Mandag den 4. november 2013 17:40:29 skrev Basil Chupin:

On 04/11/13 16:05, Rajko wrote:

...

I had a problem with YaST Software Management that was closing after package(s) installation. Some anal-retentive, or -retentives, decided that "close" it should be and s/he/it will not move from this idiotic position.

You want something intelligent then do the editing yourself and change the setting to, "summary" because the anal-retentive(s) will not.

Yes, it's a very bad default. The historical reason was that previously some pop-up would appear and steal focus when YaST was done installing stuff, and some people complained about that, so YaST was made to close when done. Nowadays with the summary or restart options, the original "problem" with the pop-up no longer exists, but we're still stuck with the bad default. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 17:31:25 +0100 Lukas Ocilka wrote:

Have you tried yast-devel@opensuse.org?

Isn't that development list for programmers.

BTW, It's just a sysconfig entry so the community can tell what they want to have as a default.

User is using standalone application to edit his system. Application is closing after each edit. What would you think about standalone text editor that will close after each paragraph.

... It's hard to satisfy everyone with the same default.

You are right on this one, but now that you said that, YaST is one program that has no graphic setup. Editing /etc/sysconfig/yast2 in Kate or Gedit does not count as graphic setup. :) (yast-devel) -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Thomas Leineweber wrote:

Am 05.11.2013 06:25, schrieb Rajko:

...

On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 17:31:25 +0100

...

...

... It's hard to satisfy everyone with the same default.

You are right on this one, but now that you said that, YaST is one program that has no graphic setup. Editing /etc/sysconfig/yast2 in Kate or Gedit does not count as graphic setup. :) (yast-devel)

why do you think there is no graphical setup? Did you ever try the YaST module "/etc/sysconfig editor"? You can find and edit the setting "PKMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT" in "System > Yast2 > GUI".

Unfortunately, the /etc/sysconfig-Editor seems to be very slow at the moment, but that is a completely different and unrelated problem.

To be on topic again: I am against changing the default.

The _number_one_ question I'm asked by everyone... and I do mean everyone that I help install openSUSE is "Why is the stupid software installer always closing?" When I tell them why, and show them how to fix it, they all comment on how dumb this default is for the average user.... along with the question "How is ANYONE supposed to find that option to set in the sysconfig?" We've discussed this here in the past, and it always came down to a small group of highly experienced users who like the backwards setting as default, and a lot of inexperienced users who can't figure out why the software installer is broken by default. The small group of experienced users (the people who know how to set it to Exit) seem to win out each time... when they are the very one who are knowledgeable enough to know how to set YaST to behave in strange ways. C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2013-11-05 15:50 (GMT+0100) Carlos E. R. composed:

C wrote:

...

We've discussed this here in the past, and it always came down to a small group of highly experienced users who like the backwards setting as default, and a lot of inexperienced users who can't figure out why the software installer is broken by default. The small group of experienced users (the people who know how to set it to Exit) seem to win out each time... when they are the very one who are knowledgeable enough to know how to set YaST to behave in strange ways.

I'm experienced, I guess, and I certainly hate that default.

Maybe it's not so much about experience in general as it is about providing a patch that would change the default to something sane for most users? This to me is a polish issue that makes the openSUSE management team look rather clueless. The main problem with the current default is that there is nothing to indicate what looks like a crash is actually success. Yum, URPMI and Zypper all finish by issuing a success statement. Why that doesn't YaST do something similarly sensible by default has to be one reason why some users who try openSUSE don't stick with it. I wonder if whoever has been responsible for striking down every movement to change this is still around. Lots of personnel changes have been made in openSUSE in recent times. Maybe the time has come for someone to open a new bug with a patch attached. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2013-11-05 17:03, Felix Miata wrote:

The main problem [of yast2_sw] with the current default is that there is nothing to indicate what looks like a crash is actually success. Yum, URPMI and Zypper all finish by issuing a success statement. Why that doesn't YaST do something similarly sensible by default

Especially since, if memory serves right, yast1 did emit a "i'm done" message and also gave the option to remain in yast_sw to select more packages. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/05/2013 03:37 PM, C wrote:

...

To be on topic again: I am against changing the default. The _number_one_ question I'm asked by everyone... and I do mean everyone that I help install openSUSE is "Why is the stupid software installer always closing?" When I tell them why, and show them how to fix it, they all comment on how dumb this default is for the average user.... along with the question "How is ANYONE supposed to find that

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Thomas Leineweber wrote: option to set in the sysconfig?"

