Luca Beltrame composed on 2017-10-16 06:54 (UTC+0200):

15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400 Felix Miata composed:

...

Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?

The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this needs to be done upstream (very hard to).

Very hard to do? Very hard too? In any event, I get that as the creator of this problem, upstream is the right place to fix, but that doesn't make it right for users to suffer poor usability or accessibility on account of an application's choice of toolkit. Persuading upstream ought to be easier to do if more distros were onboard with the need. Getting more distros onboard ought to be easier if the message from https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 were stronger by including all current openSUSE releases instead of a subset. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about, don't get false hopes. You may have a similar feature better implemented upstream once fractional scaling will be done, scaling not just the fonts or the cursor but the whole desktop. Cheers, Adrien Plazas Le mar. 17 oct. 2017 à 9:36, Richard Brown a écrit :

Felix,

Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community where they belong.

The openSUSE GNOME team have decided that they will not carry this patch in Tumbleweed.

That decision is final

Richard Brown openSUSE GNOME Team

On 17 October 2017 at 08:02, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Luca Beltrame composed on 2017-10-16 06:54 (UTC+0200):

...

15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400 Felix Miata composed:

...

...

Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?

...

The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this needs to be done upstream (very hard to).

Very hard to do?

Very hard too?

In any event, I get that as the creator of this problem, upstream is the right place to fix, but that doesn't make it right for users to suffer poor usability or accessibility on account of an application's choice of toolkit. Persuading upstream ought to be easier to do if more distros were onboard with the need. Getting more distros onboard ought to be easier if the message from https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 were stronger by including all current openSUSE releases instead of a subset. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 17.10.2017 13:42, Felix Miata wrote:

Richard Brown composed on 2017-10-17 09:36 (UTC+0200):

...

Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community where they belong.

1-I tried that, and had no luck figuring out where any such discussion has taken place. All I found is the disdainful (Clasen/RedHat) attitude in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 comment 3 whose foundation is laid upon a much older (RedHat originated) usurpation of sensible behavior, that is, not employing the server's automatic display density calculation (not letting the computer do the computing), which would obviate need for need for manual override in the first place: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705 "xserver forces 96 DPI on randr-1.2-capable drivers, overriding correct autodetection" https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115 "Please add option to avoid forcing of 96dpi"

2-I'm not part of the Gnome community and don't expect ever will be. Gnome is what turned me off of Linux on first exposure to it two decades ago. It took KDE through Mandrake and later SUSE to overcome that poor taste. I use Mozilla (and thus the thorn that is GTK) only due to absence of alternatives. What standing would I have to be heard there?

This isn't just about Gnome. It's about surreptitious forcing, absent explicit specification, of 96 DPI in Xorg, of which Xft.dpi (about which bug 757142) is only one method. 96 DPI is an anti-usability, anti-accessibility travesty upon those with poorer than average vision, the underlying reason for my interest in the subject bug.

Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe we should rely on user repoes for that. Does anyone already keep branch-forks on OBS for Xorg and GTK3 with these DPI patches ? I'm too lazy to do it for myself and don't have necessity yet but would switch to them without a second thought. Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs with my fixes anyway. And there are seem to be some alternatives rising with their analogues to OBS. And from countries that don't recognize software patenting to that. Their updates are slower and community is smaller, thought. Yet. It seems that public build farm that gives us the ability to selectively defy anti-user behaviour like this is the last and only thing that's going for openSUSE these days.

On 18.10.2017 10:25, Luca Beltrame wrote:

Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500 Sergey Kondakov ha scritto:

...

Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe

It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement, not by corporate overlords.

Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks ! Especially if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and general removal of decades-old functionality. How long before filesystem tree structure is deemed "obsolete", like it's Android or year 1967 ? Graphical interface always was an afterthought in FOSS since it's not part of clusters and supercomputers but software vendors for these do try to sell "workstation" licenses and support contracts. And these "workstations" use Gnome as officially supported DE. But that kind of "support" is beyond ridiculous at this point, it's cluelessly irresponsible. Things like that is why people shell out the big bucks to pay for Apple products. It's not even an issue of money or manpower.

...

Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs

If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live installer, and it's even being tested.

Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live kiwi-built images ? Because what I see is https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/404819

Sergey Kondakov composed on 2017-10-18 13:13 (UTC+0500):

...if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and general removal of decades-old functionality.... IMO blame for the immediate problem does not belong with Packard, but with the creator of the patch that created the problem, RedHat's Matthias Clasen, with RedHat's backing, as RedHat is pushing for the replacement of Xorg with Wayland. Foundational IMO blame does ultimately belong to Packard, back around 2008 or 9 (who originally created the Xorg fork of XFree86; while working for Intel; leading to bug 23705), for disallowing application of Xorg's computation of display density, absent willful override, from being applied automatically (not letting the computer do the computing).

