[opensuse-factory] Default categories in Menus
Hi, openSUSE has a package that provides desktop environments with /etc/xdg/menus and /usr/share/desktop-directories required by former, called desktop-data-openSUSE. However, many desktop environments like XFCE (with libgarcon-data) and Gnome (with gnome-menus), provide menus and desktop-directories already. Meanwhile libgarcon also depends on desktop-data-openSUSE, which in that case makes no sense, because it's useless in XFCE anyway. Well, kinda useless, as it also provides KDM settings, a bunch of icons used by YaST (which I hope won't be used soon enough, working on that), yet YaST in no way depends on that package (???). openSUSE has around 130 categories in there, which makes updating that package and icons related to that package a nightmare in the long run. It also makes it so much harder to navigate menus in desktop environments, having to go through 3 submenus to get to anything useful. To say the least, it's a mess, but it doesn't end there. One of the files from that package is used for OBS's brp checks, the .desktop file category check. That has been truly annoying to some folks, who tried to package apps with categories listed by fd.o's standard (which was updated in 2016, yet desktop-directories remained untouched), but weren't able to due to lack of full compatibility with standard. How to fix it? I got an idea which will make dealing with categories, new version of standard and menus so much easier. fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently. OBS's brp check should have a list of categories and subcategories, based on which it determines if it should shout at packager. And not XML, because that makes it harder to edit and read that file. If file was in a human readable format (which XML certainly isn't) we could also get rid of wiki page that explains what categories are allowed, and instead reference the file itself. And split the desktop-data-openSUSE into more subpackages, because Gnome doesn't require KDE tweaks and vice versa. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [1] https://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html [2] https://specifications.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apas02.html PS: Can somebody take a look at https://github.com/openSUSE/desktop-data/pull/6 thanks :D LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
openSUSE has a package that provides desktop environments with /etc/xdg/menus and /usr/share/desktop-directories required by former, called desktop-data-openSUSE. However, many desktop environments like XFCE (with libgarcon-data) and Gnome (with gnome-menus), provide menus and desktop-directories already.
What a mess. There is duplication even. We have for example Game.directory from GNOME, kde-games.directory from KDE and suse-games.directory from desktop-data-openSUSE. The menu structure is meant to be desktop agnostic, so there shouldn't be a reason for KDE, GNOME nor anyone else to ship their own versions of the same thing.
One of the files from that package is used for OBS's brp checks, the .desktop file category check. That has been truly annoying to some folks, who tried to package apps with categories listed by fd.o's standard (which was updated in 2016, yet desktop-directories remained untouched), but weren't able to due to lack of full compatibility with standard.
The brp script is legacy. Should be ported to rpmlint nowadays.
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
And split the desktop-data-openSUSE into more subpackages, because Gnome doesn't require KDE tweaks and vice versa.
What kind of tweaks are that? I'd hope that we don't need desktop specific menus in the first place. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:35 AM, Ludwig Nussel
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
openSUSE has a package that provides desktop environments with /etc/xdg/menus and /usr/share/desktop-directories required by former, called desktop-data-openSUSE. However, many desktop environments like XFCE (with libgarcon-data) and Gnome (with gnome-menus), provide menus and desktop-directories already.
What a mess. There is duplication even. We have for example Game.directory from GNOME, kde-games.directory from KDE and suse-games.directory from desktop-data-openSUSE. The menu structure is meant to be desktop agnostic, so there shouldn't be a reason for KDE, GNOME nor anyone else to ship their own versions of the same thing.
I actually wonder why that's even done. What benefit does upstream Gnome or Xfce have in suggesting their own applications menu.
One of the files from that package is used for OBS's brp checks, the .desktop file category check. That has been truly annoying to some folks, who tried to package apps with categories listed by fd.o's standard (which was updated in 2016, yet desktop-directories remained untouched), but weren't able to due to lack of full compatibility with standard.
The brp script is legacy. Should be ported to rpmlint nowadays.
I hear Neal would like to see PRs with support for checking categories :P
Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
Sounds good to me.
And split the desktop-data-openSUSE into more subpackages, because Gnome doesn't require KDE tweaks and vice versa.
What kind of tweaks are that? I'd hope that we don't need desktop specific menus in the first place.
There is some stuff unrelated to menus in that repository ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-10-241 0:35 (UTC+0200):
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
-1 Those submenus are one of my favorite openSUSE features. I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Felix Miata
Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-10-241 0:35 (UTC+0200):
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
-1
Those submenus are one of my favorite openSUSE features. I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for.
