On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:31 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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So.. if there is a chance to save 100MB by ripping out the documentation, the DO IT! :-) Any documentation needs can be filled by going online and searching (what virtually everyone does anyway) or installing via YaST after booting.

Go for it, C - I'm awaiting your submit requests.

Greetings, Stephan

I don't know much about kiwi... but... ...what about excludedocs=true for cds in: https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=config.xml.in&package=kiwi-config-openSUSE&project=openSUSE%3AFactory&rev=f63ff6128a27828675223a8895814b08 ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 09:50, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 07.06.2012 08:54, schrieb Claudio Freire:

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https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file?file=config.xml.in&package=kiwi-config-openSUSE&project=openSUSE%3AFactory&rev=f63ff6128a27828675223a8895814b08

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I don't know - many said that one the biggest value of the live cd download is as rescue medium. And personally I fancy having some man pages around when I try to repair a file system.

+1 man pages should stay. Other bigger docs may be removed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/QnQUACgkQIvFNjefEBxqTJACghl6uVjpl/OlO9Bf1SkbjgkrF LcUAn1Ys+kGC2pShoFMQYcJflRK/OJ+C =E8Ji -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.06.2012 09:26, schrieb Felix Miata:

On 2012/06/07 08:24 (GMT+0200) C composed:

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Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

...

So I wonder: should we screw the medium CD and go officially for 1GB sticks as our medium? (or require DVD medium for non-usb).

Did *buntu stop mailing free installation CDs to anyone who asked?

...

CDs are fast going the way of floppy disks. Some people still use them, but...

Like people stuck on low bandwidth connections. All day to do a CD is a lot more doable than a week for a DVD. People stuck with low bandwidth are more likely stuck with puters that don't boot from USB.

I miss your solution! If you can't be part of the solution, stop being part of the problem please. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/07 03:41 (GMT-0400) Stephan Kulow composed:

I miss your solution! If you can't be part of the solution, stop being part of the problem please.

Why do you shout "please read" if you're not in dire need of feedback? How providing reasons to resist abandoning traditional media can be part of the problem of app bloat overwhelming available space on media escapes me. I have no opinion on whether omitting LibreOffice or Documentation or a bunch of smaller space hogs makes better sense. If I had to vote on how to make more space, I'd go for both omitting docs and programmer tools like cpp. Do people really 1-write code? (cpp, python _and_ perl) 2-burn OM? (K3B) 3-manage their MP3 libraries or other databases? (Amarok, mysql...) booted from live media? How many live media users have printers that don't require proprietary drivers? What's glibc-locale on there for? Isn't a CD that needs to be a swiss army knife limited to a single language? I rarely use sticks myself. They're too small to write on what they're for or contain. I can write on a DVD or CD in print big enough to read. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 14:00, Stephan Kulow wrote:

All your suggestions are only valid for non-installable media, which is not what we're talking about here. And perl and python are not programmer's tools but language interpreters.

But the C compiler, is it really needed? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/QnZgACgkQIvFNjefEBxqFdwCgrUKc0qCrPHOFr0OZU3/8Zxiy SDsAoK383NL9PNVtsoDZWyzf0devhh40 =uHLO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 14:29, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 07.06.2012 14:24, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-06-07 14:00, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

All your suggestions are only valid for non-installable media, which is not what we're talking about here. And perl and python are not programmer's tools but language interpreters.

But the C compiler, is it really needed?

There is no C compiler on the live cd. cpp is on the live cd - as it will be on your system too, try to remove it and you'll find out X requires it.

Oops O:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Qn6AACgkQIvFNjefEBxq4igCcDN0UIwePgGRCRP4wf+9sVgFn u0gAoNIA4r2/VkOlkmD96fzLksdiIUWf =nq5d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/07 14:00 (GMT+0200) Stephan Kulow composed:

I kind of assumed only people with a clue about the issues and the will to change things would step up.

Some people (e.g. me) have an interest in seeing that real or potential negative attributes of proposed changes, which are often made _apparently_ only for the sake of change, are appropriately considered prior to implementation proceeding. Current example: kde4 was renamed to kde-plasma without any accompanying symlink to prevent kde4 as default (.dmrc) or previously selected session type from preventing KDE startup. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00185.html

All your suggestions are only valid for non-installable media, which is

I guess I must have made another erroneous assumption that openSUSE's live media imitated those of other major distros in being dual purpose, both live, and installable. I guess maybe I need to stay out of live media threads even when OPs shout for FEEDBACK.

not what we're talking about here. And perl and python are not programmer's tools but language interpreters.

Had it been me writing your OP I would have omitted packages that couldn't rationally be considered for removal from the indicated media. If cpp is required by Xorg or KDE, it wouldn't have been on a list I made. In my tired state hours past when I should have gone to bed I must have assumed that most of that list's content was candidate for removal. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 16:53, Claudio Freire wrote:

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booted from live media? I guess it's very important to have some media software on the

3-manage their MP3 libraries or other databases? (Amarok, mysql...) live-cd, so that users can test their would-be distribution for media support. There's usually quite a lot of incompatibilities with audio/video drivers and whatnot, so being able to do a quick check without installing is valuable IMO - I myself do it all the time before installing any version of openSUSE.

But testing media means re-installing those tools from packman. Having them from openSUSE is not needed and redundant. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Q0KcACgkQIvFNjefEBxp31gCgiS3zgbyPeaP1SDLL519AuJ2K RV4AoI/igflH/ARO1riZEEeKzkTjbH8V =+n1w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07/06/12 17:26, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/06/07 08:24 (GMT+0200) C composed:

...

Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

...

So I wonder: should we screw the medium CD and go officially for 1GB sticks as our medium? (or require DVD medium for non-usb).

Did *buntu stop mailing free installation CDs to anyone who asked?

...

CDs are fast going the way of floppy disks. Some people still use them, but...

Like people stuck on low bandwidth connections. All day to do a CD is a lot more doable than a week for a DVD. People stuck with low bandwidth are more likely stuck with puters that don't boot from USB.

Sorry, but your last statement is something an elitist would come up with and indicates that you are WAY out of touch with the rest of the world. You sound like Marie Antoinette whose famous "last words" were, "Let them eat cake!" :-( There are people out there - including those living in the richest country in the world, the USA - who are still on dial-up. More than likely they have computers which are capable of booting from USB but downloading a LIVE-whatever can be quite a problem on dial-up and at 56kb/s. I have a computer which will boot from anything you can throw at it but it takes me 10+ hours to download a 4.3GB DVD of openSUSE - and I am on ADSL2+. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.1 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.06.2012 08:41, schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

Am 07.06.2012 07:57, schrieb Stephan Kulow:

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-rw-r--r-- 1 107 109 3,4M Jun 7 04:54 bootsplash-branding-openSUSE.rpm

Isn't that moot with plymouth now? Possible. Remember my mail about "plymouth support for kiwi"? Not much happened about it.

...

-rw-r--r-- 1 399 399 7,1M Apr 23 08:50 mysql-community-server.rpm

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There are some packages you can't pick and there are packages that will free more space than there value due to their dependency list.

I don't understand the purpose of mysql on an live CD but that's probably just me :-)

Ask the kdepim crew... ;(

...

But as you can see, libreoffice and it's subpackages (plus their dependencies) is worth ~20% of the live cd space. So realistically, we have two choices: live CD without libreoffice or live USB with libreoffice. *Or* we find a way to reduce the size of packages by splitting things out that are optional and don't need to be on the live cd (I can hear you say documentation :)

seife@susi:~> rpm --help|grep docs --excludedocs do not install documentation

how about that?

That breaks online updates - and you have no way to retrieve the documentation later. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.06.2012 09:58, schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

Ah. Ok. How about leaving out kdepim? (assuming that Thunderbird will be on the medium anyway).

(Disclaimer: I have not tried any kdepim stuff for quite some time, but I only know people migrating away from it, not new users).

That's clearly offtopic - even though I agree. The KDE team wants kdepim not Thunderbird - and I'm using xfce with Thunderbird. But just ignore the mailer for now - GNOME CD is too large too, even though I didn't check how much.

...

...

seife@susi:~> rpm --help|grep docs --excludedocs do not install documentation

how about that?

That breaks online updates - and you have no way to retrieve the documentation later.

Ok, then we really need to split off documentation packages for everything. Too bad.

So maybe just ditching openoffice from the Live CD is really the way to go for now. I would not miss it (I just use it once per month), but I know there are people using it more often... It's also a very nice show case for openSUSE. So I would drop it only if I *really* have to.

