[opensuse-factory] [suggestion] YaST-update should NOT refresh all installation-sources when called by opensuse-updater
Hello, I think it would spare many users a lot of annoyance if updates went a little more quickly and silently. I can just about understand that any time I want to install a package, YaST refreshed all installation-sources (though this is also debateable - wouldn't one update a day suffice?); but if the opensuse-updater (or zen-udpater) has recently reported an updateable package, why does YaST have to check the installation-source again? It certainly doesn't need to check _all_ installation sources IMHO. This is a real waste of time. See also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=266864. Thanks. Chris --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 4/21/07, Christian Jäger
Hello,
I think it would spare many users a lot of annoyance if updates went a little more quickly and silently. I can just about understand that any time I want to install a package, YaST refreshed all installation-sources (though this is also debateable - wouldn't one update a day suffice?); but if the opensuse-updater (or zen-udpater) has recently reported an updateable package, why does YaST have to check the installation-source again? It certainly doesn't need to check _all_ installation sources IMHO. This is a real waste of time.
What if other vendors add patch-priority packages into their repository, eg for security updates? We shouldn't discriminate against them. _ Benjamin Weber --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Den Saturday 21 April 2007 19:35:36 skrev Christian Jäger:
I think it would spare many users a lot of annoyance if updates went a little more quickly and silently. I can just about understand that any time I want to install a package, YaST refreshed all installation-sources (though this is also debateable - wouldn't one update a day suffice?); but if the opensuse-updater (or zen-udpater) has recently reported an updateable package, why does YaST have to check the installation-source again? It certainly doesn't need to check _all_ installation sources IMHO. This is a real waste of time.
See also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=266864.
I agree with your general point. But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops. What's taking so long is parsing the metadata. If you disable auto-refresh for your sources it would still take quite a long time because it would still need to parse it all. This is being addressed for 10.3 by adding a binary cache that means metadata will only be parsed once, and not on every start of the package manager. I think the work being done on the parsing-part is sufficient to solve the base problem - very slow YOU startup. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 05:38:30 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops.
Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops". Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 05:38:30 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops.
Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops".
Volker
Well, Herr Kuhlmann, have you ever considered that the average dialup user
wouldn't be stupid enough to try applying remote updates over his link?
Unless he was incredibly desperate not to have his Apache server hacked XD
Almost ALL computers these days have a broadband connection of some form.
Yes, I'm not proud that I used a 33.6k modem up until January 19 2006, but
one of the first things i did on my broadband link was download a new
distro (i'd been using Fedora Core 4, and as you can imagine it
traumatised me for life.) - There's just NO excuse to use a dial-in
narrowband data link for anything more than ssh these days. Cheap and
plentiful data pipes are available in every developed country of the world
- EMBRACE THEM! :D
by the by, 13MB on my cable modem? it's demolished in one minute.
--
/"Horst Günther Burkhardt III"-------------------\
| There's no place like localhost (127.0.0.1) |
| http://peanuthorst.livejournal.com/ <- blog |
\-----------------------------
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 11:16:12AM +1000, Horst G?nther Burkhardt III wrote:
Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops".
Well, Herr Kuhlmann, have you ever considered that the average dialup user wouldn't be stupid enough to try applying remote updates over his link? Unless he was incredibly desperate not to have his Apache server hacked XD
Almost ALL computers these days have a broadband connection of some form. Yes, I'm not proud that I used a 33.6k modem up until January 19 2006, but one of the first things i did on my broadband link was download a new distro (i'd been using Fedora Core 4, and as you can imagine it traumatised me for life.) - There's just NO excuse to use a dial-in narrowband data link for anything more than ssh these days. Cheap and plentiful data pipes are available in every developed country of the world - EMBRACE THEM! :D
by the by, 13MB on my cable modem? it's demolished in one minute.
Hmm, apart from being rather arrogant this answer is also excessivly
ingorant of security matters because, what is says boils down to
"if you are sitting behind a small bandwidth connection (GPRS, modem,
ISDN, UMTS) it's OK to connect to the internet but don't download
(security) patches."
It also fails to take into account users that have to pay for the volume
that they use. While it may well be worthwile to download (and pay for
the volume) the delta-rpms to have a properly secured Suse the question
is: Why should I pay multiple times that volume just to know that my
system needs/doesn't need patches. I think it is good practice to check
for patches once per day and when comparing the download volume to the
checking overhead, the current situation looks bad.
