[opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

Lubos Lunak

2 Dec 2009 2 Dec '09

17:57

Hello, it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it. Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples. I'd prefer if such things didn't happen again, or at least if they were known in advance. And it even seems doable, because some changes already are announced, e.g. new gcc version, the switch to linking with --as-needed, etc. Therefore I want to suggest that announcing important changes in the distribution that affect other components of the distribution becomes mandatory. What would qualify for such a change is somewhat hard to specify exactly, but I'd hope using common sense to judge would do. For example "we remove support for X settings from YaST and require desktops to take care of these settings if necessary" or "we introduce new polkit-1, which is not backwards compatible to the old PolicyKit, and deprecate the old one" are clearly changes that should be announced. Something like "DHT support in KTorrent is now enabled/disabled" or "libjpeg is going to be upgraded from 6.2.0 to 6.2.1" is clearly of no interest, as long as it is not known to break other parts of the distribution - that would just create an unnecessary flood that nobody would follow. The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed). Comments? -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Show replies by date

Larry Stotler

2 Dec 2 Dec

18:06

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Lubos Lunak wrote:

...

it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it.

Another change was dropping PowerPC/POWER support for 11.2. It took a couple of weeks to get an answer as to what the situation was once we discovered that there were no 11.2 iso's for that platform. No announcement ahead of time. Granted I wasn't keeping up with the 11.2 devel so I missed out on some things. Maybe we could have a page on the opensuse.org site was well with a pointer to these lists for discussion. Also, posting a subject to multiple lists can be an issue. I don't subscribe to every list, so I can't keep up with an entire discussion sometimes....... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bryen M Yunashko

18:41

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 18:57 +0100, Lubos Lunak wrote:

...

Hello,

it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it.

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples.

I'd prefer if such things didn't happen again, or at least if they were known in advance. And it even seems doable, because some changes already are announced, e.g. new gcc version, the switch to linking with --as-needed, etc.

Therefore I want to suggest that announcing important changes in the distribution that affect other components of the distribution becomes mandatory.

What would qualify for such a change is somewhat hard to specify exactly, but I'd hope using common sense to judge would do. For example "we remove support for X settings from YaST and require desktops to take care of these settings if necessary" or "we introduce new polkit-1, which is not backwards compatible to the old PolicyKit, and deprecate the old one" are clearly changes that should be announced. Something like "DHT support in KTorrent is now enabled/disabled" or "libjpeg is going to be upgraded from 6.2.0 to 6.2.1" is clearly of no interest, as long as it is not known to break other parts of the distribution - that would just create an unnecessary flood that nobody would follow.

The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

Comments?

-- Lubos Lunak KDE developer

Lubos, I wholeheartedly support the concept you are advocating of a more transparent awareness of significant changes that affect our beloved distribution. And I personally endorse any effort to do that. But, I think we what we need to first address isn't the "announcement" itself, but the distribution of that announcement. Time and time again, I have seen a topic being discussed on a particular mailing list. Then two or so months later, someone else on that very same mailing list discovers something about that topic and says "Whoa, why wasn't I aware of this?!?" The SAX2 issue appears to be new to me. The PPC issue I've seen brought up even as far back as 4 months ago, and "Whoa" reappearances on the PPC matter since then. There's a serious problem in how we get the information out to everyone at the same time. Not all eyes are watching at the same time. I admit, even I don't watch all the time and when I suddenly hear about something, I have to scramble a bit to find more backdated info just so I can respond in the proper context. We also need to recognize that our Community is far larger than just our mailing list or even IRC users. There also exists a Community on the Forums and beyond that, I even define our Community as just users who don't actively follow our various venues of information distribution. So we need to address first... HOW do we distribute relevant and significant information to our Community in a timely and broad manner? I do not believe that the decision-makers on any particular change are intentionally holding back such information. I think they're just as bewildered as the rest of us in how to disseminate that information properly. I don't have an easy answer to that. -- Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member GNOME-A11y Team Member www.bryen.com (Personal Blog) www.planet-a11y.net (Feed aggregator of the Accessibility Community) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

19:14

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

The SAX2 issue appears to be new to me. The PPC issue I've seen brought up even as far back as 4 months ago, and "Whoa" reappearances on the PPC matter since then.

??? I subscribe to Factory and PPC and I never noticed anything regarding the dropping of PPC from 11.2. I could be wrong, but........ Granted, I don't read every thread, but if I see PPC in the title I read it....... So, which list was that PPC discussion on?

...

We also need to recognize that our Community is far larger than just our mailing list or even IRC users. There also exists a Community on the Forums and beyond that, I even define our Community as just users who don't actively follow our various venues of information distribution.

I've brought this up before. I wondered how many new openSUSE users got turned off by 11.1's KDE4 and just gave up without us knowing about it.........

...

So we need to address first... HOW do we distribute relevant and significant information to our Community in a timely and broad manner? I do not believe that the decision-makers on any particular change are intentionally holding back such information. I think they're just as bewildered as the rest of us in how to disseminate that information properly.

And how do we get it to those who don't participate in these lists? It's a huge challenge that i don't have a clue as to how to handle it...... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robert Schweikert

19:27

...

And how do we get it to those who don't participate in these lists?

IMHO this information should be "front and center" on the opensuse page. Possible a 4th button below "Create It" with the "Major upcoming changes" or "Upcoming large impact changes". Link this to a wiki page that contains details about the changes being implemented. People will still complain about, "I didn't know" but at least the information is not "hidden" on some mailing list or strangely named wiki page. Everyone interested in the project/distribution should visit www.opensuse.org at least once in a while between releases. Robert

...

It's a huge challenge that i don't have a clue as to how to handle it......

-- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Software Engineer Consultant LINUX rschweikert@novell.com 781-464-8147 Novell Making IT Work As One -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

19:28

Le 02/12/2009 19:41, Bryen M Yunashko a écrit :

...

There's a serious problem in how we get the information out to everyone at the same time

there is an announce list, very few used http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-11/ if not for the meeting annoucements it could be the good place for such things, giving the place where the actual discussion is held jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bryen M Yunashko

19:32

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 20:28 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Le 02/12/2009 19:41, Bryen M Yunashko a écrit :

...
There's a serious problem in how we get the information out to everyone at the same time

there is an announce list, very few used

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-11/

if not for the meeting annoucements

it could be the good place for such things, giving the place where the actual discussion is held

jdd

And not everyone wishes to be on a mailing list. Many in the Forums choose not to be on mailing lists. There's over 30K users there. That's significant. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Pavol Rusnak

3 Dec 3 Dec

13:12

On 12/02/2009 08:32 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 20:28 +0100, jdd wrote:

...
Le 02/12/2009 19:41, Bryen M Yunashko a écrit :

...
There's a serious problem in how we get the information out to everyone at the same time

there is an announce list, very few used

http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-announce/2009-11/

if not for the meeting annoucements

opensuse-factory mailing list with special tag in subject seems the best solution to me. Changes are happening in Factory, so it also makes sense.

...

...
it could be the good place for such things, giving the place where the actual discussion is held

I think announce should be about announcements not the discussion.

...

And not everyone wishes to be on a mailing list. Many in the Forums choose not to be on mailing lists. There's over 30K users there. That's significant.

And many developers choose not to be on forums, stalemate! -- Best Regards / S pozdravom, Pavol RUSNAK SUSE LINUX, s.r.o openSUSE Boosters Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xA6917144 19000 Praha 9, CR prusnak[at]suse.cz http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

15:30

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/3 Pavol Rusnak :

...

opensuse-factory mailing list with special tag in subject seems the best solution to me. Changes are happening in Factory, so it also makes sense.

I think announce should be about announcements not the discussion.

...
And not everyone wishes to be on a mailing list. Many in the Forums choose not to be on mailing lists. There's over 30K users there. That's significant.

And many developers choose not to be on forums, stalemate!

So perhaps RFC for discussion, then later when there's a plan and something installable to test (with the latest distro release preferably), an RFT "Request for Testing" referencing the technical discussion, and over-view of benefits and any caveats. That way, it would be simple for anyone in Factory list, to get URL of RFT thread, and post on behalf of developers in forum to encourage more community participation. The developer benefits from consulting and participation without high overhead, or needing to write special papers for publication on the website. It's not natural to start out deciding to join a mailing list, one joins because some event or discussion has been of interest, and it seems more useful. I noticed recently the forums, have now finally over-taken the mail lists in terms of registered users, so there is a "resource" of talent that has potential to help improve future releases. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jano Kupec

9 Dec 9 Dec

15:19

On 12/02/2009 07:41 PM, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

...

On Wed, 2009-12-02 at 18:57 +0100, Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
Hello,

it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it.

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples.

I'd prefer if such things didn't happen again, or at least if they were known in advance. And it even seems doable, because some changes already are announced, e.g. new gcc version, the switch to linking with --as-needed, etc.

Therefore I want to suggest that announcing important changes in the distribution that affect other components of the distribution becomes mandatory.

What would qualify for such a change is somewhat hard to specify exactly, but I'd hope using common sense to judge would do. For example "we remove support for X settings from YaST and require desktops to take care of these settings if necessary" or "we introduce new polkit-1, which is not backwards compatible to the old PolicyKit, and deprecate the old one" are clearly changes that should be announced. Something like "DHT support in KTorrent is now enabled/disabled" or "libjpeg is going to be upgraded from 6.2.0 to 6.2.1" is clearly of no interest, as long as it is not known to break other parts of the distribution - that would just create an unnecessary flood that nobody would follow.

The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

Comments?

-- Lubos Lunak KDE developer

Lubos,

I wholeheartedly support the concept you are advocating of a more transparent awareness of significant changes that affect our beloved distribution. And I personally endorse any effort to do that.

But, I think we what we need to first address isn't the "announcement" itself, but the distribution of that announcement. Time and time again, I have seen a topic being discussed on a particular mailing list. Then two or so months later, someone else on that very same mailing list discovers something about that topic and says "Whoa, why wasn't I aware of this?!?"

...

The SAX2 issue appears to be new to me. The PPC issue I've seen brought up even as far back as 4 months ago, and "Whoa" reappearances on the PPC matter since then.

There's a serious problem in how we get the information out to everyone at the same time. Not all eyes are watching at the same time. I admit, even I don't watch all the time and when I suddenly hear about something, I have to scramble a bit to find more backdated info just so I can respond in the proper context.

We also need to recognize that our Community is far larger than just our mailing list or even IRC users. There also exists a Community on the Forums and beyond that, I even define our Community as just users who don't actively follow our various venues of information distribution.

So we need to address first... HOW do we distribute relevant and significant information to our Community in a timely and broad manner? I do not believe that the decision-makers on any particular change are intentionally holding back such information. I think they're just as bewildered as the rest of us in how to disseminate that information properly.

I don't have an easy answer to that.