Issue as always comes down to ability to maintain the 130 categories we got now. Freedesktop didn't expect that kind of usecase, and the only icons that __have to__ be in icon theme package are the main categories. Icons for additional categories are on our shoulders. Currently in factory we have 42 icon themes. If we subtract 13 main categories from 130 additional categories we maintain, we get 117. If we multiply 117 times 42, we get 4914. I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement). Obviously, we could ask freedesktop nicely if they wouldn't add that to standard theme icons, but that standard is supposed to remain as simple as possible, so I doubt that will happen. I'm trying my best to make YaST of all the things as easy to theme as possible, which is already happening, but one of the things I am advocating for is using as many icons from the fd.o standard, so both YaST team, Noah Davis, and me have way less work with additional themes that have to be created additionally to make YaST, and all the other openSUSE specific icons, integrate nicely with desktops we offer. Obviously, if you are willing to do the work required, I am all for it. Currently all the icons are in Oxygen theme, and I can assist you with new Gnome HIG guidelines, and I bet Noah will be happy to help with Breeze guidelines, but you cannot rely completly on us, because we have a lot of work to do already regarding the mess of theming that has been happening over the last 7 years or so. Or you could use Menulibre to create your own menus when we decide to drop the long list of current categories. I also created a nice short template for jekyll that generates menus based on new structure of directories I proposed here, which preserves the submenus for subcategories in my fork of brp-check-suse [1] LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world [1] https://github.com/hellcp/brp-check-suse/tree/master/brp-desktop.data/genera... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement) I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be
hellcp@opensuse.org composed on 2018-10-24 13:42 (UTC-0400): put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 24 oktober 2018 19:56:36 CEST schreef Felix Miata:
hellcp@opensuse.org composed on 2018-10-24 13:42 (UTC-0400):
I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement)
I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name. You have an open invitation to get help to actually make that happen. Please don't ignore that. I bet these guys are the ones that can make that real.
-- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Knurpht-openSUSE composed on 2018-10-24 20:12 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata composed:
I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name.
You have an open invitation to get help to actually make that happen. Please don't ignore that. I bet these guys are the ones that can make that real.
This old dog is too old for learning new tricks. I'm not a programmer and do not intend to try to become one. I can barely manage Bugzilla™ (learned 17 years ago), and get flummoxed trying to use github, gitlab, progress.o.o, discourse.* and other issue trackers and collaboration sites. Here I'm annoying at the repeated attempts to get me to change how I contribute. I do QA on bugs (cross-distro & upstream), respond to help requests, write problem reports, and do what little I can grok to update wiki pages. Each of them fits how, and when, my brain works. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:56 PM, Felix Miata
hellcp@opensuse.org composed on 2018-10-24 13:42 (UTC-0400):
I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement) I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name.
That will obviously depend on how that's supported. I know for a fact that dropdowns in GTK do not remove space reserved for images, it's just always there. In some DEs lack of icon will lead to default fallback, or `broken icon` icon. In those cases repeating icon will just look bad (especially with broken icon). LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/10/2018 19:56, Felix Miata wrote:
I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name.
Also seconded. I see no need for icons in menus and I don't think they particularly help. If there are problems with generating or selecting them, a simple answer would be just to drop them. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2018 04:26, Felix Miata wrote:
hellcp@opensuse.org composed on 2018-10-24 13:42 (UTC-0400):
I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement) I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name.
You may not, but different peoples brains work differently, for people like me who's brain is much better at recognizing colors and shapes I will almost always look at the icons even at there small size over reading the text. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 26/10/2018 01.57, Simon Lees wrote:
On 25/10/2018 04:26, Felix Miata wrote:
hellcp@opensuse.org composed on 2018-10-24 13:42 (UTC-0400):
I do not know about you, but I am not willing to draw 4914 icons in 42 styles (adding to that obviously that some themes require multiple sizes of icons, for most themes that's 6 sizes, 702 icons per theme with such requirement) I would be perfectly happy to never see an icon in a menu. Icons are usually too small to be of any use to me, and rarely what I use to make a menu selection. Better their space allocation be put to use for 2-3 extra letters for the selection's name.
You may not, but different peoples brains work differently, for people like me who's brain is much better at recognizing colors and shapes I will almost always look at the icons even at there small size over reading the text.
