bunch of others on obs that aren’t officially part of the release such as lxqt. I'm not sure how many of these are in frequent use, personally I use twm in VM's alot. > The other point here is > lightdm isn't really much heavier then xdm but provides more features. Does it work without gtk or qt? Currently it requires one or the other but not both (users choice), maybe that does make it to heavy for some, but there are probably not to many people running X11, that don't have atleast 1 Qt or gtk app.

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Takashi Simon Unavoidable QT-App: Yast2 Most-likely GTK-App: Firefox or Thunderbird. "Most-likely" doesn't mean "mandatory".

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So, "minium X11" implies basic QT and basic GTK. Please do not pull wool over your own eyes. Truth will not change by being ignored.

Xdm is missing some features that lightdm has and also the otherway round. Neither is "complete", but then, has ssdm gotten that domain feature, yet? The feature completeness is never a goal for "minimal X" pattern. "minimal" X is meant to be minimal. You can of course bottom up from that point, but it doesn't justify to make it fat from the start.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not ignoring the problem Simon suggested. My opinion is to go for the first option. It's the right way. The second solution looks easier, but it's against the concept of minimal X already. It's nothing but a workaround aimed for a completely different goal.

That said, what's missing is the proper default DM choice semantics. We should rather leave the default $DISPLAYMANAGER in /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager to an empty string. If it's empty, OS chooses the right one depending on the installation. Only if it's set explicity, the given DM is used. In that way, the already installed system (that has already $DISPLAYMANAGER set) won't be affected by this change at all.

Each DM package would provide some priority value so that it can be chosen in an appropriate order. Or, just make xdm as the second-class DM, and let other DM try at first if $DISPLAYMANAGER is empty. This is a good point as atleast the enlightenment pattern and xfce

On 09/07/2015 02:00 AM, Takashi Iwai wrote: pattern include the X11 pattern so its likely that xdm will end up installed.

I thought XFCE takes lightdm as default? Need to check the fresh installation again. Not sure about LXCE...

Now I talked with Stefan Dirsch about this, and we basically agree with the improvement on the default DM behavior. He thinks it's YaST who sets this value explicitly, not the packages. Currently, the default value of $DISPLAYMANAGER set in /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager is "xdm" in the package xdm itself. We may change this to empty and change the fallback logic appropriately, supposing that minimal X pattern doesn't rewrite this value. Then Enlightment or whatever inherits from minimal X can simply install lightdm on its top. Meanwhile, for KDE, GNOME and others where YaST sets the value, the behavior won't be changed by this action, so it's fairly safe.

In anyway, this is a thing to be discussed / evaluated over FATE. I'm going to open a new request. Let's continue discussing there.

thanks,

Takashi Sounds like a good plan, can you post a link once its open? I am not

On 09/07/2015 10:21 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote: that familiar with FATE. Cheers Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

[Sorry, it was sent to a wrong address; resending with the right one] On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 14:56:13 +0200, Simon Lees wrote:

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In anyway, this is a thing to be discussed / evaluated over FATE. I'm going to open a new request. Let's continue discussing there.

Sounds like a good plan, can you post a link once its open? I am not that familiar with FATE.

Opened up: https://features.opensuse.org/319432 Feel free to join there. Stefan, could you join, too? I couldn't find your account there... Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 2015-09-06 14:09, Simon Lees wrote:

The problem is minimal X could be one of several minimal window managers,

"Minimal X" is quite different from "X with a minimalistic WM". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Hi all, (sorry sent this from the wrong account the first time)

Was just testing openSUSE:Leap milestone 2 and I ran into the following issue, I wanted to use enlightenment as my DE so I did a minimal X install loaded up yast after the first boot and installed enlightenment. I then rebooted and was presented with xdm which has no way to change the DE other then editing /etc/sysconfig/windowmanager, so rather then doing this I tried installing another lightweight DM. First I tried sddm which claims to be light weight, but currently pulls in all of plasma so instead I installed lightdm. After rebooting xdm still came up so i had to go edit /etc/sysconfig/displaymanager.

From my point of view having to edit a file in /etc/sysconfig is not user friendly so this should be fixed, there are 2 ways that I could think of doing this. 1. When installing a new Display Manager or maybe even Window Manager the files in /etc/sysconfig automatically get updated (Some users probably won't want this, also significant effort) 2. Modify the Minimal X11 Pattern to install lightdm or another lightweight dm that allows the selection of window managers at run time. (Lightdm doesn't have any significant dependencies, I guess this would probably break some openQA tests though).

Cheers

Simon Lees --- openSUSE Enlightenment Maintainer -- Wouldn't the better option just be to edit the Desktop selection screen and patterns so Enlightenment is listed in the Other options

On 6 September 2015 at 09:37, Simon Lees wrote: like LXDE and XFCE?

Then you can have it setup whatever DM you want for Enlightenment? That would be better, however until now there hasn't been room on the

On 09/06/2015 06:38 PM, Richard Brown wrote: main DVD for enlightenment and some of the other lighter DVD's so the traditional method has been to install the Minimal X Pattern then install enlightenment at a later point, the net install is better because it picks up enlightenment + pattern out of the repos and just works (well did in 13.2, see the other thread). Cheers Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/07/2015 04:35 AM, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

Am Sonntag, 6. September 2015, 17:07:00 schrieb Simon Lees:

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First I tried sddm which claims to be light weight, but currently pulls in all of plasma That's not completely true. Sddm itself does not pull in "all of plasma". It only needs some Qt5 libraries.

It's sddm-branding-openSUSE that does require plasma5-workspace, because it sets Plasma 5's "Breeze" theme as default for better integration with Plasma 5.

Install sddm-branding-upstream instead of sddm-branding-openSUSE, and it should be "lightweight".

Kind Regards, Wolfgang

Given that it would be a choice from the installer it would probably be better to come up with "lightweight branding" based off the upstream that only requires Qt, given that I do the enlightenment branding and that i'm a Qt developer in my $dayjob this should be within my abilities if its decided thats a better solution then lightdm Cheers Simon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 10. September 2015, 11:30:37 schrieb David Sterba:

line 59: Requires: breeze

Oh, I didn't notice that. But it seems like a mistake to me. breeze should only be needed with the "Breeze" theme that's set by default by the sddm-branding-openSUSE package. That's probably been forgotten when the separate branding packages were created. As sddm-branding-openSUSE requires plasma5-desktop anyway (which in turn requires breeze), this line could (and should) just be removed I think. Kind Regards, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org