Are you sure we need to address the problem of 'not-all-contributors-subscribed-to-authoritative-MLs'? There _needs_ to be one central point for announcements like these. Why wouldn't anyone who wants to participate in the *development* of openSUSE want to subscribe to (or at least watch) a mailing list where important information like this is posted? As far as sub-project mailing lists and commnity forums are concerned, each of these should have someone who watches the central point of info and passes that info to the specific ML or forum and back To the problem of overlooking important information: special subject string convention like "RFC" is enough for me to catch my attention to a new discussion, and a special mailing list (e.g. opensuse-devel-announce@o.o) would be great for posting the announcment (the result of the discussion, the actual change to be done). The announce mailing list should have reply-to set to opensuse-factory@o.o. How about that? -- cheers, jano Ján Kupec YaST team ---------------------------------------------------------(PGP)--- Key ID: 637EE901 Fingerprint: 93B9 C79B 2D20 51C3 800B E09B 8048 46A6 637E E901 ---------------------------------------------------------(IRC)--- Server: irc.freenode.net Nick: jniq Channels: #zypp #yast #suse #susecz ---------------------------------------------------------(EOF)---

Lars Müller

17:40

On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 04:19:17PM +0100, Jano Kupec wrote: [ 8< ]

...

To the problem of overlooking important information: special subject string convention like "RFC" is enough for me to catch my attention to a new discussion, and a special mailing list (e.g. opensuse-devel-announce@o.o) would be great for posting the announcment (the result of the discussion, the actual change to be done). The announce mailing list should have reply-to set to opensuse-factory@o.o.

To me the project already has to many mailing lists. Therefore please consider to use one of the existing openSUSE lists for these type of announcements. RFC combined with a speaking subject should make it easy enough to filter such mails. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

Will Stephenson

2 Dec 2 Dec

18:54

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...

it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it.

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples.

I'd prefer if such things didn't happen again, or at least if they were known in advance. And it even seems doable, because some changes already are announced, e.g. new gcc version, the switch to linking with --as-needed, etc.

Therefore I want to suggest that announcing important changes in the distribution that affect other components of the distribution becomes mandatory.

I'd go a step further and say these important changes should be presented, discussed and agreed on a fixed schedule, aligned with the roadmap milestones. Right now we have freezes for kernel/toolchain, then everything goes until a bit later, then translations. I've never been privy to the old dist meetings, having just passed on what will be happening in KDE during the release development window to the relevant managers, and I expect that for much of the community that want to be a part of making openSUSE the development process is even more obscure, consisting mostly of announcements from Coolo before deadlines. How about opening the Technical Project Manager's batcave and sharing what all the critical components and teams are that have input into release design, setting up a couple of rounds of meetings or email to present all these potential Outside Context Problems [1] that can spoil each other's release cycles, and making the rules clear to deter late breaking changes? I'm not talking about SLE levels of paperwork here. Will [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excession#Outside_Context_Problem -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow

3 Dec 3 Dec

20:01

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 19:54:40 Will Stephenson wrote:

...

How about opening the Technical Project Manager's batcave and sharing what all the critical components and teams are that have input into release design, setting up a couple of rounds of meetings or email to present all these potential Outside Context Problems [1] that can spoil each other's release cycles, and making the rules clear to deter late breaking changes? I'm not talking about SLE levels of paperwork here.

Make a proposal on a setup that works and we can agree to it. So far I can't see such a setup. The dist meetings were never really useful and for those parts where they were useful I query opensuse-factory by mail and then it's gently ignored. If you need an example, look up the thread about me asking about as-needed and then compare the thread with who did all the work. There seems to be little to none interest into "release design", everyone seems to be happy with bashing with what others did or did not do. You're free to monitor all openfate entries and figure out which feature has impact on what teams. This is a full time job for at least 5 people I'm afraid. So Lubos's approach of everyone applying common sense when doing changes sounds to me like having the best chance to success. Meetings do not. So far the "who does the patch wins" policy brought us more goods than bads and I don't see a way to loose the bads without also loosing the goods. You're free to dream up a world where some small group of people can meet and decide what open source development will bring up in the next 8 months and how it influences 11.3, but I'm not living in such a world so I don't like to be part of that group. Again: I'm not happy with the current state on how we develop, so I'm not defending any part of it. I just know worse ways - and you seem to suggest one of them. If you (or whoever) have other ideas on how to improve the concrete problems we're facing (e.g. 170 failing packages + 30 expansion errors for factory and hardly anyone caring) I'm open to discuss them. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Oddball

2 Dec 2 Dec

18:58

Op 02-12-09 18:57, Lubos Lunak schreef:

...

Hello,

it repeatedly happens that there is a change introduced in the distribution that affects others yet those are not told at all or too late to do something about it.

Speed of things makes these unfortunate consequenses and side-effects happen more easy... It will not be always known in front, unless a depsolver would be run against those changes, to make predictions of what could break... But on the other hand: making changes, forces to repair what breaks... Not saying that it is nice not to know upfront what has going to get fixed...

...

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples.

Both consequenses are becoming visible while you wrote your thread. (as i was told to uninstall packagekit or break it, ignoring unfullfilled deps...sax2 same..as parts of yast...)

...

I'd prefer if such things didn't happen again, or at least if they were known in advance. And it even seems doable, because some changes already are announced, e.g. new gcc version, the switch to linking with --as-needed, etc.

Therefore I want to suggest that announcing important changes in the distribution that affect other components of the distribution becomes mandatory.

iirc, stephan anounced the departing of sax2 some months ago in this very list.... (probably not knowing what the exact consequences were at that moment...)

...

What would qualify for such a change is somewhat hard to specify exactly, but I'd hope using common sense to judge would do. For example "we remove support for X settings from YaST and require desktops to take care of these settings if necessary" or "we introduce new polkit-1, which is not backwards compatible to the old PolicyKit, and deprecate the old one" are clearly changes that should be announced. Something like "DHT support in KTorrent is now enabled/disabled" or "libjpeg is going to be upgraded from 6.2.0 to 6.2.1" is clearly of no interest, as long as it is not known to break other parts of the distribution - that would just create an unnecessary flood that nobody would follow.

The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

Comments?