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/07/12 12:31, Brian K. White pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

On 6/7/2012 3:51 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

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One cannot not have an office suit in a LIVE CD so LibreOffice must stay.

Not that I'm advocating one way or the other, but I completely disagree with this statement. If you value an office suite on a live cd, I say that is just a thing you happen to value. I have zero use for an office suite on a live cd.

I happen to value documentation on live media specifically because half the time I'm even USING a live media is because I'm either installing or repairing or otherwise do not have normal use of the machine, which may mean no access to internet (at least via that machine).

If I had a cd and a laptop and I couldn't figure out how to get the laptop on the internet and all the documentation for the software was...on the internet... I would be real pissed at whatever genius decided the live cd didn't need it's own documentation built-in.

Then there is a need for a rescue CD besides the live CD. The rescue CD would only need necessary admin tools and docs. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-06-07 18:48, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

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Then there is a need for a rescue CD besides the live CD. The rescue CD would only need necessary admin tools and docs.

Which is what I'm advocating: a smaller live CD, for rescue and fast install, perhaps with xfce, and larger USB image for gnome and kde.

+1 If low bandwidth is a concern, then removing packages won't be a real solution, as they'll need to be downloaded during / or after install anyway (every time). Having a bigger usb live image for testing and install, and a smaller cd image as a rescue system (though I'll copy it to a usb stick anyway) would be, IMHO, the best solution. -- Kind Regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/08/2012 09:55 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 07.06.2012 18:54, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-06-07 18:48, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Then there is a need for a rescue CD besides the live CD. The rescue CD would only need necessary admin tools and docs.

Which is what I'm advocating: a smaller live CD, for rescue and fast install, perhaps with xfce, and larger USB image for gnome and kde.

Guido wanted to have a xfce live cd anyway and perhaps on that one we can concentrate on rescue tools and leave aside show cases.

+1 Such a rescue CD can omit the virtualization material for VBox and VMware. Are they needed on any Live CD? Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/8/2012 10:55 AM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am 07.06.2012 18:54, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2012-06-07 18:48, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Then there is a need for a rescue CD besides the live CD. The rescue CD would only need necessary admin tools and docs.

Which is what I'm advocating: a smaller live CD, for rescue and fast install, perhaps with xfce, and larger USB image for gnome and kde.

Guido wanted to have a xfce live cd anyway and perhaps on that one we can concentrate on rescue tools and leave aside show cases.

Greetings, Stephan

I would like such a cd enough that I hesitate to bugger the possible process by suggesting lxde instead of xfce. I would preferr it, but please, even xfce is fine, just not gnome or kde! In either case, avoid including a bunch of gnome stuff to fill in the missing pieces. wicd instead of networkmanager please etc. I've been very happy with lubuntu on a Vaio P. (except for the GMA500 video driver problem that is universal to all linux) It normally comes with a bunch of gnome stuff to fill in the missing pieces for a nice convenient desktop, but there are non-gnome options that work almost as well. And frankly I think wicd works _better_ than networkmanager. There are non-gnome bluetooth and pulseaudio and power manager plugins for lxpanel and they work essentially fine even if the experience is less polished and consistent than the same gnome or kde components. But such a desktop would be a very different from other suse desktops. It would not be a "suse experience" really. The marketing people might care a lot about that and I can't even really fault them. You *should* be careful what you put your name on. Maybe it's good enough to just somehow make sure it's always obvious to the user that the thing they are using is not the normal suse system, so a newbie or stranger doesn't judge the distribution by this thing. Think up a cool name for it that distinguishes. It's not "opensuse" but "opensuse hospital" or "opensuse technician" or "microsuse" or something. geeks toolbox, pocketsuse, ususe, techsuse, susetech, puppysuse, damn small suse, knuse, snoppix ? hehe -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 07.06.2012 18:31, Brian K. White wrote:

On 6/7/2012 3:51 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

One cannot not have an office suit in a LIVE CD so LibreOffice must stay.

Not that I'm advocating one way or the other, but I completely disagree with this statement. If you value an office suite on a live cd, I say that is just a thing you happen to value. I have zero use for an office suite on a live cd.

I happen to value documentation on live media specifically because half the time I'm even USING a live media is because I'm either installing or repairing or otherwise do not have normal use of the machine, which may mean no access to internet (at least via that machine).

If I had a cd and a laptop and I couldn't figure out how to get the laptop on the internet and all the documentation for the software was...on the internet... I would be real pissed at whatever genius decided the live cd didn't need it's own documentation built-in.

It has already been pointed out in this increasingly pointless thread that this is what gets installed and the vast majority of users probably consider an office suite standard functionality. Omitting it from the live image just means they have to download the packages after the installation (and each time they do an installation). -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 7 Jun 2012 11:01:45 +0200 Freek de Kruijf wrote:

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4GB USB flash drives currently start at ~ €2 and in regions where bandwidth is a serious issue (e.g. Africa or parts of Asia) 300MB isn't going to make a huge difference as people tend to get such media by different means anyway. Leaving out documentation on a pure live media might be acceptable but not on an installable one where an installed system would end up without any documentation. So I'd say going for 1GB live images is a practical solution.

+1

-1 I think, at least in Russia users prefer to burn CD. And limited bandwidth is a serious issue in some regions of our country. -- WBR Kyrill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 14:32:33 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-06-07 12:07, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 07:57:10 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

So I wonder: should we screw the medium CD and go officially for 1GB sticks as our medium? (or require DVD medium for non-usb).

IMHO there is no need for a Live CD to be available for everybody, the only thing that needs consideration is whether an "install CD" is still needed.

There would still be the netinstall variant, would it not? So people can still download that and burn it to a CD to start from there.

Many people using the CD do so because of limited bandwidth. Those people could never use a network install.

They will have to download the data at some point, be it a CD image or net install. If they download the image somewhere else they might as well use a DVD or USB stick to transfer the files and do not need a CD either. So my point still stands, only those who combine all three properties of neither having a DVD drive, nor an USB port and on top of that a limited bandwidth will "suffer". The rest can either use a USB stick/DVD or the network to transfer data. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/6/7 Carlos E. R. :

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On 2012-06-07 14:43, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 14:32:33 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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...

Many people using the CD do so because of limited bandwidth. Those people could never use a network install.

They will have to download the data at some point, be it a CD image or net install.

Downloading a CD slowly is possible. A fist install that slowly is impossible.

If we go to the USB stick, then IMO, we would also need a single CD install/rescue image. XFCE, for example.

Have you tried an USB rescue on a slow computer? The CD boots reasonably fast, the USB takes minutes to only load the kernel.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

               Carlos E. R.

Hi, I vote for a 1GB USB without the blocks. Right now, with the LiveCD (the way I always install openSUSE), you donwload 700MB, "burn" it to USB and install. On the first update (for example to let it install is language packages) it will download another 150~200 MB Another solution would be drop the existent languages and let only english on LiveCD or dropping Gimp. Regards Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 22:20, Hans Witvliet wrote:

But even then, i think it is faster then a cdrom....

Not by a long shot :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/RFh4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxrbOgCfWQECSfw/KfkQ6LxfMP7SBL/k Np4AmwSszvlcN18w8uNkkf92Aj+llaTI =vEWT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-12 19:52, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Thursday 07 June 2012 22:59:10 Carlos E. R. wrote: On 2012-06-07 22:20, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

...

...

But even then, i think it is faster then a cdrom....

...

Not by a long shot :-)

Not sequentially reading data but in practice things run far better due to the HUGE random access times of a CD. Ever had to wait for the CD to spin up and then start your application? Exactly.

USB 2 is certainly far more comfortable than CD or DVD.

I have seen some server level PCs taking 15 minutes, measured with a wall clock, to boot from a usb stick (text mode). That same computer booted from CD to live under two minutes to a graphics system. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/XmYIACgkQIvFNjefEBxpVZgCfWhc/5NMREvxe6SFFZV7mi4Q8 xWwAn0wO/ySCk0L6bxrAWR2iAodCu8Lx =AK5M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 13.06.2012 07:54, schrieb Per Jessen:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I have seen some server level PCs taking 15 minutes, measured with a wall clock, to boot from a usb stick (text mode). That same computer booted from CD to live under two minutes to a graphics system.

Carlos, apart from a "server level personal computer" being a bit of an odd thing :-), that was surely a hardware issue. Anything I've recently booted from USB definitely completed faster than from CD.