IMO, Clasen's patch: 1-constitutes covert inducement to get more people to sooner make a switch to Fedora/RedHat/Wayland/Gnome. 2-intentionally defeats patches attached to https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115 I suspect that this was transparent to our Gnome team, and at least part of the reason(s) why all Leap users using >96 DPI displays are lucky enough to have GTK3 apps able to respect users' font settings without additional manual reconfiguration whenever a display is installed or changed. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dear Christian, As one of these voluntary contributors to the openSUSE GNOME desktop*, I am __personally__ offended by the email quoted below, and furthermore by the board's tolerance of such toxic insult, by essentially rewarding virulence** with a slap-of-the-wrist "consider yourself warned" message. Let's just summarise what the email alleges about me, given that I am part of the GNOME team: * I want to be an asshole to the whole userbase, * So-called "maintainer" who sits with thumb up someone else's arse, and * A useless prick. In response, you "warned" him. Yeah, much good that will do!!! If every single one of us gets one chance to spit such insult on someone else on this ML, I am pretty sure you know how that will turn out. While I understand differences in opinion can drive conflict which can sometimes straddle the boundary of civil and not-so-civil, this kind of abuse is not something anyone, let alone the board of a respectable community organisation, ought to tolerate. Even. Once. Please consider this my official complaint against this particular individual, and against this policy of warn once no-matter-how-bad. * I also voluntarily devote my not-all-that-much free time toward the maintenance of several packages in the science and Education projects. ** No, I won't just accept and move on, in case you are wondering. Nobody told me I had to first build the skin of a rhino to contribute to an opensource community project. *** In case you received my email twice, apologies! My previous message didn't get through to the list, as far as I can see. -- Atri B (irc nick: badshah400) On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 14:30 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:

Hi Sergey,

Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017, 10:13:51 CEST schrieb Sergey Kondakov:

...

Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks !

Please adjust your tone!

Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to fulfil your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way is the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an official warning from the Board!)

Please also take a few minutes to read https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.

Regards,

Christian Boltz -- <sarnold> the old "which is worse, X or Y?" game :) <mancha> which is worse, the which is worse game or recursion jokes?

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

19.10.2017 00:01, Christopher Myers пишет:

It deeply saddens me how terribly human beings treat each other.

Christian, you very much owe an apology to the folks you just lambasted. There is absolutely no excuse for someone to act the way that you did,

Sorry? Christian was wrong in telling someone to behave properly?!? What should he apologize for?

especially over something that, in the grand scheme of life, matters so very very little.

Atri, while I don't use Gnome, I very much appreciate the (often thankless) effort that you and the other maintainers put in on our behalf.

On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 21:35 +0200, badshah400@gmail.com wrote:

...

Dear Christian,

...

As one of these voluntary contributors to the openSUSE GNOME desktop*, I am __personally__ offended by the email quoted below, and furthermore by the board's tolerance of such toxic insult, by essentially rewarding virulence** with a slap-of-the-wrist "consider yourself warned" message.

...

Let's just summarise what the email alleges about me, given that I am part of the GNOME team: * I want to be an asshole to the whole userbase, * So-called "maintainer" who sits with thumb up someone else's arse, and * A useless prick.

...

In response, you "warned" him. Yeah, much good that will do!!! If every single one of us gets one chance to spit such insult on someone else on this ML, I am pretty sure you know how that will turn out. While I understand differences in opinion can drive conflict which can sometimes straddle the boundary of civil and not-so-civil, this kind of abuse is not something anyone, let alone the board of a respectable community organisation, ought to tolerate. Even. Once.

...

Please consider this my official complaint against this particular individual, and against this policy of warn once no-matter-how-bad.

...

* I also voluntarily devote my not-all-that-much free time toward the maintenance of several packages in the science and Education projects. ** No, I won't just accept and move on, in case you are wondering. Nobody told me I had to first build the skin of a rhino to contribute to an opensource community project. *** In case you received my email twice, apologies! My previous message didn't get through to the list, as far as I can see. -- Atri B (irc nick: badshah400)

...

On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 14:30 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Hi Sergey,

Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017, 10:13:51 CEST schrieb Sergey Kondakov:

...

Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks !

Please adjust your tone!

Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to fulfil your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way is the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an official warning from the Board!)

Please also take a few minutes to read https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.

Regards,

Christian Boltz -- <sarnold> the old "which is worse, X or Y?" game :) <mancha> which is worse, the which is worse game or recursion jokes?

N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩrg==

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 I'm sorry, I did lose track of the who-said-what in the quoting and layers of caret's :/ On Thu, 2017-10-19 at 09:29 +0200, J. F. Lemaire wrote:

On 19 October 2017 at 05:31, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

19.10.2017 00:01, Christopher Myers пишет:

...

Christian, you very much owe an apology to the folks you just lambasted. There is absolutely no excuse for someone to act the way that you did,

Sorry? Christian was wrong in telling someone to behave properly?!? What should he apologize for?

Indeed, something seems to have been lost in the quotation. Christian's response was quite polite.

Cheers, JFL -- Jean-François Lemaire

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE7GM/Dul8WSWn72odQ1nEo4DFCIUFAlnompQACgkQQ1nEo4DF CIUcqAf9Hl+2X9tFu4uY5uw4WXK7M+5BsZntZnv15tsQ4gQKiW8IlhPVs9DWZfnO OsPERETxu10bjQh9I8vKEctj3aBzphkzfOQ2SJwQKBsAe9HAurkNp3XFRirvHCRz aPlgkPQiTM3+4nggYW8x0F8Bw3w7e4VAJVO96pW5+e5umoKvzSwG1iiABNv/TlBc IKbjvuSN0Kj7EWTSloHoL3vuUBw7/bYT03uaYKIQbvuhiN3Ktcxb6ihOE69ZA2bC QgczE8ucphOzpbscl8IDwDlj2W2kMUSCBsttvSA3AH2yTwVhh+jlAp1oEm00Yd3x /BqPT5WGVdI398O7qerLwc2SffSoZQ== =WLzt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Am Donnerstag, 19. Oktober 2017, 09:13:30 CEST schrieb martin@pluskal.org:

On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 21:01 +0000, Christopher Myers wrote:

...

It deeply saddens me how terribly human beings treat each other.

Christian, you very much owe an apology to the folks you just lambasted. There is absolutely no excuse for someone to act the way that you did, especially over something that, in the grand scheme of life, matters so very very little.

I beg your pardon? Christian was trying to calm situation down, if someone should apologize it should be Sergey Kondakov who made outrageous insults.

That being said I would like to express my gratitude to all Gnome mainters in openSUSE - thanks a lot for doing great job!

Cheers

Martin

100% agree, and I don't even use GNOME. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Senior Systems Engineer, IT Consultant. IT Trainer Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org http://www.tuxonline.tech gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102

Dear Atri, I can clearly understand you feel hurt, there are enough statements in Sergeys e-mail to be offended. The board, in person Christian, did stand up against the accusations, and this time they did in a timely manner, while in the past they were somewhat reluctant to do so, and I appreciate they did now. The accusations and name calling are in no way acceptable, and the board clealy does not tolerate it. If a warning is sufficient or not is a matter of opinion, Sergey is a first time offender, so personally I am strictly pro letting it pass this time, hoping he would think twice the next time he criticizes some decision. Yes, I hope the warning will do some good. Maintainership or even contribution is no popularity contest. I myself have doubted the sanity of maintainers sometimes in the past, thinking "how dare you" when killing my favourite pet feature. I have stood up for maintainer decisions when I saw the overall benefit for some unpopular change. I know both sides. As a community, we are striving to improve open source in general and openSUSE in particular. Although we share this goal we are all individuals, with different opionions how this vision looks like in detail. But over all disagreements, there is no tolerance for uncivility, offense or violence. I think the board showed it shares this view, I hopefully did myself with this letter, and I think everyone else should do as well*. Kind regards, Stefan * in most cases, I am strictly against "me too" statements - but there are occasion where keeping quiet is not the best thing you can do. -- Stefan Brüns / Bergstraße 21 / 52062 Aachen home: +49 241 53809034 mobile: +49 151 50412019 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Can we please try to resolve these issues amongst the people involved first, *before* spilling this drama out onto public mailing lists? It would make it a lot easier if people were given a chance to explain themselves first, without the risk of being misunderstood by others. If the issue still cannot be resolved in any particularly constructive manner, *then* it would make sense to open up the discussion to further input. -- - Karl Cheng (Qantas94Heavy) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 18 oktober 2017 10:13:51 CEST schreef Sergey Kondakov:

On 18.10.2017 10:25, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500

Sergey Kondakov ha scritto:

...

Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe

It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement, not by corporate overlords.

Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks ! Especially if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and general removal of decades-old functionality. How long before filesystem tree structure is deemed "obsolete", like it's Android or year 1967 ?

Graphical interface always was an afterthought in FOSS since it's not part of clusters and supercomputers but software vendors for these do try to sell "workstation" licenses and support contracts. And these "workstations" use Gnome as officially supported DE. But that kind of "support" is beyond ridiculous at this point, it's cluelessly irresponsible. Things like that is why people shell out the big bucks to pay for Apple products. It's not even an issue of money or manpower.

...

...

Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs

If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live installer, and it's even being tested.

Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live kiwi-built images ? Because what I see is https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/404819

FYI : You've crossed every line of what is acceptable in this community. I for one will not tolerate people being talked to like this. You should be ashamed of yourself going this far below the belt in implicite personal attacks. Intolerable is the word. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/10/2017 03:44, Sergey Kondakov wrote:

On 18.10.2017 17:30, Christian Boltz wrote:

...

Please adjust your tone!

Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to fulfil your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way is the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an official warning from the Board!)

Please also take a few minutes to read https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.

Regards,

Christian Boltz

Indeed, it will not. But I gave up on that long ago. Thanks to the "final decision to keep breaking and not fixing"-approach. What's the point of it anyway if nothing productive can be discussed ? I could try to almost civilly ask "WHY WOULD YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT ?!!! You can't not understand that it's senseless, horrible and anti-productive, RIGHT ?!" in such occasions but I'm not sure that rational explanations are possible.

On 19.10.2017 02:05, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Op woensdag 18 oktober 2017 10:13:51 CEST schreef Sergey Kondakov:

...

On 18.10.2017 10:25, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500

Sergey Kondakov ha scritto:

...

Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe

It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement, not by corporate overlords.

Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks ! Especially if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and general removal of decades-old functionality. How long before filesystem tree structure is deemed "obsolete", like it's Android or year 1967 ?

Graphical interface always was an afterthought in FOSS since it's not part of clusters and supercomputers but software vendors for these do try to sell "workstation" licenses and support contracts. And these "workstations" use Gnome as officially supported DE. But that kind of "support" is beyond ridiculous at this point, it's cluelessly irresponsible. Things like that is why people shell out the big bucks to pay for Apple products. It's not even an issue of money or manpower.

...

...

Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs

If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live installer, and it's even being tested.

Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live kiwi-built images ? Because what I see is https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/404819

FYI : You've crossed every line of what is acceptable in this community. I for one will not tolerate people being talked to like this. You should be ashamed of yourself going this far below the belt in implicite personal attacks. Intolerable is the word.

It seems what is acceptable in "this community" is constantly breaking the distro. Intentionally, more often than not. And I do have zero tolerance watching how core packages just silently disappear from TW or fixes provided on the silver plater get ignored because bureaucrats responsible don't feel like it or something. What's the point of "this community" if every user is left for himself anyway ? Unless you're mean "the community" of some CircleJerk Club. Well, I'm not going to be a part of that community.

Just recently I had 3 XFS partitions with 4,5Tb of data nuked (luckily, the important half was accessible in R/O) after an emergency shutdown. And wasn't even surprised to find that official TW xfsprogs package is 6 months and 4 full releases late. And that's for official default data filesystem ! There several user packages for newest versions but no one seems to want to deal with "implicitly personally attacked". And so am I. Every day there is something deliberately disdainful in "this community" with it's "final decisions" to not give a damn. Remember previous Super Prick Move of deliberate redirection of all OBS user TW repoes to be built against inaccessible snapshots which were making them unsuitable for usage as replacements or additions to official packages ? I surely will not forget. I've forked a ton of stuff, even kernel (as a replacement to abandoned kernel-desktop flavour), but now I would have to fork xserver and gtk3, it seems, or find someone who did... And figure out why lightdm decided to commit seppuku together with X while on open drivers and what's up with sddm's pam errors or what to replace them with but that's other matter entirely. But GTK3&Gnome3/KDE4&5 upstream are the worst of the worst. For last ~5 years it's looks like they on the mission to squash everything that was good about FOSS DEs.

If only "the teams" of "this community" would spend as much energy on actually maintaining their stuff or helping those who do it for them as they spend on being "non-toxic", "inoffensive" breakage-compliant boys, maybe there wouldn't be reasons to be offended. So, save your preachings for those who value empty words. I'm interested in deeds. And here I see absolute disdain for those who come up with solutions by those who supposed to encourage them instead of choking initiative.