In my case, I have a limit of 100 MB per month, after that the megabytes
become rather expensive. If I'm on business trips for two weeks, then
I'll use up almost all of that volume just to do the checks for updates.
Not a very nice solution.
ciao
Joerg
--
Joerg Mayer
Well, Herr Kuhlmann, have you ever considered that the average dialup user wouldn't be stupid enough to try applying remote updates over his link? Unless he was incredibly desperate not to have his Apache server hacked XD
Almost ALL computers these days have a broadband connection of some form.
Really? In which world are you living?
Yes, I'm not proud that I used a 33.6k modem up until January 19 2006, but one of the first things i did on my broadband link was download a new distro (i'd been using Fedora Core 4, and as you can imagine it traumatised me for life.) - There's just NO excuse to use a dial-in narrowband data link for anything more than ssh these days. Cheap and plentiful data pipes are available in every developed country of the world
Welcome to the real world, where not all users are from the so-called developed countries and where not all internet access are broadband. Regards, Gaël
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 12:06:54PM +1200, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 05:38:30 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops.
Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops".
Its more like 5 MB. others.xml.gz is not downloaded usually. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Den Sunday 22 April 2007 09:59:47 skrev Marcus Meissner:
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 12:06:54PM +1200, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 05:38:30 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops.
Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops".
Its more like 5 MB. others.xml.gz is not downloaded usually.
Also the update source is not relevant here is it? When opensuseupdater tells you that updates are available the update repo has already been refreshed hasn't it? So it won't need to download new metadata again at YOU startup. The "problem" is the other repos that most people add, Packman and Guru etc. - and this is an even smaller download from what I can tell. But of course any download on dialup is big. I wonder how many people do Windows-update or apt-get upgrade on dialup for comparison. I think for most users parsing metadata takes way longer than downloading updated metadata. At least for me parsing metadata is perhaps 80% of package manager startup time. I do have comparatively high bandwidth I guess (2 mbit), but it's not like I'm on 100 mbit. And I also have an above average machine I guess, and still parsing takes sooo long. Maybe it would still make sense to not update all repos at YOU startup if that would be safe. But I still think many people confuse the metadata-parsing with repo-updating. And I maintain that parsing is the biggest culprit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 20:28:37 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Also the update source is not relevant here is it? When opensuseupdater tells you that updates are available the update repo has already been refreshed hasn't it? So it won't need to download new metadata again at YOU startup.
Fine for an always-on connection where the refresh happens in the background. Not so fine for dialup because there is no "background", the user will be sitting in front of the box waiting for something to happen. What I mainly object to is the repeated downloading of 98% of old metadata and only 2% of new, because everything is packed up in the same binary file. A more intelligent design would be 50 times faster... I think any design should still work for dialup too, though I'm not worried about a Linux supply shortage for people in less well-off areas - ubuntu will be picking those up... ;) I don't disagree with parsing being way too slow. Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.dnsalias.net/ Please do not CC list postings to me. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hello, on Sonntag, 22. April 2007, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 20:28:37 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Also the update source is not relevant here is it? When opensuseupdater tells you that updates are available the update repo has already been refreshed hasn't it? So it won't need to download new metadata again at YOU startup.
Indeed.
What I mainly object to is the repeated downloading of 98% of old metadata and only 2% of new, because everything is packed up in the same binary file. A more intelligent design would be 50 times faster...
What about using zsync? I never used it myself, but what I read on http://zsync.moria.org.uk/ looks very promising :-) BTW: Volker, could you please provide some info in bug 188068? (Your patch breaks pin in another way...) Regards, Christian Boltz -- Wir sind vom LinuxTag e.V., Widerstand ist zwecklos. Sie werden assimiliert. [Henning Heinold - LinuxTag fortune] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Christian Boltz
What about using zsync? I never used it myself, but what I read on http://zsync.moria.org.uk/ looks very promising :-)
We are looking into zsync for openSuSE 10.3 Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schlander schreef:
Den Sunday 22 April 2007 09:59:47 skrev Marcus Meissner:
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 12:06:54PM +1200, Volker Kuhlmann wrote:
On Sun 22 Apr 2007 05:38:30 NZST +1200, Martin Schlander wrote:
But the problem is not the downloading of updated metadata, which usually takes a few seconds tops. Uhhm, you're talking about downloading the updates/repodata/*.xml.gz files? For the 10.2 updates that's about 13MB currently. I'd be very interested to hear how you download that over a dialup at a realistic 3kbyte/s in "a few seconds tops". Its more like 5 MB. others.xml.gz is not downloaded usually.