I think it is actually BIOS dependant -- I have seen many, even recent BIOSes taking ages to load kernel and initrd from USB stick (5 minutes wall clock) and loading the same kernel and initrd quickly from a CD. Once the linux kernel takes over, this is mostly moot, but until then... -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Hans, Am 14.06.2012 00:10, schrieb Hans Witvliet:

Specially for them we made a bootable (syslinux) cdrom only containing boot-stuf. everything else was kept on the stick.

Yeah, I did the same for a notebook which would be perfectly capable of booting from USB but the BIOS apparently does not want to. http://seife.kernalert.de/blog/2009/11/24/usb-boot-enabler/ :-) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/7/2012 8:43 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 14:32:33 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-06-07 12:07, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 07:57:10 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

...

So I wonder: should we screw the medium CD and go officially for 1GB sticks as our medium? (or require DVD medium for non-usb).

IMHO there is no need for a Live CD to be available for everybody, the only thing that needs consideration is whether an "install CD" is still needed.

There would still be the netinstall variant, would it not? So people can still download that and burn it to a CD to start from there.

Many people using the CD do so because of limited bandwidth. Those people could never use a network install.

They will have to download the data at some point, be it a CD image or net install. If they download the image somewhere else they might as well use a DVD or USB stick to transfer the files and do not need a CD either.

So my point still stands, only those who combine all three properties of neither having a DVD drive, nor an USB port and on top of that a limited bandwidth will "suffer". The rest can either use a USB stick/DVD or the network to transfer data.

Sven

Not really. If you're on limited bandwidth, you download the cd one time, and you probably arrange for that to happen over night or while you do other things, and use it many times, and with no further delays during each use. The net install would download the bulk of the install each time, and at an inconvenient time instead of ahead of time. Although lately I only ever use the tiny net install and only on usb sticks myself, I have the luxury of good bandwidth and lots of hardware and I maintain my own mirror of every version from 10.0 to current plus updates. A CD iso is still a magic size that has a lot of value and should be maintained. I value it even if I don't use it much. I value it on behalf of others and I value that the option is there for odd situations which DO still pop up now and then. But it's good enough for me if someone else makes a cd or smaller live iso like damnsmall or puppy or backtrack, I don't really care if Suse drops the format. It will just be one more situation that Suse is no longer good for. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 12:50:08 schrieb Brian K. White:

Not really. If you're on limited bandwidth, you download the cd one time, and you probably arrange for that to happen over night or while you do other things, and use it many times, and with no further delays during each use.

So you assume users with no usb port, no DVD drive and low bandwidth who install on many computers, yet do not have any local network. That gets too niche-ish for me. BTW, I did install SuSE in ISDN times via net-install, so it is absolutely possible. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/7/2012 3:18 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2012, 12:50:08 schrieb Brian K. White:

...

Not really. If you're on limited bandwidth, you download the cd one time, and you probably arrange for that to happen over night or while you do other things, and use it many times, and with no further delays during each use.

So you assume users with no usb port, no DVD drive and low bandwidth who install on many computers, yet do not have any local network. That gets too niche-ish for me.

BTW, I did install SuSE in ISDN times via net-install, so it is absolutely possible.

Sven

I assumed no such thing. Do not speak for me. Many times I reinstall the same OS on the same machine during testing, trying different options, learning, and developing (developing software or procedures, not myself), recovering from errors, etc. But it only takes one singe re-use to be worth avoiding another day, or weekend, of downloading. And, even the very first download is much better done at your convenience before installing instead of after you start, while you're awake and now can't use your net connection for anything else for the rest of the day since it's all bogged down. And the issue isn't relegated to old machines or ancient phone lines. Even when the machine is modern and the connection is fast enough, the latest craze in wireless internet is bandwidth caps as low as 2G for a whole entire month, and the norm is still only 3 to 5G. Even cable companies are starting to impose limits and offer new services with low limits. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 22:09, Hans Witvliet wrote:

When they do a net-install, they only download the packages they really opt for, nothing else.

Have you tried a net-install on 64K? It takes days. If the network fails, you loose all. Better to install a system, then add packages slowly. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/RFsYACgkQIvFNjefEBxrNiQCfSw8polMCr1K2w8BEJtUx0kx0 3NcAnRgUmbuVm1a1dIa2hWShaX5Y/+Qs =7XUO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 16:55, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Martin Schlander <> [06-07-12 10:48]:

I agree this this reasoning and selection.

Provided another selection on CD, smaller, is still available, like xfce, for testing and rescue. Everybody happy. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Q0RsACgkQIvFNjefEBxq84ACgpKtsZG2RtuZEvCMXrIoYDrdG 9K8AnR0iRRN8foDi3YVaEF3+3bM9oZYm =ncUW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.06.2012 22:31, schrieb Hans Witvliet:

On Thu, 2012-06-07 at 18:04 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-06-07 16:55, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Martin Schlander <> [06-07-12 10:48]:

...

I agree this this reasoning and selection.

Provided another selection on CD, smaller, is still available, like xfce, for testing and rescue. Everybody happy.

Can also combine that selection with the net-install-cd

That would make them much larger than they have to be - no longer everybody happy :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 19:02, upscope wrote:

Two days ago I went to delete everything on it but cannot even as root. Says its read only.

dd with zeros the first few sectors, then repartition and mkfs. It is the image of a CD, so it behaves as a CD: no writing at all. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Q5f4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoH4gCeMNEV3NlGx+qVZHucSpX0Umqi 6eEAoKLbmDURBgnrt5uDutQNvs9XRh/z =RV+Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-07 22:40, Hans Witvliet wrote:

so, beside a repair/rescue/net-install cdrom, we should like to have an usb-image, with RW capabilities? _that_ would be a step forward compared with the old live cdrom!

That would be very nice. But actually the current cd image, when written to an usb, is writeable beyond the end of the cd. The system has a name I don't remember. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/RFz4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxriQgCcCVlIzABBG6nJZswR3a1amimz KGIAnR3YMaiRlDofuYdy5iBUYfIIlBQW =ipcV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 07.06.2012 22:12, schrieb Javier Llorente:

Some of the options we have:

1. Saying goodbye to Live CDs (and building USB live images). Others have already done that, such as PC-BSD http://www.pcbsd.org/en/get-it/90-isotope-downloads

2. Removing LibreOffice and GIMP from the Live CD and leaving just English (no German).

3. Making the Live CD KDE pure, like Fedora.

There is a fourth option: 4. creating an additional live media flavour besides oS-GNOME-Live and oS-KDE-Live. This could serve as some kine of "minimal desktop live CD", with a second purpose as "comfortable rescue system". My proposal would be to put the following stuff on it: * XFCE (my personal choice, but to be debated. We could even go for icewm, but the problem we have is that we need lots of "fat" stuff anyway: NetworkManager+applets, a Browser, maybe an Email Client, so using the relatively fat XFCE might not add too much of an overhead). * a browser (firefox) and maybe an email client (thunderbird?) * the chosen desktop should be "complete" and "functional" (i know, there are different meanings for different people). E.g. keep the multimedia stuff and the music player included, so that hardware compatibility can be tested (you don't need MP3 for testing the soundcard, ogg is just fine for that). * rescue tools: all filesystem stuff, gparted, gpart, whatever. Maybe even some forensic stuff, Greg Freemeyer might know what is useful also for a "normal" user who has "just" killed his partition table and wants to recover it. * basic documentation, maybe the man-pages packages. Brian explained the reasoning for that quite good: "I happen to value documentation on live media specifically because half the time I'm even USING a live media is because I'm either installing or repairing or otherwise do not have normal use of the machine, which may mean no access to internet (at least via that machine)." Stuff *I personally* would leave out: * libreoffice * gimp * languages IIUC there is no real alternative to libreoffice for viewing office documents (some people realy write their tutorials in MSWord...) but then there's not much we can do about that. A picture viewer is probably helpful, but then XFCE's ristretto should do fine. Editing of images is probably not needed. Note that I'd really "design" this CD with dual-purpose: useful as a "purist", "minimalist" desktop for "small is beautiful" geeks and for basic hardware compatibility tests but also useful as a rescue system for recovering after you installed grub into the wrong partition. And I'd actually try to go for less than CD size. We don't need to fill 700MB, a smaller download is always nice. I never cared for or even thought about the building of the live cds. What do i need to do to start such a project? Can I test this in my home in OBS? Or do I need to use SUSE Studio for that? Anyone interested in doing/using something like that? It's surely not useful enough for me to do it if I am the only user :-) Best regards, seife -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 07.06.2012 22:12, schrieb Javier Llorente:

...

