Op 20-8-2012 9:09, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar schreef:

Quoting DenverD :

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On 08/19/2012 09:18 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Sonntag, 19. August 2012, 20:37:40 schrieb DenverD:

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explaining to a new user (after their system is trashed) how to disable apper/packagekit leaves no rational/believable answer to their question: Why do you include software known to kill a system?

Could you please point out how an app which does not work/does not allow vendor changes can trash a system in a way zypper etc. cannot?

nope i can't do that..

and, of course we don't even have to use zypper or apper to trash the system, do we..

but the problem i'm talking about that not many new in from Windows will attempt to update/install with zypper (at least until they learn what a "terminal" is) but they will sure find many dozens of "1-Click Intall" buttons which by default leave a _wide_ variety of repos enabled (which the usual new user will happily leave enabled--hey its FREE, so it must be good to have more and more)....and then apper pops up list of upgraded software (NOT just from the update repo) and the new users automatically (seems like--since they are conditioned by their previous OS) give the go-ahead allowing the pop-up to make their decisions and just load up conflicting software and kill their system..

Well, not arguing about the fact of it breaking systems, but the 'Please offer me all package updates, not only patches' was IIRC a big request, as users felt that they are left out with updates from repos. (From memory.. can't really just fnd references to it at the moment).

In gnome, the 'biggest' issue is probably the lack of a panel icon to configure it, but that should not really be an issue: like anything else, PackageKit is being configured from the control-center, where a link to gpk-prefs is located (allowing to 'disable' updates).

We might as well argue that 'yast' should not interact with libzypp dirctly, but streamline the entire package management through packagekit (thus being a different frontend to PK). As backend, we can still use libzypp.

This would likely allow much easier integration.

Dominique

My answer does not directly fit seemlessly into this conversation, but i remember that during oS 10. and following, yast had a similar phase, then 'smart' package manager became known as a wrecker of systems. Yast was even further from the finish as apper now.... and look where yast is now: most prominent packaging system known in the linuxworld, which it is. This was the phase after the '9 series', and leaving the redhat package management. Yast has improved very much since these days. The only thing that is not 'fitting' in kde is apper's 'gnomish' style.... I have seen it improve, even the recent updates show progress. There are some things that are not perfect yet, and what in any case should be solved are the things that show it is not ready: downloadstatus, which is working in both yast and zypper, so that can't be this difficult. Wrecking the system, is easy if you are not aware what you are doing. This is also the quick learning curve one has to accept once accepted linux: How do i wreck my system? and: How do i repair it again? (look at the most beautifull and exiting question there is: How?) I do agree with those who say: save it, but also to those who say: start doing it. my 2cts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting "Carlos E. R." :

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On 2012-08-20 09:09, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

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Well, not arguing about the fact of it breaking systems, but the 'Please offer me all package updates, not only patches' was IIRC a big request, as users felt that they are left out with updates from repos. (From memory.. can't really just fnd references to it at the moment).

Yes, I remember that.

New users should not get prompted to update all. Perhaps the default should be different.

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In gnome, the 'biggest' issue is probably the lack of a panel icon to configure it, but that should not really be an issue: like anything else, PackageKit is being configured from the control-center, where a link to gpk-prefs is located (allowing to 'disable' updates).

Let me see. I'm using 12.1 xfce now, which is similar to gnome and in fact shares libraries and things. In the preferences panel I see nothing to configure the likes of apper.

Assuming that XFCE uses really the same stuff as gnome (and shares this as well), you would launch gpk-prefs to configure it (gpk being gnome package kit). Not sure where XFCE lists it.. Please let's stop confusing apper (which is a frontend) with other things.. it really does not help. * Simplistic split of the various used names: * PackageKit: http://packagekit.org/ (the backend) gnome-packagekit: A frontend to PK, 'gnome'-ish Apprt: A frontend to PK, KDE-ish (Qt). Former KPackageKit http://dantti.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/apper-kpackagekit-reworked-part-i/ Let's talk about the right things when reporting issues, shall we try? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting Guido Berhoerster :

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Assuming that XFCE uses really the same stuff as gnome (and shares this as well), you would launch gpk-prefs to configure it (gpk being gnome package kit). Not sure where XFCE lists it..

