On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Monday 31 March 2008, Alexey Eremenko said:

...

I know that Novell is heavily pushing KDE4 upon the community, but the problem is - many KDE users still prefer KDE3 due to lack-of-features in KDE4. Personally I feel KDE4 is not ready. I have filled about ~10 bugs, but most of them are still unfixed.

Remember that our 11.0 schedule means we can only implement new features for 11.0 until beta1 (in 2 weeks), so we do those first then sweep up the bugs.

Unfortunately KDE4 won't reach production-ready stage in the following months. -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 31 March 2008 19:58:59 Alexey Eremenko wrote:

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 5:19 PM, Will Stephenson wrote:

...

On Monday 31 March 2008, Alexey Eremenko said:

...

I know that Novell is heavily pushing KDE4 upon the community, but the problem is - many KDE users still prefer KDE3 due to lack-of-features in KDE4. Personally I feel KDE4 is not ready. I have filled about ~10 bugs, but most of them are still unfixed.

Remember that our 11.0 schedule means we can only implement new features for 11.0 until beta1 (in 2 weeks), so we do those first then sweep up the bugs.

Unfortunately KDE4 won't reach production-ready stage in the following months.

Could you check this page http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/KDE_on_openSUSE11.0 and tell us what is missing for your "production ready" needs, either here or on the article's Discussion page? (this applies to anyone else reading, too) Will -- Will Stephenson Desktop Engineer KDE Team --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Monday 2008-03-31 at 14:24 -0000, Alexey Eremenko wrote:

...

I know that Novell is heavily pushing KDE4 upon the community, but the problem is - many KDE users still prefer KDE3 due to lack-of-features in KDE4. Personally I feel KDE4 is not ready. I have filled about ~10 bugs, but most of them are still unfixed.

I tried kde4 in 10.3, and guess what, kde3 was deactivated as a side effect, and many thing stopped working right in kde 3, too. The problem is that you try to run a kde3 program, but the kde4 program of the same name is first on the path, so it runs that one. As they have different paths (/usr vs /opt) many thing go weird, each version of the app using their own paths and clashing. Help broke down, for instance.

Horrible!

So no, I will not install kde4 in 11.

-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.

This is not very bright thinking. You should try 11.0 A3, just with KDE4, and than judge again. 10.3 and KDE4 is just not the same. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25-rc6-git5-10-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) Alpha3 KDE: 4.00.66 (KDE 4.0.66 >= 20080313) "release 6.2" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-03-31 at 21:45 +0200, Oddball wrote:

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So no, I will not install kde4 in 11.

This is not very bright thinking. You should try 11.0 A3, just with KDE4, and than judge again. 10.3 and KDE4 is just not the same.

KDE 3 and KDE 4 are not compatible, version 4 overrides. So, unless there is an easy way to fully uninstall one and install the other... I don't see a way to try. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8VtYtTMYHG2NR9URAmjUAJ9MUoHI4qEP38308GUqFDpSg7XgAACglWX8 mQt9gTcb/llM2vPAUpWmbFk= =K7YC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 00:53 +0300, Andras Mantia wrote:

On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

KDE 3 and KDE 4 are not compatible, version 4 overrides.

They are, in a sense that they can coexist. This is just a matter to set up correctly a provide a way to launch the old version of the applications even if the new ones are installed. It's not that hard to do, the easiest way would be to use a wrapper script, so "kate" calls the KDE4 version of "kate" and "kde3 kate" calls the old one. Launching the correct application version from a menu is more trickier though (but it is possible if you really want).

No, I don't personally want to do it, I want to find it done. O:-) I found two menu entries for konqueror: both started version 4. If I entered kde 3 and opened the browser, it was version 4, inside version 3. I opened a file with kwrite and it was version 4. Everything that had a program in version 4 overrode the version 3 one, simply because the /usr path was found before /opt. There is no way as a user that I could mend that disaster. help:something failed because it didn't know how to open docbook help files - and help in kde are docbook files, no html (I didn't know that), so help didn't work. Search failed. Build search files failed. Most of it have corresponding bugzillas (I reported the help problems). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8WcutTMYHG2NR9URAnyeAJ4r/xKTBobU5BrxP5kqS23knqDzsgCfYtXq WyziQV6ss81leTKD4sDXlXk= =TpWn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 12:36 +0300, Andras Mantia wrote:

On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I found two menu entries for konqueror: both started version 4. If I entered kde 3 and opened the browser, it was version 4, inside version 3. I opened a file with kwrite and it was version 4.