Some of the options we have:

1. Saying goodbye to Live CDs (and building USB live images). Others have already done that, such as PC-BSD http://www.pcbsd.org/en/get-it/90-isotope-downloads

2. Removing LibreOffice and GIMP from the Live CD and leaving just English (no German).

3. Making the Live CD KDE pure, like Fedora.

There is a fourth option:

4. creating an additional live media flavour besides oS-GNOME-Live and oS-KDE-Live.

This could serve as some kine of "minimal desktop live CD", with a second purpose as "comfortable rescue system". My proposal would be to put the following stuff on it:

* XFCE (my personal choice, but to be debated. We could even go for icewm, but the problem we have is that we need lots of "fat" stuff anyway: NetworkManager+applets, a Browser, maybe an Email Client, so using the relatively fat XFCE might not add too much of an overhead). * a browser (firefox) and maybe an email client (thunderbird?) * the chosen desktop should be "complete" and "functional" (i know, there are different meanings for different people). E.g. keep the multimedia stuff and the music player included, so that hardware compatibility can be tested (you don't need MP3 for testing the soundcard, ogg is just fine for that).

I've built LXDE appliances in SUSE Studio and much prefer it to XFCE. It pulls in the XFCE NetworkManager applet. It brings in Abiword and Gnumeric, a media player, paint and photo app abd two text editors. It also functions in VirtualBox Seamless mode - the LXDE menu appears on the host. The only issue I have with LXDE is that it looks like there's not much activity upstream - it's not getting the level of attention that Cinnamon and Razor-Qt are.

* rescue tools: all filesystem stuff, gparted, gpart, whatever. Maybe even some forensic stuff, Greg Freemeyer might know what is useful also for a "normal" user who has "just" killed his partition table and wants to recover it. * basic documentation, maybe the man-pages packages. Brian explained the reasoning for that quite good: "I happen to value documentation on live media specifically because half the time I'm even USING a live media is because I'm either installing or repairing or otherwise do not have normal use of the machine, which may mean no access to internet (at least via that machine)."

Stuff *I personally* would leave out: * libreoffice * gimp * languages

IIUC there is no real alternative to libreoffice for viewing office documents (some people realy write their tutorials in MSWord...) but then there's not much we can do about that. A picture viewer is probably helpful, but then XFCE's ristretto should do fine. Editing of images is probably not needed.

Note that I'd really "design" this CD with dual-purpose: useful as a "purist", "minimalist" desktop for "small is beautiful" geeks and for basic hardware compatibility tests but also useful as a rescue system for recovering after you installed grub into the wrong partition. And I'd actually try to go for less than CD size. We don't need to fill 700MB, a smaller download is always nice.

I never cared for or even thought about the building of the live cds. What do i need to do to start such a project? Can I test this in my home in OBS? Or do I need to use SUSE Studio for that?

SUSE Studio by default builds minimalist appliances - the "--recommends" option is turned off and you get only the packages you request and their dependencies. Even a KDE desktop will be smaller than the one shipped in 12.1. I've been using it for two years and I can't function without it. ;-) Once you get a build you like, you can export the Kiwi project definition and do your own testing / manufacturing / deployment.

Anyone interested in doing/using something like that? It's surely not useful enough for me to do it if I am the only user :-)

Best regards,

       seife -- Stefan Seyfried

"Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I think for the official distribution, we need to look at the competition. What do they feature? What else do they offer? IMHO Ubuntu is the simplest - they feature a desktop LiveCD, a server CD and a cloud CD and just about everybody goes for the desktop. Fedora features a GNOME LiveCD, a KDE LiveCD, an XFCE LiveCD and an LXDE LiveCD. My recollection is that the Ubuntu desktop ditched GIMP this time around but still has LibreOffice. Fedora has both and I think openSUSE needs to have both as well. This late in the 12.2 game, I'd recommend sticking with the traditional media - full install DVD, GNOME and KDE LiveCD at 700 MB and a net install CD. In fact, I'd kill the XFCE and LXDE projects and abandon Razor-Qt and Cinnamon to focus on meeting the deadlines. I'm sure there are ways to manage the packages to get a GNOME and KDE desktop with at least LibreOffice word processing, spreadsheet and presentations. You might not have GIMP and you might have to make separate English and German versions, but I think if Ubuntu and Fedora both have LibreOffice, openSUSE needs to as well. But further down the road, I think the project needs to take a hard look at strategic realities. UEFI, the transition away from optical drives, Windows 8 and touch screens, tablets, ARM, .etc. openSUSE seems stuck in fourth place in the Distrowatch rankings and fourth place isn't a sustainable strategic position. Both Ubuntu and Fedora are making OpenStack Essex accessible in the main distro and supporting it via community documentation, but openSUSE relies on a third party. And Fedora's KVM desktop hosting tools are a good bit easier to use than what's built in to YaST2. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 9 Jun 2012 11:54:10 +0200 David Haller wrote:

...

* a browser (firefox) and maybe an email client (thunderbird?)

Nope. Seamonkey! Seamonkey package is 44.3 MiB (without translations,

If we talk about Xfce, then Midori and Claws Mail. -- WBR Kyrill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* M. Edward (Ed) Borasky [06-09-12 13:27]: ...

I honestly don't know why GNOME keeps maintaining Epiphany and KDE keeps maintaing Konqueror. Pretty much everyone actually uses Firefox or Chrome/Chromium because the UI is identical on Windows, Linux and Mac. And I don't know too many people that use an on-desktop full-featured email setup except in enterprises with Exchange servers. Just about everyone else I know uses webmail and a good number of those are GMail.

I actually use konqueror kde4-4.8.3-5.1.x86_64and like it. Much less system requirements than firefox/chromium and does most of what I want. If I need something that it will not do, I can always refert to what-ever for that particular site or page. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/09 10:26 (GMT-0700) M. Edward (Ed) Borasky composed:

I honestly don't know why ... KDE keeps maintaing Konqueror.

I know one good reason why people want to use it. Konq can still render absolute font sizes according to desktop pixel density, the way Gecko used to by default, but does no longer since FF4[1] in order to match the shrunken fonts stupidity of IE's & WebKit's arbitrary 4:3 16px = 12pt ratio. The new order that Konq resists allows pages that require absolute sizes to get their intended messages across to get their intended messages across. e.g.: http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-ptdemo96.html http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/Moz/ptdemo96-120.png 3 of 4 get it right. The oddball matches the unintended result produced by IE, Safari, Chrome, ReKonq, SeaMonkey, other recent Geckos, and other WebKit browsers. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=537890 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

And I mean: who has NO alternative and would have to use another Linux if we would move to 1GB images?

1GB is pretty much acceptable.

I honestly think we're trying to cater to a group of people which doesn't exist...

They do exist, I have one crap laptop that has a buggy BIOs which doesn't allow me to boot from USB; Netbooks for example are rare to have optical media drives. But moving to 1GB is pretty much acceptable and a far better solution than have zypper pulling stuff after.

So I would suggest we move to 1GB live images. We make sure the USB image also works from DVD and point people to plop.at in case they can't boot from USB without a CD. Last but not least, for those really older computers, we offer a LXDE or XFCE liveCD. Then we cater for everyone.

Up to 1.5 sounds pretty much reasonable to me, Mint does it... and you don't see many complaints on their foruns... +1 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/6/12 Daniele :

In data martedì 12 giugno 2012 20:46:34, Nelson Marques ha scritto:

...

...

And I mean: who has NO alternative and would have to use another Linux if we would move to 1GB images?

1GB is pretty much acceptable.

...

I honestly think we're trying to cater to a group of people which doesn't exist...

They do exist, I have one crap laptop that has a buggy BIOs which doesn't allow me to boot from USB; Netbooks for example are rare to have optical media drives. But moving to 1GB is pretty much acceptable and a far better solution than have zypper pulling stuff after.

I have 2 notebook e 2 laptop and only one of them can boot from usb (one notebook). Two of them have only usb1 ports.

there's like 7 billion more people in world :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

In data martedì 12 giugno 2012 22:25:52, Stephan Kulow ha scritto:

...

I have 2 notebook e 2 laptop and only one of them can boot from usb (one notebook). Two of them have only usb1 ports.