Also the update source is not relevant here is it? When opensuseupdater tells you that updates are available the update repo has already been refreshed hasn't it? So it won't need to download new metadata again at YOU startup.
The "problem" is the other repos that most people add, Packman and Guru etc. - and this is an even smaller download from what I can tell.
But of course any download on dialup is big. I wonder how many people do Windows-update or apt-get upgrade on dialup for comparison.
I think for most users parsing metadata takes way longer than downloading updated metadata. At least for me parsing metadata is perhaps 80% of package manager startup time. I do have comparatively high bandwidth I guess (2 mbit), but it's not like I'm on 100 mbit. And I also have an above average machine I guess, and still parsing takes sooo long.
Maybe it would still make sense to not update all repos at YOU startup if that would be safe. But I still think many people confuse the metadata-parsing with repo-updating. And I maintain that parsing is the biggest culprit.
I support this, and i notice that the cpu consumption is enormous on start, and on and after finishing, i am forced to stop working, because the reaction-speed for my keybord has reduced to -20 secs. ( i mean that a keystroke is visible after 20 secs.) I mean i would realy don't care, if i would not notice any of the update/grades, but they are dominant, and force me to stop working, which is, at least to me, very disturbing... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-01-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGK25cX5/X5X6LpDgRApieAKDEF3WeS5/bj7dtOSLPlu4OPsyvqACgriSJ 7vrfY6kvnYU65zMM0sJdUy0= =Yw5C -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 21 April 2007 12:35, Christian Jäger wrote:
It certainly doesn't need to check _all_ installation sources IMHO. This is a real waste of time.
See also https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=266864.
For technical part you already have answers. IMHO, the feeling about update speed is, in a part, problem for people used to limitations and different approach in another OS. There is no need to have dedicated time for updates. Linux has multiple virtual desktops that make possible to cleanup work area in a click. While you work on one desktop, let YOU run on another. After few minutes (or if you forget - few hours) visit YOU and let it download updates, back to your work and when update is done, go and let YOU finish installation. Whether you look what YOU is doing all the time, every few minutes or after few hours, it is not important. YOU (online updater) will not time out and most of the time with right setup and consideration that servers with update repositories need periodic maintenance, it will not need supervision. The actual user time involvement is minimal. Few seconds pro update to read what is that about, and that is all. The most important improvement is within ourselves. We have to forget windows habits: 1- Expecting questions, as each application there has it's own installation and update style with usually some questions asked. YOU needs your decision first what updates to run, and one more time later it will wait for you to see what was done and your approval to run SuSEconfig. 2- Waiting on request for reboot. In Linux it is necessary only on kernel updates. Why I wrote this? Because even today I catch myself looking in YOU window process of the software database checkup. I know that it is not necessary, but old habit still pops up, on occasions. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
IMHO, the feeling about update speed is, in a part, problem for people used to limitations and different approach in another OS.
In my opinion the update speed is not unimportant. It's true you don't have to look at it and work while YaST is updating your system. But having a slow update system like the one we have at the moment makes clever solutions like delta-rpms useless. Btw, the installer takes exactly the same time to parse data when installing patches or new software, and if I need a new app to do my work, the "put on another desktop" technique doesn't apply. Moreover, I think the speed of the package manager in elaborating patches information should be negligible in comparison with the patches download time. This often (almost always?) doesn't happen with the current implementation. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 April 2007 07:09, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
IMHO, the feeling about update speed is, in a part, problem for people used to limitations and different approach in another OS.
In my opinion the update speed is not unimportant. It's true you don't have to look at it and work while YaST is updating your system. But having a slow update system like the one we have at the moment makes clever solutions like delta-rpms useless.
Btw, the installer takes exactly the same time to parse data when installing patches or new software, and if I need a new app to do my work, the "put on another desktop" technique doesn't apply.
Moreover, I think the speed of the package manager in elaborating patches information should be negligible in comparison with the patches download time. This often (almost always?) doesn't happen with the current implementation.