On 19.10.2017 00:35, badshah400@gmail.com wrote:

...

Dear Christian,

As one of these voluntary contributors to the openSUSE GNOME desktop*, I am __personally__ offended by the email quoted below, and furthermore by the board's tolerance of such toxic insult, by essentially rewarding virulence** with a slap-of-the-wrist "consider yourself warned" message.

Let's just summarise what the email alleges about me, given that I am part of the GNOME team: * I want to be an asshole to the whole userbase, * So-called "maintainer" who sits with thumb up someone else's arse, and * A useless prick.

In response, you "warned" him. Yeah, much good that will do!!! If every single one of us gets one chance to spit such insult on someone else on this ML, I am pretty sure you know how that will turn out. While I understand differences in opinion can drive conflict which can sometimes straddle the boundary of civil and not-so-civil, this kind of abuse is not something anyone, let alone the board of a respectable community organisation, ought to tolerate. Even. Once.

Please consider this my official complaint against this particular individual, and against this policy of warn once no-matter-how-bad.

* I also voluntarily devote my not-all-that-much free time toward the maintenance of several packages in the science and Education projects. ** No, I won't just accept and move on, in case you are wondering. Nobody told me I had to first build the skin of a rhino to contribute to an opensource community project. *** In case you received my email twice, apologies! My previous message didn't get through to the list, as far as I can see. -- Atri B (irc nick: badshah400)

And I'm personally offended by your attitude ! Not only you neglect doing your duties but also spit on those who may do so for you. And this is directly encouraged by the top brass. The only way it could be worse if it was an issue of data/hardware corruption or physical trauma. Although, wrong DPI can very likely lead to the latter for one's eyes. Are you sure you're not GNOME/GTK project leader or X.Org board member ?

The being-an-asshole part is more about Richard Brown's "final decision", unless it was your decision and you honestly think that users need to go complain to unhinged upstream though garbled up screens you forced them to look through while you can't even be bothered to take fixes that were prepared for you. Unwillingness to do so does make you pretty useless and insistence on keeping things broken by blocking fixes from others makes you a prick. And the thumbs part is about what you're doing now: seeking approval and enforcement from higher ups and advocates of such behaviour. Or as it's called: echo chamber, preaching to the choir or a "circle jerk", metaphorical thumbs included.

But what "the board" supposed to do ? Send assassins ? Blocking emails is useless since most of the time it's too uninteresting to bother or I'm so pissed off from things likes this that I can't even write coherently at all. At max they could delete my OBS account and ban my email from all servers. But that only be doing me a favour, otherwise I can't yet bring myself to do migration for all my packages and changes to something else.

- If you're such a gentleman maybe you should assign yourself as your own upstream negotiator ? But we all understand that saying "talk to upstream" about broken-by-design issue from a maintainer to a user is nothing more than a pseudo-polite euphemism for "talk to a wall, bitch, because we're not feeling like doing a jack shit about it and neither will you". If that's how a "non-toxic" community behaviour looks like to you, then you should be first ones in line to get some.

And when instead of making or taking changes you prevent others for no good reason, you're cease being a "contributor" altogether and start being an obstacle. Then if you go one step further and start introducing deliberate breakage, you become something else entirely, also starting from a letter "c".

So, stop playing the offended, you're not the only, the first or even an innocent one. Being "implicit" "toxic" pricks seems to be a norm around here, even of it's done via non-swearing words. Doing nothing while patting each other's backs and standing in the way. There is close to zero point in dealing with "teams" of anti-contributing "contributors". Maybe an occasional maintainer who actually does his job could be an exception. And you're going to do nothing about the issue of DPI. Because this is who you are and that is what you do. And if you want to spit insults but refrain only due to fear of some reprimand, maybe it would be better for everyone if you would do so instead of hiding behind feint politeness while channelling hatred some other, more destructive way. But, whatever.

PS: Talking to you is a waste of time and temper anyway, so I'm not going to even read this list any longer. The only thing it does is trigger the rage of dumbfoundedness. With uncertainty of openSUSE's aptitude under another shift in ownership and with these crippling afflictions for the base system growing in numbers and levels of ridiculousness under such management and what passes of as "maintenance", it may be better to abandon it altogether...

The solution is for you to create your own linux distribution where everything can be just as you want it and take your insults to our community maintainers away. This is a support list and as an openSUSE member I vote for you to be blacklisted on this list. Dave Plater N�����r��y隊Z)z{.���r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.���r�+��0�����Ǩ