And how many of them do you install from live cd? 2 (1 notebook and 1 laptop, my main pc), from a fully loaded live cd and 2 direct installation from boot menu. The oldest one has only 265Mb of ram and still running opensuse 11.2 :)

net installation is too slow. I did it few times in the past.. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 12. Juni 2012, 22:12:59 schrieb Daniele:

I have 2 notebook e 2 laptop and only one of them can boot from usb (one notebook). Two of them have only usb1 ports.

Use some CD to boot the netinstall and then mount the DVD iso from the USB stick, no need to boot from it. At least I think that's one way I used to try to install. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/6/12 Daniele :

In data martedì 12 giugno 2012 22:57:05, Sven Burmeister ha scritto:

...

Am Dienstag, 12. Juni 2012, 22:12:59 schrieb Daniele:

...

I have 2 notebook e 2 laptop and only one of them can boot from usb (one notebook). Two of them have only usb1 ports.

Use some CD to boot the netinstall and then mount the DVD iso from the USB stick, no need to boot from it. At least I think that's one way I used to try to install.

Sven waste of bandwith (and time) and dvd iso become outdated too soon (for my taste). IMHO  better a live cd with less software then nothing. I can download what  I need when I need and when i want. Bye.

I might be wrong as usual... but doesn't the LiveCD gets outdated at the same rate of the DVD ? :/

-- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 ***    ***  Home  http://www.kailed.net  ***        ***  Powered by openSUSE  ***

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-- Nelson Marques // I've stopped trying to understand sandwiches with a third piece of bread in the middle... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 12. Juni 2012, 23:13:59 schrieb Daniele:

waste of bandwith (and time) and dvd iso become outdated too soon (for my taste). IMHO better a live cd with less software then nothing. I can download what I need when I need and when i want.

Then use the netinstall. openSUSE cannot provide media for every single need. As others already pointed out, the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/06/13 06:08 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:

...

As others already pointed out, the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD.

The majority don't need or want something, so the minority, even though unable to switch to become majority members, cannot have it: the main flaw of democracy.

I won't be switching to sticks any time soon, if ever. I don't foresee the price of a stick dropping to anywhere near the level of a single OM, but the bigger problem is they're too tiny to legibly label what they contain. I don't foresee a solution for that media management problem ever happening.

How about: combine everything on a single USB stick (or one per location/office), and have a boot-menu system to help you pick what you need. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (14.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/06/13 10:48 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

...

...

the bigger problem is they're too tiny to legibly label what they contain. I don't foresee a solution for that media management problem ever happening.

...

How about: combine everything

Do you have a problem the concept of media management?

No, my openSUSE media management problem was solved by combining everything on one stick. I thought you were having an issue because of the difficulty of labelling a USB stick with sufficient information?

Maybe you live in an environment where there are under a dozen or so.

I do, it's a regular office+datacentre.

Here it's more like a public library, thousands of user-written OM, all of which need to be identifiable externally. It's bad enough with OM that there is little or no spine space for labeling, but with sticks there's virtually no space of any kind for legible external labeling, no way to organize and locate whichever media is required of the moment.

"thousands of disks" - sounds like one of those corner cases we shouldn't be trying to fix.

...

on a single USB stick (or one per location/office), and have a boot-menu system to help you pick what you need.

Like http://ultimatebootcd.com/ or http://www.hiren.info/pages/bootcd or similar? That doesn't sound workable for KISS or rescue environments. Users couldn't just add one iso from foo, another from bar, a third from baz, all on one stick, could they?

Yes, essentially (*) they could - that's what I do. It's basically a syslinux boot-menu with chain-loading to whatever you need. I cobbled up my setup myself, but I think http://plop.at/ would help here. (*) okay, perhaps not "just" add an iso, but anyone requiring a collection of sticks with different openSUSE images will probably have the necessary skills.

Some higher power would have to create these complexities, not to mention decide what they include and exclude. They'd surely be much bigger than 700 or 1000MB downloads. And still there's the external labeling problem, only bigger, with yet more that can't fit.

Well, I wasn't proposing this as a general solution for openSUSE, only as a solution for those who have a problem with having multiple sticks with little or no labelling. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-13 06:08, Sven Burmeister wrote:

openSUSE cannot provide media for every single need. As others already pointed out, the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD.

No, the majority of those that write here. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/YcfUACgkQIvFNjefEBxrMTwCg3GXRtml3LzqmCbJcaTzOLW7b vAUAnj+XtilLiqzn52Se7AfpQvzZin79 =qBOA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-14 06:08, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012, 12:56:53 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2012-06-13 06:08, Sven Burmeister wrote:

...

openSUSE cannot provide media for every single need. As others already pointed out, the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD.

No, the majority of those that write here.

That claim is as strong/weak as the opposite – only that Jos and others backed-up their claim with some logical assumptions about the technical means of today’s computer.

I mean that the group of people that read the factory mail list is not representative of all the users of the distro. It is representative of those that try the factory version and want to talk about it in a mail list. You would have to ask at least in the main mail list, and also in the forum, which has more registered users than all the mail lists here. And even then you would not be considering the preferences of all the users that do not participate in lists or forums, or that communicate in other languages or via other venues. Or even people with limited internet access. Also do not forget that all users do not have recent computers. One of the Linux points is catering to more computers than Windows, not requiring flashy new hardware. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/Z2kgACgkQIvFNjefEBxrVKwCfXes49ipNasagA6go69k939LW AbMAn1LEwnw6lWce56e1WfxolDdx1GI8 =k/IM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 15/06/12 01:00, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I mean that the group of people that read the factory mail list is not representative of all the users of the distro. It is representative of those that try the factory version and want to talk about it in a mail list. You would have to ask at least in the main mail list, and also in the forum, which has more registered users than all the mail lists here. That would be a good idea, methinks. Still, the users of this list ought to have the "plain" user in mind at all times, after all, he's the whole reason we're here.

I'll second that. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 16.06.2012 08:32, schrieb Basil Chupin:

On 14/06/12 22:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I would like to know how many developers, or those who "direct" their efforts, are using 32-bit computers with 1 or 2 or 3 GB of RAM and also

I'd count myself as a developer. I use (amongst others) a 32bit computer with 768MB of RAM.

have either a dial-up Internet connection or a slow ADSL connection.

I have a moderately fast ADSL connection, but often when traveling, I'm restricted to 3G or even GPRS. So what did you want to know besides a number? (Oh, I also use an 8 bit computer with 2kB of RAM) -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 21:56 +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Exactly. Well put.

Not really, that's just another falacy... Without memory you will be enslaved by OOM-Killer... without fancy 3D support your desktop will strink... Without raw power... your system will still drag...

Unless you have crap hardware and a lot of space for low level system and user tweaking...

...

I think that one of the main problems is that developers, and those who "manage" their efforts, are using the 'latest' hardware available and forget that those in the real world still use 32-bit cpus with pata drives and so on.

Then update hardware... I hate dumbass people who have kick ass hardware for CRISIS but have an old P3 800 with 512Mb RAM for Linux (or a VM for all that matters)... This people deserve the worst experience possible :)

Dude, come back to the real world... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012, 20:05:31 schrieb Daniele:

netinstall is too slow. With a live cd I can do $something while installing (surf the web, play games, read documentation..).

So it's about you not wanting to do it rather than you not being able to do it. We are looking for use cases where it is impossible to install without Live CD.

Not sure about "the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD"

Jos and others backed that claim up with some logic and points on technical requirements. Where is yours? Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I haven't followed this discussion very closely, but in my job I have to boot "new to me" computers from non-hdd boot media routinely. Based on my experience I vote against a "USB only live media". == my logic USB thumbdrive boot - I think every PC I come across has usb ports, but that does not mean the bios'es support usb booting. I find this very hit or miss once you get away from the big brands like Dell. In my job we carry bootable thumb drives, bootable CD's, and a external usb CD/DVD drive. I would not carry all that if a single solution worked. PXE boot - This is pretty universally available and has been for at least a decade. The biggest negative for me is it typically involves going into the bios and changing things. And it is a setting that varies a lot and most users have no idea how to do this. CD boot - This used to be universally available, but now a lot of netbooks, etc. don't have a optical drive. When it is available, I've always gotten it to work unless the drive itself was malfunctioning. USB external CD - Every time I've tried this it worked. External CD/DVD drives are under $50. DVD boot - I don't do that, so I have no info. ie. I only carry CD media with me for booting purposes, so I don't pay attention to PCs that only support CD media and not DVD. == I lack actual experience with DVDs for booting, but my uninformed vote would be to produce 1 MB iso's that can be burned to DVD or a usb thumb drive and document the 4 possible ways to use it: 1) Internal DVD 2) External DVD 3) Thumb drive 4) Via a PXE server I doubt many of us think about the PXE server option very often, but I think it should become a documented/supported way of working with openSUSE boot images in general. These days most of us have multiple computers and having one that could boot up as PXE server to support less functional PCs/netbooks seems like something we should more formally support. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/14 16:56 (GMT+0200) Per Jessen composed:

It seems to me we have to work with the lowest common denominator and keep the CD. If it means reducing the functionality slightly, so be it.