Everything that had a program in version 4 overrode the version 3 one, simply because the /usr path was found before /opt.

I don't doubt this is the case in factory (I still on 10.3),

The testing I did of KDE 4 was in 10.3 too. I haven't tested it in factory.

but what I want to say is that is not that KDE3 and KDE4 are incompatible from design.

I didn't meant that much :-)

It all depends how the distribution (or you) configure your system. So I think the correct way to solve the problem is to report any issue to the KDE openSUSE team, and hope that they will configure it correctly. :)

I did mention this problem in passing when reporting problems with the help system in KDE4. I thought that the path incompatibility problem was well known and didn't bother to report it. I did ask in another list and nobody knew a word or offered any solution. Do you know that help in KDE 4 stable (10.3) does not work at all? Nor in the live demo CD, as another user told me? Konqueror "help:something" claims that it can not render the docbook help files:

...

The requested help file could not be parsed: /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en//konqueror/index.docbook

This is such a flagrant problem that must surely be known to suse/novell, no? But they have problems reported in the suse help system since last August that are yet almost untouched, so maybe they don't.

On my machine I have two KDE3 versions, one self compiled KDE4 and I can chose anytime what version of a program (or even the full desktop) want to run...

That shows it can be done. But the version available to users like me doesn't. Don't think me wrong. I do test things and report them. I have a lot of Bugzillas open, some of them with very weird bugs. But I don't concentrate in KDE, as I'm a mostly gnome user that likes to use KDE apps inside gnome. I do like KDE, its just that I like simplicity in the desktop. And sometimes I run the fully fledged KDE desktop, too. So I think that problems with KDE must be reported by testers that take more time to test it than I do and that are more used to its tricks ;-) Ok, if I can I will try KDE4 on factory on the weekend, provided I find an easy way in YaST or zypper to install it. Hopefully there will be a pattern to select KDE3/4 :-? If the rpm bz2 payload problem doesn't hit me... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8hPttTMYHG2NR9URAkT5AJ95rS7CT/eWC8eZUt+11rRYZaeQbgCgg5R8 KQ9aI9z/ugpOKInkhF0Zz/U= =g2D4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 19:27 +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 12:52:26 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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testing I did of KDE 4 was in 10.3 too. I haven't tested it in factory.

Then please either do that or unsubscribe from this mailing list.

WHY? ARE YOU THE BOSS? :-// I do test things in factory. You should know that if you search in Bugzilla for my name. I got my 10.3 Box as a reward for my testings, I believe. Quite nice. I haven't tested kde 4 in factory because it was not installed. I said I would do so provided I could find an easy way in yast or zypper to do so. Please don't be so rude to jump to rash conclusions. :-/ - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8nqxtTMYHG2NR9URApWAAJ0XksdFL4ad9omhIRIiWCH2IK8l5wCeLS0V 1PeO2bZU13god/iKAlU25FQ= =3lPC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 20:37 +0200, Oddball wrote:

He means to say that he misses you;) If you find the time, just install from a CD, short time to dl, and than factory update with the additional repos: kde4-stable/unstable, and you in bussiness....