We've discussed this here in the past, and it always came down to a small group of highly experienced users who like the backwards setting as default, and a lot of inexperienced users who can't figure out why the software installer is broken by default. The small group of experienced users (the people who know how to set it to Exit) seem to win out each time... when they are the very one who are knowledgeable enough to know how to set YaST to behave in strange ways.

BTW, are you talking about all the Yast configuration modules or just Software Management? Because setting the sysconfig entry would only change Software Management, the rest of Yast always closes and will always close - that's, IMO, why Software Management does the same by default. Changing all the Yast modules to read and use the sysconfig entry is no go as there's, in fact, nobody who would be able to change them. That's too much work. Additionally, right now, most of the Yast modules have either [OK] or even [Finish] button to save settings and CLOSE the module. There's usually no [Apply] button (except Storage?). Having [OK] button to save and close a configuration dialog is similar to Windows - at least how I remember Windows :) Please make clear what you want to achieve and why. As stated before: Yast should not set the default but the product itself, according to my running system /etc/sysconfig/yast2 is not owned by any package. At the end, some sane default has to be set globally and someone has to decide. This is openSUSE, so you might try voting, for instance. I will not tell you what is good and what is wrong, although I'm personally used to closing at the end, I don't even think about changing it. And BTW2: I prefer using zypper :) in these days, it's faster. -- Lukas Ocilka, Cloud & Systems Management Department SUSE LINUX s.r.o., Praha -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 3:47 PM, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 05.11.2013 17:09, schrieb Lukas Ocilka:

...

Having [OK] button to save and close a configuration dialog is similar to Windows - at least how I remember Windows :)

That's true, but the software management module is special as it probably (have not used it since zypper became usable at ~11.0) * takes long to start up (refreshing repos, loading repo data) * is often used multiple times in a row (install one package, then notice that some other component is missing, install the next package, repeat until all dependencies are solved)

...

Please make clear what you want to achieve and why. As stated before: Yast should not set the default but the product itself, according to my running system /etc/sysconfig/yast2 is not owned by any package.

Nothing in /etc/sysconfig is owned by any rpm package: all is installed by fillup.

Technically, those files in /etc/sysconfig should be marked as %ghost and %config(noreplace). Presumably, doing so in an automated fashion would not be difficult, as the fillup stuff is already done by macro. -- Jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 04 Nov 2013 16:49:36 +0100 Martin Schlander wrote:

Mandag den 4. november 2013 17:40:29 skrev Basil Chupin:

...

On 04/11/13 16:05, Rajko wrote:

...

I had a problem with YaST Software Management that was closing after package(s) installation. Some anal-retentive, or -retentives, decided that "close" it should be and s/he/it will not move from this idiotic position.

You want something intelligent then do the editing yourself and change the setting to, "summary" because the anal-retentive(s) will not.

Yes, it's a very bad default.

The historical reason was that previously some pop-up would appear and steal focus when YaST was done installing stuff, and some people complained about that, so YaST was made to close when done.

Nowadays with the summary or restart options, the original "problem" with the pop-up no longer exists, but we're still stuck with the bad default.

Several years ago, YaST Software Management used to have an option in the menu that you could change so that it would stay open once the installation had completed; I don't recall whether 'summary' was also an option. I'm not against the default action but wish the option to change the default was returned to the menu; I don't understand why it was removed. -- Graham Davis, Bracknell, Berks. openSUSE 13.1-RC2 (64-bit); KDE 4.11.2; AMD Phenom II X2 550 Processor; Kernel: 3.11.6; Video: nVidia GeForce 210 (using nouveau driver); Sound: ATI SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA); Wireless: BCM4306 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bruno Friedmann writes:

/etc/sysconfig/yast2 come from nowhere :-) rpm -qf = nobody knows

$ rpm -qf /var/adm/fillup-templates/sysconfig.yast2 yast2-2.23.23-1.4.1.x86_64 Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dne 6.11.2013 09:42, Lukas Ocilka napsal(a): [...]

Adding Ladislav to tell us more, hopefully he still remembers.