+0.97. More than half my functional USB-equipped systems can boot a DOS floppy, far less than half a Linux USB stick. I have to think floppy lower than CD, even though a modern Linux kernel can't come close to fitting on a floppy. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

In data giovedì 14 giugno 2012 06:11:19, Sven Burmeister ha scritto:

Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012, 20:05:31 schrieb Daniele:

...

netinstall is too slow. With a live cd I can do $something while installing (surf the web, play games, read documentation..).

So it's about you not wanting to do it rather than you not being able to do it. We are looking for use cases where it is impossible to install without Live CD. No it's about doing thing in smart way. Live cd is good enough for demo, rescue and installation media. Cd image can be used on pendrive too, so with one image you can cover a lot of use case. We already have Live Cd. for sure one day will not be able to release a really usefull live cd ( I understand the size issue..) but now is doable !

...

Not sure about "the vast majority does not need a 700 MB CD"

Jos and others backed that claim up with some logic and points on technical requirements. Where is yours? Do not waste half day just for basic installation is for me a sort of technical requirements. At least for now that we have a working solution..

Bye. -- *** Linux user # 198661 ---_ ICQ 33500725 *** *** Home http://www.kailed.net *** *** Powered by openSUSE *** -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Jun 12, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Drew Adams wrote:

...

...

So I would suggest we move to 1GB live images. We make sure the USB image also works from DVD and point people to plop.at in case they can't boot from USB without a CD. Last but not least, for those really older computers, we offer a LXDE or XFCE liveCD. Then we cater for everyone.

I love this idea! I think this sounds like the best option yet.

-- Drew Adams Member & Ambassador, openSUSE Project -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

If we're moving to 1 GB LiveUSB images, can we also cut the "DVD" image down so it will fit on a 4 GB stick? Get rid of infrequently used things and just provide all the desktops and desktop apps. If someone wants a server there are dozens of ways to get there. I'm against spending the extra effort on LXDE and XFCE "respins". I honestly don't understand why Fedora and Ubuntu do them. It's so easy to get an LXDE or XFCE desktop from the NET install, the "DVD" or from SUSE Studio. If you really want a minimalist install media, make an IceWM / Minimal X LiveCD without even a browser or media player. I just built one in SUSE Studio and it's 220 MB - it should fit on a MiniCD and could replace the Network install CD, I think. -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 13.06.2012 00:39, schrieb Nelson Marques:

...

If we're moving to 1 GB LiveUSB images, can we also cut the "DVD" image down so it will fit on a 4 GB stick? Get rid of infrequently used things and just provide all the desktops and desktop apps. If someone wants a server there are dozens of ways to get there.

DVD is most likely the nicest media to share on events and specially in places/people which don't have broadband. I don't believe it should be touched.

It is possible to burn ISOs which are only 3995000000 bytes sized onto a normal DVD-R medium, no problem.

...

I'm against spending the extra effort on LXDE and XFCE "respins". I honestly don't understand why Fedora and Ubuntu do them. It's so easy

A good way to honor those who commit hundreds of hours of their free time doing stuff for openSUSE.

Yeah, that's stupid. "Just because I do not have any use for a usable Live CD we should not do it" is not a convincing argument. -- Stefan Seyfried "Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

The other side of the coin... I cannot use CD on any of my computers as none of the laptops have a CD/DVD player. My main PC had a DVD player, but no longer. For my computers, USB is the only way for me to install any OS including Windows. So.. not everyone has the ability to use a CD :-)

There is little difference in downloading an iso which is ~800MB big which can be burnt onto a SL DVD to one which is ~740MB and intended to be burnt onto a CD.

This is probably the key point here. Keep the ISO as small as reasonably possible, but don't focus so much time and effort on keeping it under 700MB. The only "risk" would be size creep. 790MB now.. in one year 850Mb and so on. But even that is a non-issue in the long run. Really, we're arguing about a meaningless label... calling a 800MB ISO a USB ISO or a small DVD ISO or a CD Plus ISO... does it matter? Call it Bob the ISO.... it comes down to size. Allow it to be 800MB, call is the openSUSE Live Linux or something.. ... and then people burn it to a SL DVD or write it to USB stick.. the result is the same. If we call it a USB ISO does that mean you cannot burn it to a SL DVD? No... so what's the issue here?

Any thinking person of any consequence wants to comment on what I suggested?

Thinking person? You're making a big assumption there. Ha. We're too busy arguing to sort anything out. C. -- openSUSE 12.1 x86_64, KDE 4.8.3 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-14 00:34, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 11:37 +0200, C wrote:

...

So.. not everyone has the ability to use a CD :-)

So do I. But all of them are capable of doing PXE-boot...

I'm not, AFAIK. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/ZF+QACgkQIvFNjefEBxo+MwCg0crThpQnvvPO5X5rJ5j7CEl0 ubgAoKCxCxffW8UrJ9R+qPzhQLK55Z2e =PFH1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-06-14 00:34, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 11:37 +0200, C wrote:

...

...

So.. not everyone has the ability to use a CD :-)

So do I. But all of them are capable of doing PXE-boot...

I'm not, AFAIK.

I'd be very surprised if you can't.

Trouble is you have to go into the bios and find it. Often called network boot or something similar. You often have to enable it first in the NIC section of your bios and then in the boot section.

And finding the right place varies a lot from bios to bios.

In my experience, it's primarily systems without embedded network interfaces that have a problem with PXE (due to no PXE code in the NIC ROM). I had a cluster 10-11 years ago with nodes that booted PXE from floppy. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 19:26 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

percentage?

However, there is little difference cost-wise or effort-wise between having to burn a CD and a blank single-layer DVD.

I am NOT talking here about releasing 4.3GB of data to fill a SL DVD but saying that if the volume of data to be downloaded by users is only marginally greater then what would fit on a standard CD then there wouldn't be a problem.

In fact there were a few LIVEs "CD"s recently which I had to burn to a DVD.

Downloading ~800MB to be burnt onto a DVD is acceptable - but not downloading 4.3GB.

Discussion was more about 1GB instead of 700 or 800MB... Allthough i'm in favour of live-images of 1GB there is one risk: With repair or netboot images the incentive to keep the image small is obvious. Just like cd 700MB limitation of a cdrom. When that limitation is removed, there might be a tendency that for 12.2 the live image is 800MB, the next 1GB, next one 1.5GB. If not careful we end up with a live-blu-ray, live-data-centre or a live-cloud ;-)) hans -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-06-14 00:24, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

Discussion was more about 1GB instead of 700 or 800MB...

No, rather between 700 and 1000 MB, as needed.

...

Allthough i'm in favour of live-images of 1GB there is one risk: With repair or netboot images the incentive to keep the image small is obvious. Just like cd 700MB limitation of a cdrom.

Which is why there is also the proposal to also make a small rescue CD with xfce or another small desktop; the big desktops would have the needed space, and the people that need a CD would have a CD. And the people that asked for a rescue system would have it. And the marketing people could boast about having also xfce (or whatever) as a desktop. :-)

System Rescue CD pretty much has the rescue CD market nailed down. If you're just looking to make an openSUSE Rescue CD, IceWM or even OpenBox is fine - XFCE or even LXDE is overkill. You just need something that can exercise / test X Windows, unb0rk nine different flavors of bootloaders, get the network up and running and chroot into the rescue target. ;-) -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/13/2012 7:02 PM, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 2012-06-14 00:24, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

Discussion was more about 1GB instead of 700 or 800MB...

No, rather between 700 and 1000 MB, as needed.

...

Allthough i'm in favour of live-images of 1GB there is one risk: With repair or netboot images the incentive to keep the image small is obvious. Just like cd 700MB limitation of a cdrom.