I look at the icons and recognize them, but only after seeing them many times and reading the text instead. Once I get used and get familiar to the icon that accompanies the text, I recognize the icon faster than the text. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9MDYQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1VU+AKCVJfMofTDl6Epd3pGTRfDmSZVQtQCfYcxrCzzDLM2FUpH2eP0mU7TiyJw= =eRZP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 24.10.18 um 17:30 schrieb Felix Miata:
Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-10-241 0:35 (UTC+0200):
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
-1
Those submenus are one of my favorite openSUSE features. I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for.
You have to explain your use case and desktop environment. A default install really shouldn't have so many things installed that you have to navigate through a huge tree of apps. And GNOME for example has no nested menu in the first place. KDE has a menu but deep nesting wouldn't make 'Marble', 'Spectacle' or 'KTnef' any more explanatory. The default structure leaves a flat and crowded Utilities menu and lots of submenus in Games. Doesn't make things easy to find at all. One improvement the KDE menu will see is switching to a different presentation mode as can be seen in Tumbleweed: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/781419#step/desktop_mainmenu/3 XFCE did something similar. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2018 10:51, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
One improvement the KDE menu will see is switching to a different presentation mode as can be seen in Tumbleweed: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/781419#step/desktop_mainmenu/3
I personally do not see that as an improvement. I think its discoverability is poor, I don't see what a grid has to do with choosing apps, and I do not want 4 or 5 separate menus in the same display control, I want one hierarchical list. I am a _reader_. A speedreader, in fact. I want _words_ not little abstract pictures whose meaning I must guess.
XFCE did something similar.
Not, I am happy to say, on my Tumbleweed Xfce system. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Liam Proven
On 25/10/2018 10:51, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
One improvement the KDE menu will see is switching to a different presentation mode as can be seen in Tumbleweed: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/781419#step/desktop_mainmenu/3
I personally do not see that as an improvement. I think its discoverability is poor, I don't see what a grid has to do with choosing apps, and I do not want 4 or 5 separate menus in the same display control, I want one hierarchical list.
I am a _reader_. A speedreader, in fact. I want _words_ not little abstract pictures whose meaning I must guess.
XFCE did something similar.
Not, I am happy to say, on my Tumbleweed Xfce system.
This change will not affect Xfce. As said previously, Xfce has their own menu structure. And that structure is exactly the same as I suggested. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.18 um 11:57 schrieb Liam Proven:
XFCE did something similar.
Not, I am happy to say, on my Tumbleweed Xfce system.
Try logging in with a new user, it should get the whiskermenu as "start menu button". If you just updated always, your old settings won't be changed. Of course the old "start menu" button is still available and can be configured (as replacement or in addition to whiskermenu), but the default for a new user profile has been changed for 42.3 or 150 IIRC. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2018 18:46, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Try logging in with a new user, it should get the whiskermenu as "start menu button".
If you just updated always, your old settings won't be changed.
Of course the old "start menu" button is still available and can be configured (as replacement or in addition to whiskermenu), but the default for a new user profile has been changed for 42.3 or 150 IIRC.
Fair enough. Thanks for the info. Although it requires more manual configuration than Unity did, I am happy with Xfce and now recommend it whenever people ask what desktop to use. The only feature I wish for is that I would like to be able to just pin apps to the panel -- then I could get rid of all my launchers. At this moment, for instance, I have _both_ launcher icons _and_ app window buttons for: * Thunderbird * Pidgin * Franz * Waterfox * Chrome * Oxygen * Parole It is how I liked things back in the WinXP era, but after some years as a Mac user, then more as a Unity user, it now seems like unnecessary duplication. When I click on a launcher icon, it would make more sense to me for it to /become/ the app window's button -- then revert to a launcher when I quit the app. I don't use Windows much, but there have been 2 features I actually like introduced since Win 8.0: pinning apps to the taskbar, and virtual desktops (in Win10). Combined with the ability to recursively search a directory tree for drivers, which appeared in Vista, those are the sum total of technical improvements in Windows for me in the last decade and a half. :-) One of them is irrelevant to Linux, the other it's had forever, but it makes me sad that the third is something I can't do with Xfce. (AFAICT, I can't with Cinnamon or Maté either, but since they can't do vertical taskbars properly, I don't use them so it doesn't worry me. KDE *can* do it, but it too can't do vertical taskbars well.) -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 19.04, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 18:46, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Try logging in with a new user, it should get the whiskermenu as "start menu button".
