Am 21.06.22 um 10:31 schrieb Peter McD:

Am 21.06.22 um 10:14 schrieb Lubos Kocman:

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Hello openSUSE!

The Leap 15.4 retrospective survey is still open until 22.06.2022 at 23:59 UTC. You can access the survey at survey.opensuse.org.

If you downloaded Leap 15.4, please make sure to give us feedback. It will not take more than 2 minutes as the survey has only two questions.

We have not received even half of the responses that we have received for 15.3. The openSUSE release team would highly appreciate any sharing or advertisement.

A link, please!

Sorry, I found it. And Firefox tells me: "Warning: Possibly security risk! in German "Warnung: Mögliches Sicherheitsrisiko erkannt Firefox hat ein mögliches Sicherheitsrisiko erkannt und survey.opensuse.org. nicht geladen. Falls Sie die Website besuchen, könnten Angreifer versuchen, Passwörter, E-Mails oder Kreditkartendaten zu stehlen." Peter

Am 22.06.22 um 04:06 schrieb David C. Rankin:

On 6/21/22 03:31, Peter McD wrote:

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Am 21.06.22 um 10:14 schrieb Lubos Kocman:

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Hello openSUSE!

The Leap 15.4 retrospective survey is still open until 22.06.2022 at 23:59 UTC. You can access the survey at survey.opensuse.org.

If you downloaded Leap 15.4, please make sure to give us feedback. It will not take more than 2 minutes as the survey has only two questions.

We have not received even half of the responses that we have received for 15.3. The openSUSE release team would highly appreciate any sharing or advertisement.

A link, please!

Peter

I just put survey.opensuse.org in the URL box and got it -- was a bit surprised it was a short 2 question survey. Not disappointed mind you, just surprised :)

Yes, but enough space for comments;-) Peter

Am 21.06.2022 um 17:30 schrieb Knurpht-openSUSE:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 17:23:01 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

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I had no idea there was a survey going on. You have not posted to the main openSUSE mail list, for instance. And there is no link It was on project@ ..... users@ definitely is not the "main" openSUSE list.

How many "regular users" do you think are subscribed to the project@ list? Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102

On Di, Jun 21 2022 at 18:09:13 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

AFAIR, it is the opensuse@opensuse.org address. That's the main address of the project.

That's a legacy address, we can't promise you it will continue working in the future even if it works now. Please do not use it. LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world/

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 18:09:13 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

AFAIR, it is the opensuse@opensuse.org address. That's the main address of the project.

No longer exists, it's users@, which is visited by a small group. Long off- topic threads don't change that.

The users list is definitely the list to post a survey on users. That's the main list. The most important list. The most visible one.

Nonsense. Most visible one is factory@ For Project related stuff it always has been project@ -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board openSUSE Forums Team

On 2022-06-21 19:04, Per Jessen wrote:

Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

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Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 18:09:13 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

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AFAIR, it is the opensuse@opensuse.org address. That's the main address of the project.

No longer exists, it's users@, which is visited by a small group.

users@lists.opensuse.org has 1139 subscribers. Adding "users-de" with 616 subscribers though, and the users lists are quite visible, for a "small" group. (ignoring the overlap).

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The users list is definitely the list to post a survey on users. That's the main list. The most important list. The most visible one.

Nonsense. Most visible one is factory@

That is at most your opinion, but as we know, regular users are not desired on factory.lists.

Exactly my point. If you want the feedback of users, you have to announce on the users' list (and other places).

As Mathias added, project.lists might not have that many regular users either.

And, few people responded to the survey...

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For Project related stuff it always has been project@

+1. Mind you, I don't see any announcement of this survey there either (except today's reminder). Maybe just due to the failing archive list search.

I searched my local archive, which goes back 4 months at least, and I don' see any post with the word "survey" in the body.

Anyway, it's offtopic here and it's really up to Lubos how he wants to attract people to that survey :-)

Ok! -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 22:33:20 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

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Exactly my point. If you want the feedback of users, you have to announce on the users' list (and other places).

Not gonna happen.

If I may, I suggest you ought to keep your unsubstantiated opinions to yourself, Gertjan. For an elected openUSE board member, you are behaving in quite an inappropriate manner.

Whenever I mention this users@ list, people turn away to start ranting about it.

We have to wonder _where_ it is that you mention the users.lists and if it is sufficient to give you any impression. Please, your bias is obvious, surely you ought to consider that as a board member.