In order to disable, see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/45062 For the rest see "man pk-update-icon" and modify the autostart desktop file accordingly.

Thanks for that info Guido! So disabling it is really no black magic it seems. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Brian K. White [2012-08-20 17:56]:

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Let me see. I'm using 12.1 xfce now, which is similar to gnome and in fact shares libraries and things. In the preferences panel I see nothing to configure the likes of apper.

Assuming that XFCE uses really the same stuff as gnome (and shares this as well), you would launch gpk-prefs to configure it (gpk being gnome package kit). Not sure where XFCE lists it..

In order to disable, see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.suse.opensuse.devel/45062 For the rest see "man pk-update-icon" and modify the autostart desktop file accordingly.

How in 9 hells is the regular user expected to find THAT?

The person who can find that stuff is also the person who didn't need you to tell them since they googled up something similar themselves already. The regular user is not on this list and didn't see this post and probably won't even find it by googling. The regular user is simply left looking at a system that isn't working. So no matter which way you come at it, this is not a useful answer to the problem.

He's telling you what the system presents to the user, so that you can see how incomplete it is. He's not saying he literally can't figure out how to fix his own single system.

He's telling you that it's not reasonable to answer the question of the misbehaving system with "just surgically disable that misbehaving part" when the system does not present the user with an obvious way to do that.

The regular user does not even know there are 5 different parts to the overall failing system, let alone which one of those parts is the one that's at fault, let alone how to disable that one without uninstalling, let alone what harm may or may not come from disabling or uninstalling or even merely changing any settings of any of those parts, even IF any such settings were even presented to them in the first place.

I just pointed out that it is fairly straightforward to disable update notifications, not that a user unfamiliar with the package management infrastructure would easily find out why YaST or zypper are blocked, that I agree is valid criticism. It also isn't helpful that there are three different, supported tools for package management which all behave differently with regard to resolving dependencies, calling SUSEConfig etc. and having three layers of package management (rpm, libzypp, PK) seems to make it harder to maintain than it'd need to be. -- Guido Berhoerster -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-20 17:10, Sven Burmeister wrote:

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 07:55:44 schrieb DenverD:

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then they show up in the forums with blood-shot eyes and 10, 15 or 25 enabled and refreshed repos that apper/package kit is serving death from...asking why they can no longer boot, or . . .

And its not apper's fault.

So what you want is to revert the decision to show all non-vendor-change updates. After that you will have the request to show them again. Once you allow to add third party repos they might also contain security-relevant updates, hence showing them does make some sense.

The only solution I see is to provide a GUI-option to switch the behaviour.

If you want to prevent users from screwing-up their system apper is not the piece of software to look at. You will have to restrict one-clicks-installs, zypper up and YaST's non-YOU update functionality.

It is a combination of blame between one click and apper - and by apper I include all the frontends to package kit however they are called. 1) The user activates many repos, some duplicated, as a result of using one click. 2) The user installs mixed updates from any repos, as a result of using apper. The result of this combination is a broken system. Another problem in multiuser environments is that not all users should have the applet running, nor should they be prompted to do updates. This is a thing for the admin user to decide. So it should be possible to limit which users run it, perhaps by adjusting the permissions of the applets. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAyVsgACgkQIvFNjefEBxpZEACgqTPGvC7yMlHfL7IrUrdoITEE QhcAnAuxWhqB/FG+v1mTWTxclsVZ+gB4 =athK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 17:24:56 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

It is a combination of blame between one click and apper - and by apper I include all the frontends to package kit however they are called.

1) The user activates many repos, some duplicated, as a result of using one click. 2) The user installs mixed updates from any repos, as a result of using apper.

The result of this combination is a broken system.