As far as i remember there were always major changes in every new version, making updating a hell. Reason to make more clever update clients as zypper's development was a result of that... As these changes here, they were announced before the release of the last milestone of oS11.2, to be progressed in 12..... i guess there is time enough to deal with the consequences? (but, i am no authority, nor programmer, these are just plain thoughts....) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.31.5-0.1-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-SFN1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) KDE: 4.3.1 (KDE 4.3.1) "release 6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Larry Stotler

19:16

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Oddball wrote:

...

As far as i remember there were always major changes in every new version, making updating a hell. Reason to make more clever update clients as zypper's development was a result of that... As these changes here, they were announced before the release of the last milestone of oS11.2, to be progressed in 12..... i guess there is time enough to deal with the consequences?

That's why I don't update. I backup anything important and do a fresh install. Saves me from headaches later on. My / partition is always around 10GB so it's that much easier to do it.

...

(but, i am no authority, nor programmer, these are just plain thoughts....)

Nor am I. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Oddball

19:43

Op 02-12-09 20:16, Larry Stotler schreef:

...

That's why I don't update. I backup anything important and do a fresh install. Saves me from headaches later on. My / partition is always around 10GB so it's that much easier to do it.

Updating during the development is mostly doable, but sometimes it is nessesary to do fresh installs for various reasons: testing installers, partitioners, get rid of broken installs, you name it. As for this particular update GM11.2 to Factory11.3, the clients can be tested, because we have had, and sometimes still have: "dependency hell''. And there has been a lot of work done to get the clients up to date, and there will be needed still more to get them 'master of update'. Zypper has been improved very much since the beginning, and becomes reliable and easy to use. I always have 2 installs i can use. atm a 11.1, and since few minutes 12, ehm... 11.3, so there is something to compute if factory builds don't build, break, or get otherwise disabled....which enevetably will happen....lol. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.31.5-0.1-desktop x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-SFN1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) KDE: 4.3.1 (KDE 4.3.1) "release 6" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joerg Mayer

21:41

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

I think that there are a few more things not working right at the moment, they are also related to communication. Splitting the development process into subprojects (repos) where some of them have their own more or less active mailing lists was partially counterproductive: While using the kernel repo *might* justify the requirement to follow the corresponding mailinglist, once the changes/results become part of factory, this is no longer valid. The same goes for other repos as well. Another thing with the project specific repos are bugreporting/contact information: At least some repos (kernel, xorg are the only ones I checked) don't provide that kind of information in their packages: The only info is something like obs://build.opensuse.org/<project> and <upstream-url>. It would be helpful if the packages would contain the information on how to contact the maintainers of the repo/package in addition to the upstream project. Last point in this list is removing packages from the project (moving them to the attic) because they are either obsolete or unmaintained. Deciding this stuff is causing grief time and again because these discussions are on a packaging specific mailinglist. This is not where the *users* are. If it has been determined that a package should be removed, then this decision needs to be announced somewhere where the users of the affected package are - in some cases volunteers have been known to step forward and take over maintainance of the package - why cause grief beforehand? I have two major requests: 1) Make it possible to follow just ONE mailinglist and get informed about all changes that are likely to affect the project or severly affect the users of a specific package. 2) Provide contact information in the opensuse repos (maybe there is one and I'm just being blind, but neither rpm nor zypper seem to have it). Thanks Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

4 Dec 4 Dec

15:35

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009, à 22:41 +0100, Joerg Mayer a écrit :

...

1) Make it possible to follow just ONE mailinglist and get informed about all changes that are likely to affect the project or severly affect the users of a specific package.

The big issue with this one is that with one mailing list where everybody is subscribed, you'll get tons of replies for various topics, and therefore lots of noise, which makes it hard to see the important stuff. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

18:01

Le 04/12/2009 16:35, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...

Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009, à 22:41 +0100, Joerg Mayer a écrit :

...
1) Make it possible to follow just ONE mailinglist and get informed about all changes that are likely to affect the project or severly affect the users of a specific package.

The big issue with this one is that with one mailing list where everybody is subscribed, you'll get tons of replies for various topics,

no read only mailing list, IE openSUSE-announce jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Richard Creighton

19:48

On Friday 04 December 2009 13:01:32 jdd wrote:

...

Le 04/12/2009 16:35, Vincent Untz a écrit :

...
Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009, à 22:41 +0100, Joerg Mayer a écrit :

...
1) Make it possible to follow just ONE mailinglist and get informed about all changes that are likely to affect the project or severly affect the users of a specific package.

The big issue with this one is that with one mailing list where everybody is subscribed, you'll get tons of replies for various topics,

no

read only mailing list, IE openSUSE-announce

jdd

Right..and the announcement should include information where any discussion is ON-TOPIC and the way to subscribe to that list if not currently receiving that list. Probably most such announcements should be discussed on <opensuse> or a special <users-discussion> set up for just that topic, or in some cases, <opensuse-factory> where the announcement mostly affects developers or current beta testers. The original announcement should also be crossposted to the designated discussion list as a discussion seed thread. Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

5 Dec 5 Dec

09:13

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/4 Richard Creighton :

...

On Friday 04 December 2009 13:01:32 jdd wrote:

...
read only mailing list, IE openSUSE-announce

Right..and the announcement should include information where any discussion is ON-TOPIC and the way to subscribe to that list if not currently receiving that list. Probably most such announcements should be discussed on <opensuse> or a special <users-discussion> set up for just that topic, or in some cases, <opensuse-factory> where the announcement mostly affects developers or current beta testers. The original announcement should also be crossposted to the designated discussion list as a discussion seed thread.