So you people are pretty much on your own here.

"You people" ? thank you, I know who not to vote for next time.

You are not aware that many people outright refuse to subscribe.

I have to wonder how you might be aware of that. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (23.4°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

Carlos E. R. composed on 2022-06-21 17:18 (UTC-0400):

IF he and the devs and maintainers want feedback from users, better he posts where users are. Proven by the fact that users has not responded to his survey.

Logical observation.

That's all I am saying. I'm not asking Lubos to subscribe to the users list and converse there. But if he is making a survey and wants users feedback, he'd better announce that survey where users lurk. It does not matter what you, or he, think about the users list. That's irrelevant.

Catch-22. To post in users@ one must be a users@ subscriber, like all the opensuse lists AFAICT. Maybe those using @opensuse.org or @suse.* addresses shouldn't need to be subscribed. Is this already the case? How would one find out? https://lists.opensuse.org/ redirects to https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/, where there is no apparent mention that there are any rules for using lists, with overabundant whitespace. IMO, opensuse.org has too many lists, which means if someone wants to announce something that most if not all should see, in needs to be announced on all the busy lists, if not all lists. If it's not important enough for multiple lists, and not clearly specific to one list only, then announce should be the only place, not project. It's sensible, so should not need to be a published "rule", or chastised by yet another mega-thread. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata

On 6/21/22 16:52, Felix Miata wrote:

IMO, opensuse.org has too many lists, which means if someone wants to announce something that most if not all should see, in needs to be announced on all the busy lists, if not all lists. If it's not important enough for multiple lists, and not clearly specific to one list only, then announce should be the only place, not project. It's sensible, so should not need to be a published "rule", or chastised by yet another mega-thread.

Hmm, I do recall loudly complaining about the "rabbit-pellet" fragmentation of the mailing lists. It does make it difficult to know where to subscribe or where to post information. Since suddenlink.com is coming through again for me, I have subscriptions to: users announce factory kde3 packaging but on my gmail, I simply have users & kde3. Don't get me wrong, some specialization of the list is needed. factory, packaging, kde3 (and other highly specialized lists) are fine. With the traffic on announce, it might as well just go to user. To keep users informed of security and end-of-life. (would generate less traffic on users than just one of Carlos' stray posts :) -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

Felix Miata wrote:

Catch-22. To post in users@ one must be a users@ subscriber, like all the opensuse lists AFAICT.

Generally speaking yes. otoh, if Lubos wants permission to post to lists he is not subscribed to, all he needs to do is ask. Alternatively, because our list admin is an old grumpy greybeard, he could just quitely subscribe and disable delivery :-)

Maybe those using @opensuse.org or @suse.* addresses shouldn't need to be subscribed. Is this already the case?

No. There is no blanket permission like that.

How would one find out?

By asking the mailing list administrator and/or the admin team :-)

https://lists.opensuse.org/ redirects to https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/, where there is no apparent mention that there are any rules for using lists, with overabundant whitespace.

I expect the applicable rules can be found in our wiki.

IMO, opensuse.org has too many lists,

Yes, courtesy of our Board, for instance.

which means if someone wants to announce something that most if not all should see, in needs to be announced on all the busy lists, if not all lists.

We have lists dedicated to announcement: announce@lists.o.o (+2000 subscribers) security-announce@lists.o.o (almost 3000 subscribers) I would not necessarily have announced the feedback survey there, but I would have thought about where best to reach the "regular user". To me, that is the users' lists, in varying languages, plus whatever other comms channels people use for the same. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (27.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

* Knurpht-openSUSE [06-23-22 13:05]:

Op donderdag 23 juni 2022 18:49:22 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

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Generally speaking yes. otoh, if Lubos wants permission to post to lists he is not subscribed to, all he needs to do is ask. Alternatively, because our list admin is an old grumpy greybeard, he could just quitely subscribe and disable delivery

So, Lubos has to do the work, instead of the people on users@ subscribing to project@ ??

Richard wrote:

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I think such a criteria would put users@lists.opensuse.org to be the first list to be deleted.

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Gertjan, want to second my suggestion?

Eh, my initial reply would be yes, yet keeping those endless threads contained might have its advantages.