That only confirms that you can break your system with zypper up or YaST as well and there is nothing special to apper or packagekit. In fact at least apper makes it harder to break dependencies than yast or zypper because you get no dialogue that allows you to chose the dep breaking. And it confirms that breaking the system is related to showing all no-vendor-change updates or not, i.e. a back-end setting rather than a bug. If packagekit and hence apper is told to show all no-vendor-change updates and it does so, they work perfectly fine. How to set the back-end has nothing to with packagekit etc. but is a simple matter of taking a decision. It is exactly the same as the default settings in zypp's conf.

Another problem in multiuser environments is that not all users should have the applet running, nor should they be prompted to do updates. This is a thing for the admin user to decide. So it should be possible to limit which users run it, perhaps by adjusting the permissions of the applets.

That argument misses the point. Simply because a) most of the times there is no admin and not more than one user per system, i.e. typical home user. b) if there is an admin he already has the means to disable/configure via policykit etc. per user. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 19:17:21 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 2012-08-20 17:59, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 17:24:56 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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The result of this combination is a broken system.

That only confirms that you can break your system with zypper up or YaST as well and there is nothing special to apper or packagekit.

Yes, there is: they respect vendor.

Didn't you read the previous mails? the zypp-backend to pk and hence apper does as well. But zypper and YaST do allow you to change it, apper doesn't. So which one prevents vendor change better?

and yast default update application,

Wrong. It depends on the repo you pick and you can even list all packages fromall repos.

YOU, will not apply updates from any repo but one.

Never challenged that.

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That argument misses the point. Simply because a) most of the times there is no admin and not more than one user per system, i.e. typical home user.

In a typical home the computer may be used by more than one person.

_May_ (decreases the relevance) and _may_ use it at the same time (decreases it even further) and knows the root password but should not be allowed to install updates… How close to zero relevance are we with the permissions issue?

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b) if there is an admin he already has the means to disable/configure via policykit etc. per user.

Don't make me laugh. Where is the easy GUI for adjusting policykit?

In KDE's systemsettings for example, all you need is a mouse and the ability to read. And what kind of admin needs a GUI anyway or is not competent enough to flip some switches but calls himself admin nonetheless? Your argumentation is not consistent. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 20:39:50 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

apper and friends as far a I know update from any repo in a mix. It doesn't matter what vendor they come from.

So you prefer to spread FUD instead of making sure? Ok, that explains a lot. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 22:59:51 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2012-08-20 22:18, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 20:39:50 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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apper and friends as far a I know update from any repo in a mix. It doesn't matter what vendor they come from.

So you prefer to spread FUD instead of making sure? Ok, that explains a lot. FUD? It is the reality, you prefer to ignore it.

Your "reality"? https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=637764 Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 14:33:34 schrieb Steven Hess:

All I can tell you on my system packagekit blocked access to YAST software management. It would not die when told to and blocked my access. Nothing should ever block my access to YAST software managment. I removed the offending packages.

This is not FUD this is how it worked or I should say didn't work.

Until this is fixed it should not be part of and openSUSE release.

In the sub-thread you answered to, the topic was not the blocking but vendor- change updates and being able to mess-up the system with apper. So please do not mix the context to your liking, alleging that FUD was used in the context of the zypp backend to PackageKit blocking zypper. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 21/08/12 08:45, Carl Fletcher wrote:

On 20/08/12 22:33, Steven Hess wrote:

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All I can tell you on my system packagekit blocked access to YAST software management. Yes, it does. Which is one of the reasons I remove it.

I can't believe this thread. It's just one massive 'rant'. I just don't have time to work on it with all my other obligations/work Otherwise I'd install it and work with improving it. I can't see why it shouldn't function in the desired manner.

Also, I usually have too many repos in play to leave Apper on the loose.