If you just updated always, your old settings won't be changed.
Of course the old "start menu" button is still available and can be configured (as replacement or in addition to whiskermenu), but the default for a new user profile has been changed for 42.3 or 150 IIRC.
Fair enough. Thanks for the info.
Although it requires more manual configuration than Unity did, I am happy with Xfce and now recommend it whenever people ask what desktop to use.
The only feature I wish for is that I would like to be able to just pin apps to the panel -- then I could get rid of all my launchers.
I add apps to the Whisker main window or panel or whatever is the name of that white space inside. I would not like to pin apps to the panel itself, the space is already limited there, specially in a tiny laptop like this one. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9H+CAAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1QlhAJ42YSA1eOovoXv0bwDfY6yY13fGmQCgiM0WePcihRnrEixMWNn/xPY/Sxw= =8kH8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 19:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I add apps to the Whisker main window or panel or whatever is the name of that white space inside.
I do do that, too.
I would not like to pin apps to the panel itself, the space is already limited there, specially in a tiny laptop like this one.
Try a vertical panel. Samples: https://imgur.com/a/fLeAy Works great on smaller screens, especially with intellihide. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvSA7kACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBYAFBAAxKkAUsi1iBQAoFF49VvdvaGSHHpAKCajLciIPSZOKOL3rq+3NLvZ8vDH Z5UBhOIqLKSdHnCHsk1bwU68V+Qx10uY/BkWGEqbyVj4wfVLuP38g4J6F9YccD+N 34LIWsX75pZIg6nSE0plnXuDQGCMMw0S++mUEkY3b+IbR9iyP5dbN99eM3/cncj5 1KQZ610ERXXYcng3ibhp3dtVkUfo/LRReKRTdzY+Q/8v2dYaDgNZS995XF1xfQY4 XSyKO41ghVFDdbzRUyB11BaFORzHA4By1G0SGJUtVUgbhBwvShqQY0Rq/R5hvzvB JP9gSCEJbKPkSQx9fiZGT9PkOntJEzfWRlepbuSkoK9I5s9ktAHk29njSFBqP7sI +5Q8zsqb5p+oY9XYw4VZRHpyqLDGDEMtNItCoQOdjJnnAGIa9BOQVyb2N8crvC3j BNjHN1Ce4pqGwyao2V2/a7rhJk4RPVo9eE+85c9oqdhDIT6wy1qxkMu3sGAmO2Id vD2nX7mYLp1fM0AclnpHZPfaOQpzTcCxts9a98iiO7ZaVIi+gPJBbW8mz9tWnXA1 XJnuD0/+QCty2dVhL0+6s89y/O2ck7W6gwDIAuNQfO0lj+zVv7V8N50ts64mPUbB 0QjGODRuLHPHd0PiPIqfVSO9TDaLwIZ2YPQa5Owtl4P84Ff3f/g= =YAE0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 19.56, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 19:31, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I add apps to the Whisker main window or panel or whatever is the name of that white space inside.
I do do that, too.
I would not like to pin apps to the panel itself, the space is already limited there, specially in a tiny laptop like this one.
Try a vertical panel.
Samples: https://imgur.com/a/fLeAy
Works great on smaller screens, especially with intellihide.
I tried it years ago. I did not like it, too much space taken out. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9IGFQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1T59AJ4q0TI2/dE8MW5f+FFavdB1UOTnggCfcOfiPkLtgQokOj0C2wT2I8l6rtU= =a5cC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 20:06, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I tried it years ago. I did not like it, too much space taken out.