Too much work! :-p Are there additional repos for factory? I didn't know that. I expect to try the iso dvd install in the beta stage, but meanwhile I'll stick to rug - now that it is so fast, I like it ;-) No, I use rug instead of yast because I can upgrade the factory partition from inside a running 10.3 partition. In fact, what I'd like to test is an upgrade from 10.3 to 11 using the dvd, but for that I'd need to install another partition with 10.3 and I don't have it. My other test partition has 10.2 and needs to stay because of an ugly bug with encrypted partitions in 10.3 and 11. And I don't think I can dedicate a third test partition! And I will not have time for that, anyway. Today, rather tomorrow, starts the round of translations. I'm one of the Spanish translators team, and I expect to be very busy. Each time /you/ :-p report a bug and a developer changes a single comma in a string during the Beta phase, we poor translators have to redo that part of the translation. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8owFtTMYHG2NR9URAqrLAJ9V1DALCDhbRnWlmYKhOQfPyIu3kQCfVnx1 hsPYzpkmOQxNUwr9ZnSWEC4= =I6qd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 01 April 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:

The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 19:27 +0200, Stephan Binner wrote:

...

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 12:52:26 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

testing I did of KDE 4 was in 10.3 too. I haven't tested it in factory.

Then please either do that or unsubscribe from this mailing list.

WHY? ARE YOU THE BOSS? :-//

I do test things in factory. You should know that if you search in Bugzilla for my name. I got my 10.3 Box as a reward for my testings, I believe. Quite nice.

I haven't tested kde 4 in factory because it was not installed. I said I would do so provided I could find an easy way in yast or zypper to do so.

Please don't be so rude to jump to rash conclusions. :-/ +1 M

-- Michael Löffler, Product Management Email: michl@suse.de Phone: +49 911 74053-376 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH - Nürnberg - AG Nürnberg - HRB 16746 - GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 01 April 2008 12:52:26 Carlos E. R. wrote:

I did mention this problem in passing when reporting problems with the help system in KDE4. I thought that the path incompatibility problem was well known and didn't bother to report it. I did ask in another list and nobody knew a word or offered any solution.

Do you know that help in KDE 4 stable (10.3) does not work at all? Nor in the live demo CD, as another user told me? Konqueror "help:something"

claims that it can not render the docbook help files:

...

...

   The requested help file could not be parsed:    /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en//konqueror/index.docbook

This is such a flagrant problem that must surely be known to suse/novell, no? But they have problems reported in the suse help system since last August that are yet almost untouched, so maybe they don't.

Known issue, but lower priority than the other ones, unfortunately. I hope we'll get the KDE help fixed in our packages but I don't expect the general purpose help/access to man/info/other installed documentation will work OOTB in 11.0. Will -- Will Stephenson Desktop Engineer KDE Team --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-03-31 at 23:57 +0100, Sid Boyce wrote:

I have a laptop where kde3 seems to freeze needing init 3 followed by init 5 until it freezes again with mouse cursor moveable, but does nothing and keyboard also does nothing, so at the login prompt I chose the kde4 session and all is well.

When using kde3, e.g., "which startkde" returns /opt/kde3/bin/startkde and when using kde4 it returns /usr/bin/startkde. I am able under kde3 to start the kde4 version of kate by issuing "/usr/bin/kate". On one laptop /usr/bin/kate doesn't exists, but in the applications menu it lists "kde3/kate" which works.

Where both the kde3 and kde4 apps are installed, kmenu lists both, so there is no confusion.

Except that in mine, in kde 3 there are two entries for konqueror, and both start kde 4 konqueror. I have no way to start kde 3 konqueror while kde 4 is installed, because both are in the path, and /usr is before /opt. The same happens for several apps: when an app is available in kde4, I have no way to start the kde 3 app, because it is the version 4 one that runs. Maybe with version 4 only things run better, dunno. But not all apps have been migrated, I understand. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8YFhtTMYHG2NR9URAlmYAJ9cmOClLrj6lAyx27HzAFlKPWelIACfXrHY H2m69sJpklgeJxKmqiHYA0A= =Gq9g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 10:28 +0200, Oddball wrote:

There is only KDE4 in 11 atm. If you would care to take a look, you would know.