You can select which repos Apper should use in its settings dialog. Bob -- Bob Williams System: Linux 3.1.10-1.16-desktop Distro: openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) with KDE Development Platform: 4.9.00 "release 555" Uptime: 06:00am up 9 days 7:10, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.04, 0.05 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:39:50 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

apper and friends as far a I know update from any repo in a mix. It doesn't matter what vendor they come from.

Just checked: "zypper up" and update with Appper give the same package set. To see about vendors and vendor change I used "zypper -vv up" and there was few different vendors, but no vendor change. What kills systems is arbitrary vendor change, where system is updated with files that have higher version number, but in reality it is older software, or software compiled with different compilation options that are incompatible with the rest of the system. In other words the most recent version of Apper: ------------------------------------------------ Version 0.7.2 Using KDE Development Platform 4.9.00 "release 559" ------------------------------------------------ doesn't allow vendor change, and it will not kill user system. For software under development (v. 0.7.2), we must talk about versions, otherwise we don't speak about the same set of features and bugs, and the whole discussion is moot. This specially valid in open source where software is released as soon as possible to be tested by users. Of course, when such piece of code is meant to run as a service that is not trivial to stop like some application, it must be supplied with obvious way to stop until bugs are fixed and it works fine with the rest of the system. Also, when we help new users we must have current information about software, otherwise we don't help, just the opposite. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:04:12 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote: ...

Correct, and this has happened.

With some package management, some time ago. I guess that you see what I'm trying to say.

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In other words the most recent version of Apper ... doesn't allow vendor change, and it will not kill user system.

Well, that is good. What about the applet used by gnome?

Hey :) 1) That is not Apper. 2) I have no idea about GNOME, as it is still kind of running in my VirtualBox. I can see only fallback mode, so I don't feel compelled to try it out. 2) Xfce is also something that I don't see often. It is a bit minimalistic; too much of conveniences are missing.

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... to be tested by users.

I no longer test this part of the software, I stopped trusting it long ago.

Take time for a greater good :) Nothing big, just when you hit the problem, check versions etc, and report it.

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Also, when we help new users we must have current information about software, otherwise we don't help, just the opposite.

Right, which is one of the reasons I asked for volunteers to do so ;-)

Funny. >:-) I will volunteer to appear in Forums, but I need someone to tell me which post; one at the time. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi, Le mercredi 22 août 2012, à 02:16 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 2012-08-22 01:56, Rajko wrote:

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On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 08:04:12 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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Well, that is good. What about the applet used by gnome?

Hey :) 1) That is not Apper.

I know. I do not know how it is called in gnome.

It has no real name. Technically, it's the update plugin in gnome-settings-daemon. So let's call it "update process in GNOME" or something similar -- as long as it's not ambiguous, this is fine. Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 22. August 2012, 10:27:03 schrieb DenverD:

On 08/22/2012 01:56 AM, Rajko wrote:

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I will volunteer to appear in Forums, but I need someone to tell me which post; one at the time.

do you wish to be notified each time a new user wrecks their system with apper/packagekit/whatever-the-gnome-thing-is-named by having conflicting repos added by 1-Click installs and a non-YaST package manager gone wild?

I would like alerts whenever somebody spreads FUD about this issue. Bing! And whenever somebody does not learn the facts he is offered about something he got wrong. Bing! And whenever somebody goes wild mixing issues to his liking ignoring the bits that do not fit in. Bing! Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 22. August 2012, 14:59:41 schrieb DenverD:

On 08/22/2012 11:03 AM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

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Am Mittwoch, 22. August 2012, 10:27:03 schrieb DenverD:

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On 08/22/2012 01:56 AM, Rajko wrote:

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I will volunteer to appear in Forums, but I need someone to tell me which post; one at the time.

do you wish to be notified each time a new user wrecks their system with apper/packagekit/whatever-the-gnome-thing-is-named by having conflicting repos added by 1-Click installs and a non-YaST package manager gone wild?

you have a right to your opinion even when it is incorrect, unsupportable and presented in a very childish way.