Which is why there is also the proposal to also make a small rescue CD with xfce or another small desktop; the big desktops would have the needed space, and the people that need a CD would have a CD. And the people that asked for a rescue system would have it. And the marketing people could boast about having also xfce (or whatever) as a desktop. :-)

System Rescue CD pretty much has the rescue CD market nailed down. If you're just looking to make an openSUSE Rescue CD, IceWM or even OpenBox is fine - XFCE or even LXDE is overkill. You just need something that can exercise / test X Windows, unb0rk nine different flavors of bootloaders, get the network up and running and chroot into the rescue target. ;-)

Ideally you want a suse-specific rescue cd rather than the generic ones so that it knows exactly what yast would ever have done, contains yast itself, makes all the exact correct assumptions about the contents and layout of /etc, contains a kernel and libs that can chroot seamlessly into an installed system of the same version, includes the same versions with the same behavioral quirks as the installed system, so that documentation will be correct. That's why a livecd or install media makes such a good rescue platform even compared to dedicated but generic rescue platforms. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 19:26 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

percentage?

...

However, there is little difference cost-wise or effort-wise between having to burn a CD and a blank single-layer DVD.

I am NOT talking here about releasing 4.3GB of data to fill a SL DVD but saying that if the volume of data to be downloaded by users is only marginally greater then what would fit on a standard CD then there wouldn't be a problem.

In fact there were a few LIVEs "CD"s recently which I had to burn to a DVD.

Downloading ~800MB to be burnt onto a DVD is acceptable - but not downloading 4.3GB.

Discussion was more about 1GB instead of 700 or 800MB...

Allthough i'm in favour of live-images of 1GB there is one risk: With repair or netboot images the incentive to keep the image small is obvious. Just like cd 700MB limitation of a cdrom.

When that limitation is removed, there might be a tendency that for 12.2 the live image is 800MB, the next 1GB, next one 1.5GB. If not careful we end up with a live-blu-ray, live-data-centre or a live-cloud ;-))

hans

Exactly! Yes, the trend is for optical media to vanish. But for 12.2 there's a commitment for the four media previously delivered: NET Install that fits on a Mini CD, GNOME and KDE that fit on a 700MB CD and an install DVD that fits on a 4.7 GB DVD. That's what we should ship for 12.2 even if it means making some sacrifices of lesser used packages. We *have* popularity data; I've seen the rankings in SUSE Studio. So I know there are packages we can axe to get things to fit the committed formats. For the next release, there's lots of discussion, including discussion of the release / schedule strategy. My proposal is to switch to a Debian-style "release when we are stable" for at least the LAMP stack and other server-level components - Perl, Python/DJango, Ruby/Rails/Sinatra/WebYast and PostgreSQL. For more active upstream components, like Node.js, NoSQL databases, compilers, desktops and applications, I like the Tumbleweed approach - lag upstream as little as possible without breaking installed systems or introducing dependency nightmares. For release media, I'd favor a "Puppy Linux" sized MiniCD with IceWM or maybe OpenBox and NET install and 1GB and 4GB LiveUSB images, eliminating the 700 MB and 4.7 GB media.

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-- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/13/2012 03:24 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 19:26 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

percentage?

I don't know the total percentage, but the US Department of Defense has banned usage of memory sticks on DoD owned systems since 2008. External USB rotating disks are also banned unless pre-registered and scanned for malware. This certainly affects many hundreds of thousands of computers, a non-trivial percentage of which are running openSuSE. I can't comment on the rationality of them doing this, but it is what it is. Of course they are doing this for security reasons, and I bet that many private companies have similar bans. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/06/12 14:19, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 13. Juni 2012, 17:25:40 schrieb Lew Wolfgang:

...

...

...

...

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 19:26 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote: percentage? I don't know the total percentage, but the US Department of Defense has banned usage of memory sticks on DoD owned systems since 2008. External USB rotating disks are also banned unless pre-registered and scanned for malware. This certainly affects many hundreds of thousands of computers, a non-trivial percentage of which are running openSuSE. I can't comment on

On 06/13/2012 03:24 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote: the rationality of them doing this, but it is what it is.

Of course they are doing this for security reasons, and I bet that many private companies have similar bans. They block (booting from) USB-stick but allow to boot from CD? Does not make sense to me from a security point of view.

That is not what Lew stated. All he said was that the USB memory sticks was disallowed :-) . BC

Sven

-- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 06/13/2012 03:24 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

On Wed, 2012-06-13 at 19:26 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

...

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

percentage?

I don't know the total percentage, but the US Department of Defense has banned usage of memory sticks on DoD owned systems since 2008. External USB rotating disks are also banned unless pre-registered and scanned for malware. This certainly affects many hundreds of thousands of computers, a non-trivial percentage of which are running openSuSE. I can't comment on the rationality of them doing this, but it is what it is.

Of course they are doing this for security reasons, and I bet that many private companies have similar bans.

Sure, but usually it means ALL external media have been banned and interfaces either removed or sealed. Ie. not just USB sticks, but CDs, DVDs, floppies, firewire and what have you. Well, that's what is was like at a <large London building society> where I worked in the 90s for a while. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.4°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2012-06-14 at 22:04 +1000, Basil Chupin wrote:

This, of course, is always a possibility but one has to remember that I am certain that we are talking here about releasing LIVE CDs for the Milestones and Betas and RCs and not the final release. When it comes to a final release, the 4.3GB DVD then someone who wants such a DVD would order it from a supplier like DistroWatch, for example, or download the DVD if they have the broadband and enough time and quota to be able to do so.

Or order a batch of our PromoDVDs and distribute them locally at FOSS events or universities, etc. See http://software.opensuse.org/PromoDVD The DVD is a double-sided DVD with 32-bit on one side and 64-bit on the other side and contains a promodvd image (not quite as complete as the full DVD image you can download), and live CD images for KDE and GNOME. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin wrote:

6 days ago I wrote:

/quote

Re the medium to use.

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

I did see that, but I couldn't imagine who it is that cannot boot from a USB stick? I actually have some elderly systems that can't, but those are the exception and they're quite close to ending up on ebay. I mean, even my Philips picture frame has a USB socket, if it would run Linux I'm sure it could boot from USB too :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.6°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

6 days ago I wrote:

/quote

Re the medium to use.

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium.

I did see that, but I couldn't imagine who it is that cannot boot from a USB stick?  I actually have some elderly systems that can't, but those are the exception and they're quite close to ending up on ebay.

I mean, even my Philips picture frame has a USB socket, if it would run Linux I'm sure it could boot from USB too :-)

I totally disagree based on real world experience.

Having a usb port does not mean usb booting is supported.

Completely agree Greg, lots of devices with USB ports can't boot from them - mobile phones, digital cameras, my keyring picture frames ;-), but are there really a _significant_ group of Linux-capable boxes that cannot boot from USB? I know I have some elderly Compaq Proliants and an even older IBM Netfinity that can't, but those are hardly interesting when we're talking about the Live CD. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.8°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/15 08:22 (GMT+0200) Sven Burmeister composed:

Greg Freemyer composed:

...

I totally disagree based on real world experience.

...

Having a usb port does not mean usb booting is supported.

Same for a CDROM drive (disabled in BIOS).

However, that point is moot anyway since even without a bootable usb port you can use a USB stick to start openSUSE. See http://seife.kernalert.de/blog/2009/11/24/usb-boot-enabler/

Nice! :-)

So all openSUSE would have to do – if it really wants to consider those with neither DVD, nor bootable USB port – is to provide an image to do this or integrate it into the netinstall. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 15/06/12 00:51, Per Jessen wrote:

Basil Chupin wrote:

...

6 days ago I wrote:

/quote

Re the medium to use.

The use of USB sticks is really not something to be seriously considered. Not everyone has the ability to use this medium. I did see that, but I couldn't imagine who it is that cannot boot from a USB stick? I actually have some elderly systems that can't, but those are the exception and they're quite close to ending up on ebay.

I mean, even my Philips picture frame has a USB socket, if it would run Linux I'm sure it could boot from USB too :-)

Yes, I should have been a bit more expansive in what I stated. I have 2 computers which are capable of using USB devices - but none are able to boot from USB devices because the BIOS does not have this feature. BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

...

DVD is most likely the nicest media to share on events and specially in places/people which don't have broadband. I don't believe it should be touched.

It is possible to burn ISOs which are only 3995000000 bytes sized onto a normal DVD-R medium, no problem.

Considering that most people agree that the LiveCD should move to 1GB, it sounds weird to shring the DVD media in 9% because of 4Gb USB sticks where in the civilized world a 8Gb USB stick goes for less than 6€'s (5.99 on Media Markt). Makes absolutly no sense to me... And in those cases where people might not have broadband to download and require optical media (like a DVD) you are nuking away 9% of the available storage because... well... someone thinks people use 4Gb sticks ;) Sounds like the perfect strategy to me :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

On 6/13/2012 3:45 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

...