I think there should be annoucements about the direction distro is heading in. It is important to inform the general user base about : 1) Discontinued packages & programs 2) New features in next release 3) Compatability issues & areas need attentive testing This info, helps to keep ppl involved, interested in testing new release at an earlier stage, and would create some structure ie plan to drop packages should occur early in cycle. A maximum of bi-monthly round up "Way Ahead Announcement" , as next release takes shape; possibly only 2, in the 8 month-ish release cycle we decided on. But they must not be so late that a "fait a compli" is presented with no time for adjustments due to release schedule. To inform the maximum number of ppl, then opensuse-announce & forum Announcement ought be made. The mail list opensuse is NOT the place for follow up discussion, it is an over high bandwidth list, mainly support related. Special interest lists, like Factory, kernel etc Can have discussions, and the annoucement can then inform rest of user base. They are also not the place, for discussion and gripes on that information, they DO NOT want the general user base flooding those lists. So an announcements-discuss seems logical, if something decided by special interest group proves too contentioius, then management needs to step in and some more consideration be made, by the special interests to cater to the general user base's needs. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce

6 Dec 6 Dec

01:11

On 05/12/09 09:13, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

2009/12/4 Richard Creighton :

...
On Friday 04 December 2009 13:01:32 jdd wrote:

...
read only mailing list, IE openSUSE-announce

Right..and the announcement should include information where any discussion is ON-TOPIC and the way to subscribe to that list if not currently receiving that list. Probably most such announcements should be discussed on <opensuse> or a special <users-discussion> set up for just that topic, or in some cases, <opensuse-factory> where the announcement mostly affects developers or current beta testers. The original announcement should also be crossposted to the designated discussion list as a discussion seed thread.

I think there should be annoucements about the direction distro is heading in. It is important to inform the general user base about :

1) Discontinued packages & programs 2) New features in next release 3) Compatability issues & areas need attentive testing

This info, helps to keep ppl involved, interested in testing new release at an earlier stage, and would create some structure ie plan to drop packages should occur early in cycle.

A maximum of bi-monthly round up "Way Ahead Announcement" , as next release takes shape; possibly only 2, in the 8 month-ish release cycle we decided on. But they must not be so late that a "fait a compli" is presented with no time for adjustments due to release schedule.

To inform the maximum number of ppl, then opensuse-announce & forum Announcement ought be made. The mail list opensuse is NOT the place for follow up discussion, it is an over high bandwidth list, mainly support related.

Special interest lists, like Factory, kernel etc Can have discussions, and the annoucement can then inform rest of user base. They are also not the place, for discussion and gripes on that information, they DO NOT want the general user base flooding those lists.

So an announcements-discuss seems logical, if something decided by special interest group proves too contentioius, then management needs to step in and some more consideration be made, by the special interests to cater to the general user base's needs.

Rob

Though I can see a certain wisdom in doing so, I'm also thinking of the fallout - instead of doing development, a significant amount of time could be spent dealing with copious numbers of questions and the to and fro arguments. This would tend to reinvent the same arguments as have been had within the developers' groups. Chances development gets stuck in the sidings and all we do is argue interminably, so someone has to lay down a marker somewhere, like discussion close off dates via email to lists - let's call it EODD (End Of Discussion Date). Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Egbert Eich

3 Dec 3 Dec

15:27

New subject: [opensuse-factory] YaST keyboard settings [WAS: RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution]

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:57:45PM +0100, Lubos Lunak wrote:

...

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM,

Since you keep pondering on the keyboard layout issue and since I finally understand what you are talking about I've opened a new thread to discuss this here. I'm not sure if you are barking up the right tree. This issue had been brought up by serveral X people and discussed with YaST people. Setting the default keyboard layout for console and X at startup is easy: Just change the KEYTABLE variable in /etc/sysconfig/keytable. A YaST module to do just that would be very simple: use a table to map between a descriptive text and map files add a few radio buttons for deadkeys etc. That this has not been done has a very simple reason (at least that's what has been explained to me): Users expect the changes to take effect as soon as they are made. If the changes are made in the UI version of YaST it is rather likely that X is running. However the X keyboard configuration should be left to the desktop toolkit which should keep track of the current configuration and nothing should interfer with that. Furthermore the console keyboard layout should not be changed while X is running because in the past bad things were happening (not even sure if this is still true). Thus when the user changed the default layout from within an X session and return to the console it still would have the old setting. As a cheezy workaround it was even suggested to only allow keyboard layout changes from within the ncurses version of YaST and only support them when running on the text console. However the reply to this was that it's not possible to have different menues in the UI and the ncurses version. The result was that there is no way of configuring the default layout (ie the layout of the text console and the intial layout for X) thru yast. I agree that this is not a well thought thru decision but this is nothing that can be solved by either X or KDE. If we can use this thread to get the discussion how to solve this going maybe we end up with something useable again? Cheers, Egbert. -- Egbert Eich (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH X Window System Development Tel: +49 911-740 53 0 http://www.suse.de ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stefan Dirsch

4 Dec 4 Dec

04:01

New subject: [opensuse-factory] YaST keyboard settings [WAS: RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution]

On Thu, Dec 03, 2009 at 04:27:06PM +0100, Egbert Eich wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 06:57:45PM +0100, Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM,

Since you keep pondering on the keyboard layout issue and since I finally understand what you are talking about I've opened a new thread to discuss this here. I'm not sure if you are barking up the right tree. This issue had been brought up by serveral X people and discussed with YaST people.

Setting the default keyboard layout for console and X at startup is easy: Just change the KEYTABLE variable in /etc/sysconfig/keytable. A YaST module to do just that would be very simple: use a table to map between a descriptive text and map files add a few radio buttons for deadkeys etc. That this has not been done has a very simple reason (at least that's what has been explained to me): Users expect the changes to take effect as soon as they are made. If the changes are made in the UI version of YaST it is rather likely that X is running. However the X keyboard configuration should be left to the desktop toolkit which should keep track of the current configuration and nothing should interfer with that. Furthermore the console keyboard layout should not be changed while X is running because in the past bad things were happening (not even sure if this is still true). Thus when the user changed the default layout from within an X session and return to the console it still would have the old setting.