Funny though that you cannot present any facts to prove your point of "unsupportable". The facts about apper not doing vendor-change-updates by default and not even offering the user a choice to do so (as yast and zypper do) etc., which I presented, are childish (and as such presented) indeed, aren't they?

there is no FUD in the fact that since 11.something that packagekit and YaST/zypper have conflicted, especially among the new users wooed into using 1-Click installs..

Ah, as foretold in another email of this thread, now you retreat from "wreck their system" to "pk blocks zypper". Thanks for proving me right. But please do not change the context of what my answer related to, it was the wrecking + going wild and not the blocking. Nobody ever challenged the latter and the context of my answer is quite easy to spot if you read the quote. I'm sure I am right about you, Carlos etc. clinging to your magic "apper rules package management" and makes everything else ignore zypp's conf files. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/23/2012 02:09 AM, Rajko wrote:

There is no much chance to wreck the system with current version of Apper, so it would be interesting to know how that happened and what frontend was involved.

the 'current' version of apper that a new user would install is the one in the most current released version of openSUSE.. and i just now see the second post from a person naming apper as the update source which 'wrecked' his day: see alt.os.linux.suse "LXDE Menu lost most entries" Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:52:58 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: anyone here who wishes can step in the breach, and i will step out. but be advised that telling the user he shot himself in the foot by not being born knowing how to deal with the end-to-end package management system including "apper" . . . dd ps: i will advise you (Rajko) as i see similar show up...do you want the notification here or in private mail? and, you plan to help them restore their system, as well as collect information, right? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 23. August 2012, 11:06:46 schrieb DenverD:

On 08/23/2012 02:09 AM, Rajko wrote:

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There is no much chance to wreck the system with current version of Apper, so it would be interesting to know how that happened and what frontend was involved.

the 'current' version of apper that a new user would install is the one in the most current released version of openSUSE..

Nope, the one for 12.1 as well, as the bug report I posted would have told you if you had read it. Not sure whether 11.4 even had apper.

and i just now see the second post from a person naming apper as the update source which 'wrecked' his day:

Nice example. The user added non-default repos. Not apper's fault. The user enabled automatic updates. Not default, not apper's fault. Running "zypper up" would have caused exactly the same. "YaST > Packages > All packages > update if more recent version available" would have done the same as well. But it's of course only apper that is broken and responsible because it did as told by the user, i.e. update packages, obeying the user's config! Not the updated package which messed-up his config. Not the user who took the risk of adding non-standard repos etc. In fact, apper seems to be the only thing in that list who did its job right. I claim that it's valid to assume that people adding non-standard repos would also run zypper up or use YaST to do so if apper etc. were not available. After all, why did they add the repos in the first place, if they want to stick with oss + official updates? Sven PS: If you had read the bug report you would also know that by changing the zypp conf you can make all pk frontends show only official updates as well. But if that was default users did and will again complain that it does not show the updated (non-vendor-change) packages of the non-standard repos they added for a reason. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/23/2012 12:10 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote:

So where is the thread to bash zypper up for wrecking days and systems, being buggy, removing it from the distro, telling everybody to remove the package and rename the binary to make sure it cannot cause any trouble etc.?

you *are* tiring! yes, i know (now that someone else [thank you Vincent] took the adult style trouble to explain the end-to-end package management system to me (a user not a hacker) that what was reported over and over and over by new _users_ as an apper problem is actually a stack problem where the pieces just don't work together in the best interest of any user, and especially not new users.. you might have been able to do that but, instead you elected to teat me like an idiot with your childish, comedy routine of multiple "Bing!" "Bing!" "Bing!" so, if you care: you can find plenty of examples of _me_ (and others in the fora) bashing the normal 1-Click Install default of leaving numerous added "non-default repos" enabled and refreshing..[which the new user does not know is a risk] and, you can find plenty of examples of where i have tried to stop the far too often misuse of zypper 'up' and 'dup' while "non-default repos" are active..[which the new user does not know is a risk] and, you can also find similar cries to not use YaST "switch vendor" to do the same while "non-default repos" are active.. [which the new user does not know is a risk] so yes: non-default repos load the gun and apper, packagekit, zypper and YaST can all be used to pull the trigger.. so, perhaps 'we' ought to: 1. begin by changing the default behavior of 1-Clicks 2. try to figure out a way to have people born with an understanding our end-to-end package management system AND the ways it can be deadly. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/23/12 11:57, Sven Burmeister pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Am Donnerstag, 23. August 2012, 13:51:20 schrieb DenverD:

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On 08/23/2012 12:10 PM, Sven Burmeister wrote: end-to-end package management system AND the ways it can be deadly.

There have been decisions made for the defaults. Obviously those decisions can be changed, e.g. by introducing a GUI switch to either show only what zypper patch would show or what zypper up would show and default to the former.

Without that easy switch you end-up with lots of users complaining about repo updates not showing up.

Sven

Perhaps a small change in zypper to use only the default openSUSE repos such as oss, non-oss, source and update and to include all other configured repos use something like: zypper up --all to include third party repos. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/23/2012 06:29 PM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

(I will only argue about this in a*bug report*)

i'm so far past tired of arguing what is at fault, and what is not that i'm promising myself this is my last post on the matter, ever! everyone who wants to argue go ahead...in the mean time what we have _now_ in the default 12.1 + updates will sure FAIL to function as many expect it should. and, afaict no hope it is repaired in 12.2 yes, we should have users with less ignorance and more willingness to read more...the devs can keep wishing for that while they keep on promoting: its the dumb users fault (for not changing the configs, or allowing a non-default repo, or or or) you all win this round: you have your way and this guy trying to help the new user be able to boot again goes back to that. dd i should'a never posted the first time in factory. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 24. August 2012, 02:32:54 schrieb Joachim Schrod:

Do you even *know* what a novice is? Do you really believe everybody is born with the same amount of knowledge about openSUSE than you?

I smell polemics.

You tell me it's not appers fault. OK. I recognize it's not the user's fault which you doesn't seem to do. So, it's openSUSE's fault in putting the parts in this distribution as it is. And that's what Carlos et.al. is trying to tell you. And you don't even listen for a second. Shame on you.

You rather seem to miss the point and ignore most of what they wrote. What you are talking about, and you would know if you had read the thread open minded, is to change defaults. Nobody ever stated that this was impossible or bad, just that it will cause the other half of users to complain. I even suggested a way to get around that by introducing a GUI switch. Carlos et al were bashing apper because its alleged /buggyness/ would mess-up systems etc., i.e. it not working as it is told by the configs, ignoring vendor stickyness etc. Too bad you missed that part. But very convenient indeed if one is into one sidedness!

Do you ever take into account that there are newbies that don't act in the same »sven-knows-it-all-and-there's-no-other-view-on-the-world« way than you do? And that we shouldn't let them suffer for it? Well, doesn't seem so.

You are hopeless.

Or just sticking to the topic and not mixing things up. And of course it was me who decided to set the defaults as they are and thus let the users "suffer". How narrow minded does one have to be to twist the facts in this thread as you do?

PS: I don't care at all if apper or other GUI updater notification stuff works or not. I don't use them and I don't need them. But I care about folks dissing community members who are on the front line and put lots of effort in helping novice users, while this guy does nothing constructively on this front.

You should not judge others by your own standards. It's always quite embarrassing if it turns out wrong. And no, I'm not into a competition to search and count how many times person x vs person y has helped others. So if you are keen on those stats, you will have to get them yourself go through all the mailinglists, irc channels etc. But who needs facts if polemics are that much easier to get into. I'm not trying to convince anyone of some opinion, it's useless anyway if people start off with bashing, presenting their opinion as facts, instead of asking for information to make sure they are right. But I do get fed-up with people spreading FUD. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 23. August 2012, 22:38:23 schrieb Rajko:

This one: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux.suse/hsKm2cMyyCA

User doesn't cooperate in your attempts to find a reason why it happened. I'll just watch that.