DVD is most likely the nicest media to share on events and specially in places/people which don't have broadband. I don't believe it should be touched.

It is possible to burn ISOs which are only 3995000000 bytes sized onto a normal DVD-R medium, no problem.

Considering that most people agree that the LiveCD should move to 1GB, it sounds weird to shring the DVD media in 9% because of 4Gb USB sticks where in the civilized world a 8Gb USB stick goes for less than 6€'s (5.99 on Media Markt). Makes absolutly no sense to me... And in those cases where people might not have broadband to download and require optical media (like a DVD) you are nuking away 9% of the available storage because... well... someone thinks people use 4Gb sticks ;)

Sounds like the perfect strategy to me :)

I only ever use PXE to install or repair anymore. Anywhere in the civilized world old pc's and new netbooks are cheap and plentiful to run pxe servers on, so it makes absolutely no sense to me why we even bother with cd's or dvd's or usb sticks, everyone should just have a pxe server and a full rsync mirror of the full suse ftp site ;) Sounds like the perfect strategy to me :)

-- bkw

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I'd be fine if the Oregon State Univerity OSL mirrors had everything on "widehat" ;-) -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/14/2012 10:39 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Brian K. White wrote:

...

On 6/13/2012 3:45 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

...

DVD is most likely the nicest media to share on events and specially in places/people which don't have broadband. I don't believe it should be touched.

It is possible to burn ISOs which are only 3995000000 bytes sized onto a normal DVD-R medium, no problem.

Considering that most people agree that the LiveCD should move to 1GB, it sounds weird to shring the DVD media in 9% because of 4Gb USB sticks where in the civilized world a 8Gb USB stick goes for less than 6€'s (5.99 on Media Markt). Makes absolutly no sense to me... And in those cases where people might not have broadband to download and require optical media (like a DVD) you are nuking away 9% of the available storage because... well... someone thinks people use 4Gb sticks ;)

Sounds like the perfect strategy to me :)

I only ever use PXE to install or repair anymore. Anywhere in the civilized world old pc's and new netbooks are cheap and plentiful to run pxe servers on, so it makes absolutely no sense to me why we even bother with cd's or dvd's or usb sticks, everyone should just have a pxe server and a full rsync mirror of the full suse ftp site ;) Sounds like the perfect strategy to me :)

That's what I do too, although I leave it to squid to cache the repositories. Works very well, except in some corner cases where PXE booting doesn't work or isn't supported.

I do in fact boot most new installs and even remote repair/rescues from pxe, but you realize I was actually just joking to make a point right? I happen to be well outfitted to use pxe in most cases. I have numerous pc's and servers and netbooks and appliances all over the place, and I'm comfortable setting up the dhcp and tftp and http servers and configuring all 3 to work together to make a working boot/install system. That does not make it anywhere near a reasonable expectation for everyone, or even a large percentage of everyone. Even if they had an option in commodity home routers to serve up an iso via pxe, it would _still_ be utterly crazy as a general requirement. I assume the same is true when it comes to internet speed and bandwidth caps and usb thumb drives. Saying "8G drives are $6 is actually kind of gross. That means, all those 4G drives you already own are what? Throw them away even though you paid $30 for them? Just gross. These days I boot all my servers from usb (for normal running, not for installing or rescue) because the hard drives are all software raid using the whole drives no partitions, and I have to fight like crazy with each new motherboard to figure out just what magic secret recipe makes that particular motherboard boot reliably from usb. Sometimes it has to be placed in one special usb port, sometimes the machine needs to lose wall power during reboots or else it won't recognize the usb stick except the first time, sometimes I have to do a lot of trial & error to firgure out how to get grub and/or yast bootloader to reliably create a bootable system, or at least reliably do kernel/mkinitrd updates without breaking it if I set it up manually initially, sometimes the partition must be below a certain size, sometimes the entire stick must be below a certain size, sometimes it must be dos fdisk partitioned, sometimes it must have a fat filesystem, sometimes it can be any size and any fs, sometimes it must have a specific dos mbr, no grub or anything else in the mbr, usually there are non-obvious bios settings that must be worked out, ... it goes on and on, and in case that wasn't bad enough, mostly none of this is documented in anyone's manuals. But cd's _always_ work ever since the first bootable cd's even existed. I prefer to fight with usb and make it work in each case because the fight is getting easier as time goes on, and because the random-access re-writable usb is just so much more handy and flexible than even a technically rewritable cd-rw. cd-rw still must be mastered and burned. You can't just go add a few more files or edit a config file like you can with a usb. But it is still a fight and nothing remotely like the universality of a cd. If I had to give 1000 boot disks to 1000 strangers, it would absolutely be a cd or dvd and not a usb even if the usb's were free and the cd's were $.50 each. Really today we're still in a transition period where you really need both. There may be too many old machines with poor or inconsistent usb boot ability, but there are also now too many new machines that have no optical drive. So you just need both for now. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

Brian K. White wrote:

...

But it is still a fight and nothing remotely like the universality of a cd. If I had to give 1000 boot disks to 1000 strangers, it would absolutely be a cd or dvd and not a usb even if the usb's were free and the cd's were $.50 each.

+1

And I'd add that it would be a 32-bit Live *CD*, not a DVD, it would boot in 512 MB and it would have a "dumbed-down Linux desktop" that either looked mostly like a Mac (Unity with an openSUSE theme and all the garbage stripped out) or mostly like Windows 7 (Razor-Qt? Lightweight KDE?) at the user's choice. Maybe XFCE or LXDE or IceWM with the option of the menu at the top or bottom? ;-) -- Twitter: http://twitter.com/znmeb Computational Journalism Server http://j.mp/compjournoserver Data is the new coal - abundant, dirty and difficult to mine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques wrote:

...

I assume the same is true when it comes to internet speed and bandwidth caps and usb thumb drives. Saying "8G drives are $6 is actually kind of gross. That means, all those 4G drives you already own are what? Throw them away even though you paid $30 for them? Just gross.

You will never be able to provide a out-of-the-box solution for every single consumer of openSUSE; You go for the majority... and so far in countries like India, Brazil and others, optical media still plays a major role where you don't have internet access. So nuking away 9% storage that is available on optical media (either you use it or not) just sounds a bit harsh for the sole purpose of allowing 4Gb sticks...

Well, I also payed almost 500€'s for my graphics adapter a few years ago... Now it's pretty much obsolete... Yeah, it's gross to throw it away now and pay 500€'s more for a new one which can rule on CRISIS ;) But sure... that's how it works... things get obsoleted. Deal with it.

Yeah, of course we have to, but we also have to accept that just because something appears to be obsolete in some places, it isn't in others. Somebody today even mentioned booting from floppies, which is a technology that is obsolete to most people, yet the harddisk manufacturers remain glued to them for diagnostics and the motherobard ditto for BIOS upgrades. As far as I'm concerned, xDSL is way obsolete coz' we've got FTTH, but I know very well that xDSL has yet to be deployed in many other parts of the world. Same thing applies to computer hardware, although less so. Just the other day, I sold off a recently decommissioned, ancient IBM Netfinity with quad Xeons to a young dude who was very happy to pay me Sfr2, including the 10-drive storage array I offered him for free. We have to take a wider perspective. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Nelson Marques wrote:

2012/6/15 Per Jessen :

...

Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

I assume the same is true when it comes to internet speed and bandwidth caps and usb thumb drives. Saying "8G drives are $6 is actually kind of gross. That means, all those 4G drives you already own are what? Throw them away even though you paid $30 for them? Just gross.

You will never be able to provide a out-of-the-box solution for every single consumer of openSUSE; You go for the majority... and so far in countries like India, Brazil and others, optical media still plays a major role where you don't have internet access. So nuking away 9% storage that is available on optical media (either you use it or not) just sounds a bit harsh for the sole purpose of allowing 4Gb sticks...

Well, I also payed almost 500€'s for my graphics adapter a few years ago... Now it's pretty much obsolete... Yeah, it's gross to throw it away now and pay 500€'s more for a new one which can rule on CRISIS ;) But sure... that's how it works... things get obsoleted. Deal with it.

Yeah, of course we have to, but we also have to accept that just because something appears to be obsolete in some places, it isn't in others.

So you are basically agreeing with me... We shouldn't drop 9% of DVD storage in images because DVD's are far from obsolete in many places ?