As a cheezy workaround it was even suggested to only allow keyboard layout changes from within the ncurses version of YaST and only support them when running on the text console. However the reply to this was that it's not possible to have different menues in the UI and the ncurses version. The result was that there is no way of configuring the default layout (ie the layout of the text console and the intial layout for X) thru yast.

I agree that this is not a well thought thru decision but this is nothing that can be solved by either X or KDE.

Well, you can still set the Linux console keyboard by running 'yast2 keyboard' (well hidden now; not even mentioned in 'yast2 -l' any longer). This then gets mapped to an appropriate X keyboard layout the same way as it is also done during installation. But it would be much better to have a keyboard switcher inside of kdm as it is also offered by GDM (AFAIK) to change it on the fly - remembering the last setting. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel

09:59

New subject: [opensuse-factory] YaST keyboard settings [WAS: RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution]

Stefan Dirsch wrote:

...

Well, you can still set the Linux console keyboard by running 'yast2 keyboard' (well hidden now; not even mentioned in 'yast2 -l' any longer). This then gets mapped to an appropriate X keyboard layout the same way as it is also done during installation.

*grbml* I thought this was fixed as part of bug 540958 but still the desktop file for the keyboard module is missing. Filed bug 560713.

...

But it would be much better to have a keyboard switcher inside of kdm as it is also offered by GDM (AFAIK) to change it on the fly - remembering the last setting.

There are requests to support non-ASCII passwords for encrypted partitions. For that purpose the text console setting is crucial esp for the root partition as I doubt anyone wants to start X in the initrd. So no matter what convenience functions the DM offers we still need that yast module. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

15:29

Hey, We already discussed this at the openSUSE conference and the week after, and we agree on this topic. Just one nitpick :-) Le mercredi 02 décembre 2009, à 18:57 +0100, Lubos Lunak a écrit :

...

Examples would be the removal of X configuration including keyboard layout from YaST as a consequence of deprecating Sax2, meaning that it is now not possible to change keyboard layout for KDM/XDM, or the upgrade of PackageKit to a newer version that no longer had PolicyKit as a dependency but instead started requiring its newer and backwards incompatible version polkit-1, requiring rewritting KDE support from scratch (which is the reason why KDE in 11.2 uses polkit-gnome). In the first case, I don't remember that mentioned anywhere, in the latter case, the kupdateapplet maintainer was notified (where it didn't really matter) but not the KDE maintainers. Others could probably come up with their own examples.

The PackageKit story didn't really happen this way. I asked in #opensuse-kde if it was okay to update PackageKit, someone told me to ask the kupdateapplet maintainer, and everybody was okay. Now, surely, there was some miscommunication in all that, since the PolicyKit change didn't raise any alarm at that point. But the communication did happen. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

17:38

Now that the initial byte code interpreter patent(s) have expired, Fedora Rawhide has begun enabling BCI in Freetype. Has that happened yet in Factory? -- " We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

19:58

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 12:38:18PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Now that the initial byte code interpreter patent(s) have expired, Fedora Rawhide has begun enabling BCI in Freetype. Has that happened yet in Factory?

I think we did not notice yet. Can you open a FATE or Bugzilla Enhacement request? Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Felix Miata

5 Dec 5 Dec

17:16

On 2009/12/04 20:58 (GMT+0100) Marcus Meissner composed:

...

On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 12:38:18PM -0500, Felix Miata wrote:

...

...
Now that the initial byte code interpreter patent(s) have expired, Fedora Rawhide has begun enabling BCI in Freetype. Has that happened yet in Factory?

...

I think we did not notice yet.

...

Can you open a FATE or Bugzilla Enhacement request?

http://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561139 -- " We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion." John Adams, 2nd US President Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lubos Lunak

8 Dec 8 Dec

16:16

On Friday 04 of December 2009, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

The PackageKit story didn't really happen this way. I asked in #opensuse-kde if it was okay to update PackageKit, someone told me to ask the kupdateapplet maintainer, and everybody was okay.

Now, surely, there was some miscommunication in all that, since the PolicyKit change didn't raise any alarm at that point. But the communication did happen.

I don't remember you telling me the #opensuse-kde part, but anyway, the result shows the communication then could use an improvement. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

5 Dec 5 Dec

14:17

We've seen in the past week some examples of changes that might be considered important: * sax2 gets removed * Usage of KSM * dropping of packages, e.g. mainline bittorrent I suggest to evaluate how those work with the proposed solutions, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas Jaeger

10 Dec 10 Dec

10:05

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...

[...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details... I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas Jaeger

10:23

On Thursday 10 December 2009 11:05:01 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

[...] I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

Here's a first version of the page for discussion: http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Rob OpenSuSE

10:54

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/10 Andreas Jaeger :

...

On Thursday 10 December 2009 11:05:01 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
[...] I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

Here's a first version of the page for discussion: http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News

Added BitTorrent (Mainline) announced in http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-12/msg00200.html -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Vincent Untz

10:59

Le jeudi 10 décembre 2009, à 11:05 +0100, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
[...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I suggest RFC for the tag. That's what some people already use, and it makes sense. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

11:13

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/10 Vincent Untz :

...

Le jeudi 10 décembre 2009, à 11:05 +0100, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...

...
I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I suggest RFC for the tag. That's what some people already use, and it makes sense.