Fair enough. To each their own, or /chacun à son goût/. Or /de gustibus non est disputandam/ if you prefer it more classical. :-) It is more or less a deal-breaker for me. I don't mind a horizontal panel too much on a 4:3 screen but on widescreens I always want it to be vertical. Unity and macOS deprive me of that, but they do use the top panel heavily. The space is thus well-used. One of the things that annoys me about GNOME 3 is that huge almost-totally-empty top panel with a clock sitting in the middle surrounded by acres of empty space. I am not _that_ bothered about the time. They even go to great lengths to collapse multiple indicators into single icons, so there can be even _more_ empty wasted space! It's not merely pointless, it's actively wasting my expensive pixels. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvSDA4ACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBYwehAAg2LOhon2VhVcKiPoam30lCJNiM6MTXFtwp0BgpsBnrFdaXHmNJ3Xvg8e 9HA0tZUsHsKgAecwqOvzMsz+jJ1wL7i7c0xIFQx1bfDKXCtDWxdvnb4fHeZ9Igf/ Kr0ZY8suTnB6ABHkSpZJWu738rMlZY9i9ZUWMPHR+tEiLccWIrcZ/mFeTYDkXyjZ vrjz/9tjvSV9RvrQu/ReH9jFUjDcIv86vQ2Let2x6QWNg1jw293FIm13+PmAQx2L YWgR2wwNIsxybfGaoqMDeLC3i5OMIB/mNK9r0CASqPmgG0yc/huOgw0TlcQv3Kuu nrqnSCSkme9CKiui1G5HMc/7TQPTm6JzHshCXGUjN1mh7fsX9BaFZ+RqfHGnApMC X7+gmfVm8zVI80RkAvH2IDsCSeupPRAsi2tUWIDNy1ZCitiLreRGhJbNO5yK7CDB Ripxw9nSrzNkUSqVwzcx6/Uo+YbrtS8a/N09o1p5ilImnb1djuMu3W7H0ks1UIse AsfWBEJVRLuB1k3QILOy33ISEauRENLmNGfPC0gs/fSKAyMCdLoWIDVlRnnBzS2Z rSiJNsKQ39jtN1SumEKFi8nNZViAj1Q6QW+yOyQjvlcNlOTwEcwzEkD37EIDEdaZ E4z/IUTs7eAs9YD+noManLaYuF3KKqd9zxr/Qmwk6FB5UpIrQ2s= =7kgm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 20.31, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 20:06, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I tried it years ago. I did not like it, too much space taken out.
Fair enough.
To each their own, or /chacun à son goût/. Or /de gustibus non est disputandam/ if you prefer it more classical. :-)
:-) On this other laptop (with Leap 42.3) I have the panel on autohide. On my tiny laptop I don't, I don't remember why. I think that sometimes it doesn't hide (and I have to move the mouse over it) or that when it hides there was a line hiding something of the main windows. I might try vertical again.
It is more or less a deal-breaker for me. I don't mind a horizontal panel too much on a 4:3 screen but on widescreens I always want it to be vertical.
It would have to be on autohide for me, or it would take too much space out of text writing applications (mail, office, etc).
Unity and macOS deprive me of that, but they do use the top panel heavily. The space is thus well-used.
One of the things that annoys me about GNOME 3 is that huge almost-totally-empty top panel with a clock sitting in the middle surrounded by acres of empty space. I am not _that_ bothered about the time. They even go to great lengths to collapse multiple indicators into single icons, so there can be even _more_ empty wasted space!
It's not merely pointless, it's actively wasting my expensive pixels.
I was a Gnome user for more than a decade, but with version 3 I had to run away, and found XFCE instead. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlvSJncACgkQja8UbcUWM1wCdwD/dQgRiB03mowHYTfYNhfJRyrW 9BdxgRrnkP+dOWdNmW8A/1rGwvBPp9CsWsEoGOeWuHplaamhm0iFdEqYw3yWiqY7 =brCH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 22:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was a Gnome user for more than a decade, but with version 3 I had to run away, and found XFCE instead.
Me too. GNOME 2 worked acceptably. I spent _ages_ trying to get vertical taskbars working, but I failed. I tried custom docks, I tried mix-and-matching panels from other desktops, I tried everything anyone could suggest but they just don't work right. But I used a pair of big 4:3 monitors in those days. So when Unity came along, with its efficiently-used top panel and a vertical dock/launcher thing that could be hidden when not in use, I was happy. I liked it better than GNOME 2. But if you *liked* GNOME 2, I would have thought that Maté was the desktop for you...? - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvS3C0ACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBZ50xAAqic4DnPO/ldnzcDhWikVLL4kGiCv9IWRq2asj1gGjzN2glSgR7yYzPVo kuHgOjxD0XFLzEAxUIQ96g3LR0pPVBNKdwtvJ/ByD1wEJnsRCvyw7bKIf2xNGJVV 2bKQpq2TX78+5jBwu3kLnOZH9H5sezY85w8r/BLYhK11XG77chbjse6q5XXuwArK XDegpuT+lF49S6l0yBwOSpUEdKUr2YQGsxG5/pHUuLJRONYkB47CrsxoK1q1RKCu Lpg+zHV1edW5dYn2scw4bEFwjOELliWHZx0jjElQrzHDDTAuM02uIXPTkT85XGma lfZTuvWKeFNbVT7stvoMTAjtAUD/FBoDlY5atsgeg6Qdb7TpobObR0Duxjq0kwDq 9qejYSHVwyhjqdcr8r3Mq59P0Xl7exm9tELZUhtdi4yCYqoDkdATunTMKz5OGVLh JRyXTv62Orp6/xZEB2e5L+BQmWXYDqTipuKwb9Lrl9GInsUP1VFLn/bo60KdtQqf lqc7dBkqtDkHa6jf+7AqdOFnAZWMiiqSFrir7MFh4KsMBi07StGaUatvUBaGhJ3g ftxvVZmG+yl/JgiXvpaGU2BM+9v5rilTkZS0bqg30xH4OTmKLNLXcxiINKsGJ+VV 3mQODvwSWuQr3gYb7NixCvuzb4esHMHcM9t4daZPq4BzIDNC0Wg= =lCEO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 26/10/2018 11.19, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 22:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I was a Gnome user for more than a decade, but with version 3 I had to run away, and found XFCE instead.