There is a thread on the opensuse forums with the same topic. That user used zypper up to update, i.e. the same as apper does. The user had to downgrade a package, I think it was menu-cache and wanted to report the issue with LXDE.

I'll see what comes out of another thread. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux.suse/bODH4JSesoY

This is a known issue. There is even a bug reported at novell I think. AFAIK the updates get installed according to the configs and one can ignore the message. So it's annoying but not causing any trouble. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 09:43:35 +0200 Sven Burmeister wrote:

You forget the magic others experienced!

I don't, but, as you did, I see talk about all versions and flavors of KPackageKit, Apper, gnome package kit, released in the last 2 years; all at the same time. That was the reason to ask people to reference what they talk about. Also, from whole thread is clear that whoever is busy with fixing and promoting current breed of simple package management will do great favor to community with some half technical introduction in a whole system, so that helpers on the mail lists and forums finally can tell something else then "remove it" as a cure to the problems. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 21 août 2012, à 18:26 -0500, Rajko a écrit :

Also, from whole thread is clear that whoever is busy with fixing and promoting current breed of simple package management will do great favor to community with some half technical introduction in a whole system, so that helpers on the mail lists and forums finally can tell something else then "remove it" as a cure to the problems.

I thought we already had a few mails with such an intro, but maybe that was not enough, so here's an attempt. The global architecture looks like this: frontend (UI) -> PackageKit -> PackageKit zypp backend -> libzypp -> rpm I assume we don't care much about the "libzypp -> rpm" part, since it's pretty low-level. So we have a frontend: - This can be apper, pk-update-icon, or the update plugin in gnome-settings-daemon. - This frontend generally has a UI, but can also be UI-less (for instance, when the update plugin in GNOME looks if there's an update, there's no UI displayed). - The frontend will use dbus to talk to PackageKit. If PackageKit is not running, then it will automatically start the PackageKit daemon. - Usually, those frontends would only wake up the PackageKit daemon once a day, unless there's an explicit action from the user (like using the frontend to install a package). If the frontends ping PackageKit more than that, then it's usually a bug in the frontend. - There might be options to configure the frontends (gpk-prefs in GNOME, for instance). - For the "update icons" (generic name for different things in all the desktops), we usually need a process that is always running in the user session. pk-update-icon is a good and simple example of this. You can usually disable this process somehow. For instance, in XFCE, you simple remove the autostart for pk-update-icon. In GNOME, you disable the update plugin of gnome-settings-daemon (it's a gsettings key). Disabling those icons means that PackageKit will never be started, unless there's a direction from the user via a frontend. Then we have PackageKit: - It's a daemon offering an abstraction layer over dbus of the packaging system, so that it offers the same dbus API on all systems, even though people might be using different packaging systems (rpm vs deb, but also yum vs zypp). - Several applications can talk to the PackageKit daemon at the same time because it centralizes all the requests to the packaging system. - Note that the PackageKit daemon is /usr/lib/packagekitd. - There are different configuration options, see files in /etc/PackageKit/ (PackageKit.conf, mostly). - On openSUSE, the PackageKit daemon exits after being idle for 15 seconds (option in PackageKit.conf). So usually, the PackageKit daemon is not running. - The daemon uses a backend to talk to the packaging system. In openSUSE, this is the zypp backend. PackageKit itself is usually fine, issues are generally in the backend. Then we have the zypp backend in PackageKit: - This is the small code that enables PackageKit to work in openSUSE by using libzypp. This makes PackageKit generally behave like other libzypp-based tools (zypper, yast, etc.). - As libzypp is using a lock to avoid multiple applications doing zypp stuff at the same time, the zypp backend can block zypper/yast/etc. This is the same thing as zypper blocking the yast tool, or yast blocking zypper. - Knowledge of the libzypp API is useful to help with the code. - Unfortunately, there is no one actively working on this backend, and the current code is suboptimal/buggy in various places, it seems. But bug fixes are going in every now and then. - I've seen in a bug comment that a rewrite is planned. - Bugs like "this package should not have been installed during an update" usually come from the zypp backend. And then we have libzypp. I don't know much about it, except that there the lock I've mentioned above. Does this help a bit? Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:10:39 +0200 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