This is actually a never ending story. In a galaxy far far away... Yast simply finished at the end. Then the package manager implementation was changed and libzypp was introduced. But the first versions were pretty slow so people complained that starting the module again takes a lot of time. So we added a popup saying "done" and then the module was restarted. Ok, good. Later, after libzypp was improved and got much faster, people complained that going back was not necessary and who needed to install more packages should have started Yast again. More over the popup was intrusive for some people. So we removed the popup and finished the module. Like at the very beginning. But then some people complaied that their loved popup is missing and should be added back... At this point I got fed up and introduced the PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT sysconfig value so everybody could set the preferred value. To keep the backward compatibilty I decided to use the "close" default. But then people didn't like the default... yeah... I'd love to solve it once and for all. The current obstacle seems to be in changing the sysconfig value. So my proposal is: - Use "summary" value by default in the syscofig option. - Add a combo box with values like "Show this summary", "Start again", "Finish" to the summary dialog. This would change the sysconfig value accordingly. That would allow to easily change the default for people who don't like it and the summary default should be acceptable for majority of the users. What do you think about it? Any ideas, better solutions? -- Ladislav Slezák Appliance department / YaST Developer Lihovarská 1060/12 190 00 Prague 9 / Czech Republic tel: +420 284 028 960 lslezak@suse.com SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Ladislav Slezak [11-15-13 11:40]: [...]

I'd love to solve it once and for all.

The current obstacle seems to be in changing the sysconfig value.

So my proposal is:

- Use "summary" value by default in the syscofig option.

- Add a combo box with values like "Show this summary", "Start again", "Finish" to the summary dialog. This would change the sysconfig value accordingly.

That would allow to easily change the default for people who don't like it and the summary default should be acceptable for majority of the users.

What do you think about it? Any ideas, better solutions?

As *no-one* will *ever* be _completely_ satisfied, your proposal seems middle-ground and *should* appease nearly everyone, I say "Go For It". And thank-you for your indulgence and good manners. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Ladislav Slezak wrote:

So my proposal is:

- Use "summary" value by default in the syscofig option.

- Add a combo box with values like "Show this summary", "Start again", "Finish" to the summary dialog. This would change the sysconfig value accordingly.

That would allow to easily change the default for people who don't like it and the summary default should be acceptable for majority of the users.

What do you think about it? Any ideas, better solutions?

I'd say spot on, and exactly the solution that makes sense. This makes it logical and easy for new-to-openSUSE users to set the default they prefer... and for the rest of us grumpy old farts as well. C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:38:13 +0100 Ladislav Slezak wrote:

Add a combo box with values like "Show this summary", "Start again", "Finish"

There is "Configuration" menu item at the top of YaST Software Management (YSM) window which is item that should be used to open configuration window which will hold all configuration options. In other words instead of patching just this particular issue we are better off to take slower approach and rework GUI to fit user expectations that were created with other GUI applications. There is even more then menu items, for instance, buttons in YaST Software Management and summary screen need help too. ------------------------------- YaST Software Management: "Cancel" "Accept" should be "Cancel" "Installation" While "Cancel" is clear what it means and it does what user expects, "Accept" is actually wrong. "Accept" implies that installation proposal will be checked and then YSM will ask for final confirmation, similar to one used during openSUSE installation. That confirmation dialog does not exist for a long time, if it ever existed. In other words actual action is installation and button should tell that. ------------------------------- to help confusion, after "Accept" comes "Installation Summary" that can be taken as proposal, not as report about performed installation, and users may consider that "Back" button will allow changes. ------------------------------- Summary screen: "Abort" "Back" "Finish" should be "Abort" "Install more" "Finish" or "Abort" "Install More" "Done" "Back" is used to go back on screens that succeed one after another in order to change previous screen(s) with final goal to have different outcome of setup, or installation. That is how "Back" button is working during installation. On "Installation Summary" screen, going back will not present you with screen that will allow to undo last changes, but with empty YSM screen, which one would expect after pressing button with a name "Install more". ------------------------------- In both of above cases there is no problem with old documentation that is using "Accept" and "Back" as new proposed names don't need further explanation. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:40:42 +0100 Christian Boltz wrote:

Hello,

your proposals look good. Let me add another one ;-)

Am Sonntag, 17. November 2013 schrieb Rajko:

...

to help confusion, after "Accept" comes "Installation Summary" that can be taken as proposal, not as report about performed installation, and users may consider that "Back" button will allow changes.

Maybe the headline should be changed to "Installation Report"?

It should be; specially it is an easy fix, at least for guys that deal with libyui-qt-pkg very often. Looking at strings in the code, it seems that is possible to change only to user visible button names, leaving the rest for later times. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org