Regards,
Hi Alberto, the point was that a part of the problem are our habits. They make whole situtation worse, and new users that are not used to Linux are hit the most. The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed. For example with my current Internet connection on this computer it is faster to download full size iso than download delta iso and run applydeltaiso combination. Download takes 20-30 minutes per CD and totals in 3 hours. The other option takes lesser to download, but than applydeltaiso runs for approximately one hour per CD. I use slower disk for download archive and that makes situation worse, but applydeltaiso process runs quite nice in background and I use Internet without problems. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed.
In my opinion the evaluation of how the update system work should be independent from users' habits. We can't think to change their habits, it's a fight lost before it starts. It's easier to change the software, or the user will change it ;-) Of course I did my reasoning thinking to a user who works always on the same machine and with the same connection. That user would notice a huge increase of the update/install time in more recent versions of suse than in past ones (9.3, 10.0), without any advantage for him. The download time is related to the connection speed, and the user is accustomed to his connection, so he will accept a long download time if he has a slow connection. On the contrary he will not accept a long parsing time, because it wasn't there before, it's not there in other distributions and in other operating systems. When developing a new software, the key point is to think as the user thinks, and not to try to find excuses to justify problems, or workarounds to make users accept the status quo. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 22 April 2007 08:11, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed.
In my opinion the evaluation of how the update system work should be independent from users' habits. We can't think to change their habits, it's a fight lost before it starts. It's easier to change the software, or the user will change it ;-)
:-) User experience is master. You know by your self when you are in user role. Habits ... they are part of problem and part of solution. I agree that changing habits is harder task than to rewrite software, but when you know that some solution is more comfortable and productive, than it is time to take on harder to solve part of equation, and that is what my post was about.
Of course I did my reasoning thinking to a user who works always on the same machine and with the same connection.
That user would notice a huge increase of the update/install time in more recent versions of suse than in past ones (9.3, 10.0), without any advantage for him.
Yes, and hopefully opposite direction of changes in 10.3.
The download time is related to the connection speed, and the user is accustomed to his connection, so he will accept a long download time if he has a slow connection.
On the contrary he will not accept a long parsing time, because it wasn't there before, it's not there in other distributions and in other operating systems.
When developing a new software, the key point is to think as the user thinks, and not to try to find excuses to justify problems, or workarounds to make users accept the status quo.
Agree. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 03:11:05PM +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed.
In general, our libzypp developers are evaluating speed ups and download size increases for some time already. http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Refactoring has some notes on the current evaluations and work. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Marcus Meissner
On Sun, Apr 22, 2007 at 03:11:05PM +0200, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed.
In general, our libzypp developers are evaluating speed ups and download size increases for some time already.
http://en.opensuse.org/Libzypp/Refactoring has some notes on the current evaluations and work.
For those of you interested, developers are posting status updates to zypp-devel@opensuse.org regularly. Klaus --- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alberto Passalacqua schreef:
The parsing speed is what should be improved in 10.3, but what is faster, download or parsing, depends on Internet connection speed, internal computer I/O speed, amount of RAM and CPU speed.
In my opinion the evaluation of how the update system work should be independent from users' habits. We can't think to change their habits, it's a fight lost before it starts. It's easier to change the software, or the user will change it ;-)
Of course I did my reasoning thinking to a user who works always on the same machine and with the same connection.
I do not work allways on the same machine, but on every other machine it is just as disturbing.
That user would notice a huge increase of the update/install time in more recent versions of suse than in past ones (9.3, 10.0), without any advantage for him.
Exactly..
The download time is related to the connection speed, and the user is accustomed to his connection, so he will accept a long download time if he has a slow connection.
On the contrary he will not accept a long parsing time, because it wasn't there before, it's not there in other distributions and in other operating systems.
This is clean thinking....
When developing a new software, the key point is to think as the user thinks, and not to try to find excuses to justify problems, or workarounds to make users accept the status quo.
Yes, i totaly agree to this opinion ;-)
Regards, Alberto
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- -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.8-01-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.4" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGK6AJX5/X5X6LpDgRAvlbAKClEQxC6hGwSC72XGCG55rES/vnMACbBF7M rHIhwnyXXpnquO2WUxDdjzo= =oaJN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (13)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Benji Weber -
Christian Boltz -
Christian Jäger -
Gaël Lams -
Horst Günther Burkhardt III -
Joerg Mayer -
Klaus Kaempf -
M9. -
Marcus Meissner -
Martin Schlander -
Rajko M. -
Volker Kuhlmann