Thanks a lot - but I think Rajko was thinking of an easily findable web page :-)

Rajko will put that on the wiki and then ask for more help. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/22/2012 08:26 AM, Vincent Untz wrote:

Does this help a bit?

it helps _me_ understand the _system_ better...and, i thank you for presenting it in a way i can understand.. i am trying to understand the developers views here so i can bridge/translate it into something usable to help a person who last week got fed up with some other operating system (both proprietary and open)....and after a few days of shocking bliss and amazement on how really stunning openSUSE is, they can no longer boot (or worse)...and, they boot to windows to write for help.. however good your overview is in helping me understand the beginning-to-end-system, it doesn't really help me answer the new user questions [usually after hours to days of Q&As to get them booting again] on why does openSUSE include known buggy package management bits in their 'stable' release... i guess i could now write: the part of the package management system in KDE/Gnome/XFCE which allows it to mesh with openSUSE's native package system is the "zypp backend", but "there is no one actively working on this backend, and the current code is suboptimal/buggy in various places, it seems. But bug fixes are going in every now and then. I've seen in a bug comment that a rewrite is planned." but, then that really does not answer the "Why include it while still broken?" question. or maybe i missed a better answer? (Wait for 12.3.--is not an option to someone who just trashed their system without really trying).. and it still leaves 'best' recommendation while waiting for the zypp backend to be fixed as disable it [using your 3 how-tos, thank you] and run YOU often. still, this is progress! thanks again. dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/8/20 Sven Burmeister :

Am Montag, 20. August 2012, 07:55:44 schrieb DenverD:

...

but the problem i'm talking about that not many new in from Windows will attempt to update/install with zypper (at least until they learn what a "terminal" is) but they will sure find many dozens of "1-Click Intall" buttons which by default leave a _wide_ variety of repos enabled (which the usual new user will happily leave enabled--hey its FREE, so it must be good to have more and more)....and then apper pops up list of upgraded software (NOT just from the update repo) and the new users automatically (seems like--since they are conditioned by their previous OS) give the go-ahead allowing the pop-up to make their decisions and just load up conflicting software and kill their system..

I think this shows quite nicely why improving the situation is not that easy. People confuse and mix-up names, apps, GUIs and use cases etc.

Apper (the KDE app) does not show the user a list of possible choices including to ignore dependencies. YaST and zypper do. -> apper devs do not feel addressed.

Apper does show all updates that do not need a vendor change. The reason for that is a back-end setting. Apper does as it is told, i.e. something like zypper up instead of zypper patch. -> apper devs do not feel addressed. everybody else points to the decision taken and the pros and cons.

The term "apper" being used for everything randomly related to packagkit -> no dev feels addressed, since nobody knows which piece of software the issue does actually relate to.

People try to kill packakitd but do not disable the service that calls it and wonder why it always respawns. -> no dev feels addressed because it is possible to simply disable the service.

Hi, I think the most people complain in this particular case is this bug: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=731450 (zypper: can't kill packagekit) Solving this, everyone will be happy ;-) Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-20 20:20, DenverD wrote:

On 08/20/2012 05:34 PM, Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

and when told to disable packagekit/apper they ask: Why was it included?

Just found a new problem in the applet. I used "gpk-prefs" to tell it to only check the update-repo and ignore the rest. The problem is that the repos got disabled in YaST as well! And that is not what I desired. I will have no resource but disable the applet completely, it is useless that way to me. Dunno if 12.2 does the same. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlA178cACgkQIvFNjefEBxr9kwCgiKGRVM7sm2E1CgWHfJtmrXeU oQYAmQFlKa2MviQMiKV6f3CWJvViXwTy =jk1p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org