And please note that I'm a community member first, like my fellow board members, so do not use my Board membership as a means to shut me up.

if you wanted to make an announcement and were concerned that it reach a great number of "openSUSE" users, would you post to a debian list or a particular list that has a large number of "openSUSE" subscribers? ie: the "project" list does not fit. so certainly *only* post there. if one was not concerned about reaching anyone, why post at all? I know you *value* my "opinion". -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

On 23.06.2022 20:20, Per Jessen wrote:

Yes, if Lubos wanted a representative group of openSUSE users to answer two simple survey questions about Leap 15.4, it is up to him to pick the right place(s) to invite them.

Actually I suspect today more users are using forums than mailing lists. Not to mention social networks.

Lew Wolfgang wrote:

On 6/23/22 11:01, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

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Yes, if Lubos wanted a representative group of openSUSE users to answer two simple survey questions about Leap 15.4, it is up to him to pick the right place(s) to invite them. Actually I suspect today more users are using forums than mailing

On 23.06.2022 20:20, Per Jessen wrote: lists. Not to mention social networks.

As a codger, I much prefer mailing lists.  They're "push" technology in contrast to forums being "pull".  For me, forums are something that takes affirmative action to access and search, while email is just pushed in front of me.

As another codger, +1.

I would take elimination of the mailing lists as a very bad sign indeed. IMHO communities are held together with a common communication channel: email.

Both Richard and Gertjan were making poor jokes. However, we have in fact long had a major issue with the forums. They have been running on ancient payware for years, and we are unable to find anyone who is willing to support them. We _do_ currently have some ongoing effort for a migration, but in the same tongue-in-cheek style, our forums should have been killed off years ago. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (25.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes

* Felix Miata [06-23-22 15:54]:

Per Jessen composed on 2022-06-23 20:40 (UTC+0200):

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Lew Wolfgang wrote:

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As a codger, I much prefer mailing lists.  They're "push" technology in contrast to forums being "pull".  For me, forums are something that takes affirmative action to access and search, while email is just pushed in front of me.

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As another codger, +1.

+1

+1

...

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I would take elimination of the mailing lists as a very bad sign indeed. IMHO communities are held together with a common communication channel: email.

+1

+1

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Both Richard and Gertjan were making poor jokes.

Not evident to me.:( Are you sure?

definitely in very poor taste.

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However, we have in fact long had a major issue with the forums. They have been running on ancient payware for years, and we are unable to find anyone who is willing to support them. We _do_ currently have some ongoing effort for a migration, but in the same tongue-in-cheek style, our forums should have been killed off years ago.

The forum basics don't seem to be broken to me, other than occasional apparent temporary glitches on the servers.

I have never been able to understand why one would prefer the forums for nealy anything. but again, I have some age. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

Patrick Shanahan composed on 2022-06-23 16:29 (UTC-0400):

I have never been able to understand why one would prefer the forums for nealy anything. but again, I have some age.

I used to be like that. The reality is activity on opensuse lists seems to be on continuing decline, with few joins to compensate for those who have lost interest or outright left. As to prefer, I don't really, but it compensates for the lists' falloff. Plus: 1-pull becomes push once you participate in a forum thread, unless you opt out 2-formatting content is possible, and often more helpful than without 3-some very helpful and smart users there don't frequent, or are entirely absent from, the lists 4-binary attachments don't get downloaded to yours unless you actively request 5-forum "archives" are better than Postorious, Hyperkitty and most other mailing list archives that have replaced mailman's straight-forward, JS-free, CSS interference-free, plain text version -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata

On 2022-06-23 21:53, Felix Miata wrote:

Per Jessen composed on 2022-06-23 20:40 (UTC+0200):

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Lew Wolfgang wrote:

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As a codger, I much prefer mailing lists.  They're "push" technology in contrast to forums being "pull".  For me, forums are something that takes affirmative action to access and search, while email is just pushed in front of me.

...

As another codger, +1.

+1

+1

...

...

I would take elimination of the mailing lists as a very bad sign indeed. IMHO communities are held together with a common communication channel: email.

+1

+1

...

Both Richard and Gertjan were making poor jokes.

Not evident to me.:( Are you sure?

Heh.

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However, we have in fact long had a major issue with the forums. They have been running on ancient payware for years, and we are unable to find anyone who is willing to support them. We _do_ currently have some ongoing effort for a migration, but in the same tongue-in-cheek style, our forums should have been killed off years ago.

The forum basics don't seem to be broken to me, other than occasional apparent temporary glitches on the servers.