Ok, I do care - and: cer@nimrodel:~> su - Password: nimrodel:~ # factory_prepare_bind nimrodel:/ # which konqueror /opt/kde3/bin/konqueror nimrodel:/ # rpm -q -f /opt/kde3/bin/konqueror kdebase3-3.5.9-20 nimrodel:/ # So? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8fe/tTMYHG2NR9URAv7AAJ9fUStn1YQ2X+iU6EjGoaCHr5DxBQCggpJ6 JdEzrZ9EXjvPfo8gUtOsL6Y= =T1Di -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 11:13 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 10:28 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

There is only KDE4 in 11 atm. If you would care to take a look, you would know.

Ok, I do care - and:

cer@nimrodel:~> su - Password: nimrodel: ~ # factory_prepare_bind nimrodel: / # which konqueror /opt/kde3/bin/konqueror nimrodel:/ # rpm -q -f /opt/kde3/bin/konqueror kdebase3-3.5.9-20 nimrodel:/ #

So?

Maybe we both don't understand eachother?

I'm telling you that my factory kde is version 3, as you can see above. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8g0CtTMYHG2NR9URAvzTAJ9sB8VnccacrmscnzonJJ9szjDb7wCggGx/ sjHlow7GTdQXnuXi8fj08u8= =lW2B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 15:49 +0200, Oddball wrote:

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I'm telling you that my factory kde is version 3, as you can see above.

That is too difficult for me. I installed 11.0 from day one it was available, and the only thing i know, is that kde4 is the only option.

How long ago was that? My factory is, was, the 10.3 factory, upgraded via "zypper dup" to 11.0 factory. So it is pretty old.

I don't tell you there is no underlying kde3, i would not know how the transition would have to go otherwise. Also there are apps from 3, not yet ported to 4, but functioning under 4. 11.0 A3 we have now, has some regressions, apps that worked fine at first don't now, but overall is stable, even unstable is pretty stable. The have done a mighty fine job, and very quick. To me kde3 is allready 'passee'. i only go there when 11 doesn't boot because the grub entrances are wrongly written, to adjust them, and than go quickly back to 4 ;)

Why can't you adjust grub in kde4? What is missing? The point is that kde3 is there, same as kde4. I don't know how to select installation of one or the other, but if there are apps that I need that are not ported yet, I will keep using kde3, and if kde4 wants to interfere (as it does in suse 10.3), I'll have to remove it. Unless I really need a kde4 app. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8kXetTMYHG2NR9URApDYAJ4hEGm3V0Fg5gj8g3NfUcd3ijdW9ACcCWKG YafYPyLMP+kVhaECS9MrYUA= =3XQU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-04-01 at 17:20 +0200, Oddball wrote:

...

How long ago was that?

My factory is, was, the 10.3 factory, upgraded via "zypper dup" to 11.0 factory. So it is pretty old. I did that also, but ran in the same probs as you, so installed from kde-cd11A1

Dunno, I haven't had a look at the isos. Not this round yet.

...

than go quickly back to 4 ;)

Why can't you adjust grub in kde4? What is missing?

Because it does not boot, they replaced imc (hd0,5) with the diskname ;( happens all the time) luckily 10.3 boots because there is nothing changed.

Ah! Yes, I saw that bug. It did not hit me, because I boot factory from an entry in the grub for the 10.3 partition, which I wrote manually and is not affected. Let me see... no, I think my factory menu.lst is correct, the entries show "root (hd0,7)". Curious I was not affected.

...

The point is that kde3 is there, same as kde4. I don't know how to select installation of one or the other, but if there are apps that I need that are not ported yet, I will keep using kde3, and if kde4 wants to interfere (as it does in suse 10.3), I'll have to remove it.

Yes i understand. I have installed from the kde cd, alpha 1 i think (?) There is only 4, and some nasty admin modules missing.... And i have 10.3 where is also kde3 and 4, and where i also noticed the 3 - 4 apps thing....

Ah. Well, good to know I'm not alone in noticing that problem ;-)

...

Unless I really need a kde4 app. Some of them are cute!

I'm waiting for lokalice (aka aide) to be finished... meanwhile I'll stay with kbabel. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH8nxntTMYHG2NR9URAoO+AJsHwSAfCNBHwGCc5/PuGKEEUgE5EwCfdiMg fhUEh/+MWoKtltEDwt0zt24= =uN0a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org