But RFC is useful for getting comments on new designs for example. These annoucements are more about breakage, or incompatible changes, and less opening discussion. A different tag would seem useful for that. Maybe "BRK" or something? Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Robert Kaiser

14:05

Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

2009/12/10 Vincent Untz:

...
Le jeudi 10 décembre 2009, à 11:05 +0100, Andreas Jaeger a écrit:

...
...
I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I suggest RFC for the tag. That's what some people already use, and it makes sense.

But RFC is useful for getting comments on new designs for example.

What we tend to use on Mozilla newsgroups/lists is an [ANNOUNCE] prefix to the subject, would that also be fitting here? Robert Kaiser -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jano Kupec

14:06

On 12/10/2009 12:13 PM, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

2009/12/10 Vincent Untz :

...
Le jeudi 10 décembre 2009, à 11:05 +0100, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...
...
I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I suggest RFC for the tag. That's what some people already use, and it makes sense.

But RFC is useful for getting comments on new designs for example.

These annoucements are more about breakage, or incompatible changes, and less opening discussion.

I guess they can be used also for non-breaking info, can't they? :O) Impornat things (TM) :O)

...

A different tag would seem useful for that.

Maybe "BRK" or something?

Rob

-- cheers, jano Ján Kupec YaST team ---------------------------------------------------------(PGP)--- Key ID: 637EE901 Fingerprint: 93B9 C79B 2D20 51C3 800B E09B 8048 46A6 637E E901 ---------------------------------------------------------(IRC)--- Server: irc.freenode.net Nick: jniq Channels: #zypp #yast #suse #susecz ---------------------------------------------------------(EOF)---

Rob OpenSuSE

14:35

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/10 Jano Kupec :

...

On 12/10/2009 12:13 PM, Rob OpenSuSE wrote:

...

I guess they can be used also for non-breaking info, can't they? :O) Impornat things (TM) :O)

...
A different tag would seem useful for that.

Maybe "BRK" or something?

Suppose someone like myself sees a FATE feature, and tries to implement it. How do I get open a discussion to get design feedback? RFC seems natural for that. If RFC is used for [Announce], then for RFC's one would need to do something else, or appear rather self important, and also mess up everyone's mailbox filtering, for annoncements. I think [ANNOUNCE] as used by Mozilla (and proven in USEnet for years) works much better in showing the intention. This thread used RFC in order to encourage discussion, the stated desire for the announcements is to avoid it. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lubos Lunak

11 Dec 11 Dec

17:02

On Thursday 10 of December 2009, Vincent Untz wrote:

...

Le jeudi 10 décembre 2009, à 11:05 +0100, Andreas Jaeger a écrit :

...
I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I suggest RFC for the tag. That's what some people already use, and it makes sense.

I disagree with either RFC or plain ANNOUNCEMENT. Such changes are neither requests for comments nor just any announcement. If this is to work, then it is necessary to include as many people doing development as possible and the overhead of this should small. Imagine somebody taking care of a couple of their packages but not really caring that much about openSUSE as a whole, for whatever reason (even if that reason would be just too much work or limited time, I think many of us here know mail folders with hundreds of unread mails). -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Jano Kupec

10 Dec 10 Dec

14:03

On 12/10/2009 11:05 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
[...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

What i don't like about the wiki is that it is hard to see incremental changes to it, like you would see on a dedicated announce mailing list. And you can reply to the announcement (in-lining the text) and further discuss on opensuse-factory. I agree with Lars in the other mail, that we should use some exising mailing lists, because we have too many, but opensuse-announce is for user announcments, what we discuss here is more a developer thing. I still see opensuse-factory for discussion (RFC or otherwise tagged mails) and some dedicated list only for announcmements (low traffic, only the results) as the best solution. But i'm also fine with just discussion on opensuse-factory and the wiki. 'RFC' in the subject is fine for me. -- cheers, jano Ján Kupec YaST team ---------------------------------------------------------(PGP)--- Key ID: 637EE901 Fingerprint: 93B9 C79B 2D20 51C3 800B E09B 8048 46A6 637E E901 ---------------------------------------------------------(IRC)--- Server: irc.freenode.net Nick: jniq Channels: #zypp #yast #suse #susecz ---------------------------------------------------------(EOF)---

Andreas Jaeger

14:51

On Thursday 10 December 2009 15:03:45 Jano Kupec wrote:

...

On 12/10/2009 11:05 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...
On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
[...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it? Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

What i don't like about the wiki is that it is hard to see incremental changes to it, like you would see on a dedicated announce mailing list. And you can reply to the announcement (in-lining the text) and further discuss on opensuse-factory.

I agree with Lars in the other mail, that we should use some exising mailing lists, because we have too many, but opensuse-announce is for user announcments, what we discuss here is more a developer thing. I still see opensuse-factory for discussion (RFC or otherwise tagged mails) and some dedicated list only for announcmements (low traffic, only the results) as the best solution.

But i'm also fine with just discussion on opensuse-factory and the wiki. 'RFC' in the subject is fine for me.

My proposal was to discuss on -factory and just have a pointer in the wiki to it so that somebody can easily lookup these some time later - so I think we're in agreement, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Lubos Lunak

11 Dec 11 Dec

16:54

On Thursday 10 of December 2009, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

On Wednesday 02 December 2009 18:57:45 Lubos Lunak wrote:

...
[...] The place for such announcements would be this list, with some specific subject to make it easier to spot them (and perhaps some more firm pointing to the right list would be needed for those who create noise, or something from http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2009-09/msg00354.html would be needed).

I see some consensus for this, so what tag should be used in the subject to mark it?