Read the admin posts. Not the moderators and such, but the people that maintain the hardware and the software engine, the server, the database... It is complicated. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On 23.06.2022 20:05, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

So, Lubos has to do the work, instead of the people on users@ subscribing to project@ ??

Yes. If you organize poll, it is your responsibility to reach representative respondents. Of course may be nobody even intended to ask actual users (as opposed to "contributors") in which case all this discussion is pointless. Still, I wonder, how many "contributors" are actually subscribed to project@ ...

On 2022-06-23 19:05, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op donderdag 23 juni 2022 18:49:22 CEST schreef Per Jessen:

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Generally speaking yes. otoh, if Lubos wants permission to post to lists he is not subscribed to, all he needs to do is ask. Alternatively, because our list admin is an old grumpy greybeard, he could just quitely subscribe and disable delivery

So, Lubos has to do the work, instead of the people on users@ subscribing to project@ ??

I'm astonished you have to ask this. Of course he has to do that work, he is the one that claims to want response from users on his poll. On the other hand, I should not be surprised that you think that way. I will ignore the rest of your post. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

* Knurpht-openSUSE [06-21-22 11:31]:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 17:23:01 CEST schreef Carlos E. R.:

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I had no idea there was a survey going on. You have not posted to the main openSUSE mail list, for instance. And there is no link It was on project@ ..... users@ definitely is not the "main" openSUSE list.

and still not availabe here on another "not main" openSUSE list. do you not understand that "users" are "interested" or is it secret only know to a few "select" individuals? yes, I know! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

* Knurpht-openSUSE [06-21-22 15:39]:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 21:25:30 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:

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do you not understand that "users" are "interested" or is it secret only know to a few "select" individuals?

I do understand that, and saw it on the ALP community meetings with > 50 other users that were present. What's the problem with subscribing to project@ ? So, not secret at all. Do not expect devs / release managers e.a. to subscribe to "your" selection of lists.

definitely not as I would not expect an election to *only* be announced on the "project" list. everyone has particular interests as in a selection of lists. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

* Knurpht-openSUSE [06-21-22 15:47]:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 21:42:43 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:

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definitely not as I would not expect an election to *only* be announced on the "project" list. Being involved here I can tell you that they are announced on project@.

and have been announced on opensuse-announce but not for discussion here -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc

On 2022-06-21 21:37, Knurpht-openSUSE wrote:

Op dinsdag 21 juni 2022 21:25:30 CEST schreef Patrick Shanahan:

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do you not understand that "users" are "interested" or is it secret only know to a few "select" individuals?

I do understand that, and saw it on the ALP community meetings with > 50 other users that were present. What's the problem with subscribing to project@ ? So, not secret at all. Do not expect devs / release managers e.a. to subscribe to "your" selection of lists.

I expect devs/release managers to post to users lists if they want users feedback, yes :-/ -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from Elesar, using openSUSE Leap 15.3)

On Tue, 2022-06-21 at 23:06 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I expect devs/release managers to post to users lists if they want users feedback, yes :-/

Big plus one.

Hello openSUSE! To start on the constructive note, to be fair with the community I've extended the Leap 15.4 survey for an extra week until 07.07 23:59 https://survey.opensuse.org/ Just for sake of history: We have 335 responses in total as of now. Regarding factory@ and project@ delivery that seems to be my fault as after looking in history, I see an undeliverable email as I did specify factory@opensuse.org and project@opensuse.org while cc`ing correctly devel@suse.de. So for that, I take the blame. See linked *pic, that the skip was not intentional. Factory users that read the release team report could still read it from our meeting minutes (was also shared on factory@, see subject: "openSUSE Release Engineering meeting 15.06.2022"). https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/ReleaseEngineering-20220615 I do agree that his was not communicated well, due to my fault at correctly addressing recipients. For the future I think best way forward would be to simply make it part of release annoucement and not create a separate annoucement for that. Or even make it part of get-o-o, e.g. in form of popup as we do for fresh GAs, when user visits /testing/. [0] - https://ibb.co/PN7f69H Lubos

On 6/21/22 17:23, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I had no idea there was a survey going on. You have not posted to the main openSUSE mail list, for instance. And there is no link.

Even better. We have this announce@l.o.o, maybe that could be used for this instead? I've just looked there, there is not even an announcement that Leap 15.4 is out... and announce is one of these ML that goes into the INBOX and doesn't get filtered into the some folder that doesn't get much attention. https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/announce@lists.opensuse.org/2022/6/ - Adam