There seems to be some consensus, but watching the discussion I'm rather unsure what the consensus is about. I did not use 'development changes' in the description, since important changes affecting other components of the distribution may be also related to e.g. packaging, but, well, it's changes important for the *development* of the distribution, yet a big portion of the discussion seems to be about *user* changes. Even if you look at your http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , there is one item which clearly does not belong there (who with their developer hat on cares about some BitTorrent client?) and one which is unsure (for the KMS entry I did not get how it affects other parts of the distro besides X and kernel except for the few specifically listed fixes). Mind you, I have nothing against informing the users too, but I'd prefer not to wade in user discussions about how to configure something or how things used to be much better in the old days when I need to get work done. I'd almost prefer a opensuse-devel list or getting the purpose of this list better specified and followed.

...

Let's reword the proposal to work with missing details...

I would suggest: ===== Announcing important changes affecting development of next versions of openSUSE: Every important change in any component of the openSUSE distribution that may affect other components of the distribution should be announced on the opensuse-factory mailing list in the format given below. The purpose of the mail is to inform developers and packagers of the components about the change and give them information about adjustments they might need to do as a result. It is up to the developer to use common sense to judge if a change is worth announcing or not. Each change should be also added to the list at http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , containing links to all announcements for the upcoming openSUSE release. Format of the mail: The subject should be in the format '[DEVELOPMENT ANNOUNCE]: <name>'. The mail should describe: - What changes and how it may possibly affect others. (Example: Library libFOO is removed from distribution and replaced by library libFOOSUPER. Any component using FOO is probably affected. Also each package providing function BAR may be affected even if it doesn't use libFOO.) - How to adjust affected components. (Example: Porting to a different API and file renaming is required. Porting guide is at URL.) - Where to ask for more information if necessary. (Example: All questions and followup discussion should take place on opensuse-networking mailing list). Examples of changes that should be announced: - A library or other component of the distribution that is used by other components is removed or changes in backwards incompatible way. (Example: PolKit-1 is introduced in place of PolicyKit and desktops may need to adjust their PolicyKit support.) - A component of the distribution is removed and some of component may be required to replace its functionality. (Example: SaX2 is deprecated and modules for configuring X.Org are removed from YaST, where autoconfiguration does not work desktops are expected to provide their own tools for configuration.) Examples of changes that are NOT important enough to be announced: - A library changes in a backwards compatible way. As the change does not require any changes in other components, there is no need to do anything. - A change that affects only users but does not require changes in the distribution. For example, dropping a BitTorrent client from the distribution does not affect the development of the distribution in any way. ===== Does that look ok? For it to work it clearly also requires that developers/packagers send announcements to the list and watch for announcements from others. That in practice probably means either opensuse-devel list, being more strict about what is on-top in opensuse-factory, or adding to the HOWTO above that one should at least subscribe to the mailing list and set up filters to throw away everything that is not an announcement.

...

I also suggest to have a factory development page that links to all these announcements, so that we reference them from one place. What do you think?

A good idea. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 084 672 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Rob OpenSuSE

12 Dec 12 Dec

10:12

New subject: [opensuse-factory] RFC: Announcing important changes in the distribution

2009/12/11 Lubos Lunak :

...

Even if you look at your http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer-News , there is one item which clearly does not belong there (who with their developer hat on cares about some BitTorrent client?) and one which is unsure

I added that. Does it actually make sense to do only a partial list of removed packages, on grounds that "developer" don't care about some entries? If it does, then at minimum a link to the real complete list of dropped packages is required. How would you produce decent releases notes later if such changes aren't noted? What about if some other developer does care about user friendliness and reducing support questions, and wants to point users to alternatives with something like 'cnf'. Failure to communicate, is exactly what causes questions to get punted to developer lists, because the technical savvy people who answer questions on lists and in forums, cannot find the answers.

...

I disagree with either RFC or plain ANNOUNCEMENT. Such changes are neither requests for comments nor just any announcement. If this is to work, then it is necessary to include as many people doing development as possible and the overhead of this should small. Imagine somebody taking care of a couple of their packages but not really caring that much about openSUSE as a whole, for whatever reason (even if that reason would be just too much work or limited time, I think many of us here know mail folders with hundreds of unread mails).

To be inclusive and encourage more developers you need to inform outside so they become interested, and help mail filters and decent mail clients to sort traffic relevancy. There's "search" to lookup stuff, you need it even if you read every single message, because most of them will be forgotten. Rob -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lubos Lunak

16 Dec 16 Dec

09:31

Dne So 12. prosince 2009 11:12:38 Rob OpenSuSE napsal(a):

...

2009/12/11 Lubos Lunak :

...
Even if you look at your http://en.opensuse.org/Factory/Developer- News , there is one item which clearly does not belong there (who with their developer hat on cares about some BitTorrent client?) and one which is unsure

I added that. Does it actually make sense to do only a partial list of removed packages, on grounds that "developer" don't care about some entries?

It is not a partial list of removed packages, it is a list of important development changes.

...

If it does, then at minimum a link to the real complete list of dropped packages is required.

How would you produce decent releases notes later if such changes aren't noted? What about if some other developer does care about user friendliness and reducing support questions, and wants to point users to alternatives with something like 'cnf'.

This is something different. I have no problem with listing user changes too, but I have a problem with mixing them together. -- Lubos Lunak KDE developer -------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: l.lunak@suse.cz , l.lunak@kde.org Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 972 190 00 Prague 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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participants (23)

Andreas Jaeger
Bryen M Yunashko
Egbert Eich
Felix Miata
Jano Kupec
jdd
Joerg Mayer
Larry Stotler
Lars Müller
Lubos Lunak
Ludwig Nussel
Marcus Meissner
Oddball
Pavol Rusnak
Richard Creighton
Rob OpenSuSE
Robert Kaiser
Robert Schweikert
Sid Boyce
Stefan Dirsch
Stephan Kulow
Vincent Untz
Will Stephenson