Me too.
GNOME 2 worked acceptably. I spent _ages_ trying to get vertical taskbars working, but I failed. I tried custom docks, I tried mix-and-matching panels from other desktops, I tried everything anyone could suggest but they just don't work right.
But I used a pair of big 4:3 monitors in those days.
So when Unity came along, with its efficiently-used top panel and a vertical dock/launcher thing that could be hidden when not in use, I was happy. I liked it better than GNOME 2.
But if you *liked* GNOME 2, I would have thought that Maté was the desktop for you...?
At the time, I think it was not available on openSUSE. I tried what was available and what other people commented as alternatives here. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9MD+wAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ZN9AJ9/DVzTJ627NxLpitYuU858H8OxdgCaA/P9R3SxXsvcCx4zEZ973fu0qEY= =BQKz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 26/10/2018 14:09, Carlos E. R. wrote:
At the time, I think it was not available on openSUSE. I tried what was available and what other people commented as alternatives here.
Ahh. Makes sense. Fair enough. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvTJqEACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBYlXBAA0F3tz332FZPMiYoP/NL2KR7zkcFmlL4pQzIko3tnbwSzbe0SRk1k+KFK p29+pe4O1YE84+BIk3uUytFslPLWHB7CvsO48VqJ3rarZf+kyqVYCd0HhDOIOYrb ljfX84+9zoHxPpq1Ub7p8HnX2Lm7sitmdW+tIxY+O99RGUu79a5KCYX/zhPMGwnG etrY7MVOa7iTlLVpHkZaBIS61RsdR8mv2en89MJGR9POc3MVR62V+aVROVd/H2Lt fjS3yG+JQNH/Y/8qCSDD1rbGiaDN9wNTG+66Qswn/wvNrAKZdAvxvIxE1KtlGp/F nwfHGAOpgiqbxOkzGLIpZxA0zonPqULkavr+w2cA5VwjJkC5bKd/ErjSWY1NuDDs rvrLj1LT36mD7NcSaSJ5OonsY92QtXBsWtTerqm756KvxwLBNj4XpwEZflYxcGqa te0YZ68cq1F31NSWibv7rijXpFq+OZtvxgZYUtr5YffXFFgpJVUH/E2iiLhasNCU zNJfs8ilYhgUSzCKxr9XXDxpNpukHr2VqbCL10V1iCEdz6XzT5oJpL4Cknu73PM0 EdbBrovVsSqNRntV3W0mE1gW8U4BNNoLocgqqYktdtdXbfaNQxRifaJw+8PoYLOV CcvZZ8zwUEdgfAtUSVhcyT87+WJnuf6I+X6BO3n0FhUMQ0RIAQo= =HCkX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 10.51, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
Am 24.10.18 um 17:30 schrieb Felix Miata:
Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-10-241 0:35 (UTC+0200):
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
-1
Those submenus are one of my favorite openSUSE features. I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for.
You have to explain your use case and desktop environment. A default install really shouldn't have so many things installed that you have to navigate through a huge tree of apps. And GNOME for example has no nested menu in the first place.
KDE has a menu but deep nesting wouldn't make 'Marble', 'Spectacle' or 'KTnef' any more explanatory. The default structure leaves a flat and crowded Utilities menu and lots of submenus in Games. Doesn't make things easy to find at all. One improvement the KDE menu will see is switching to a different presentation mode as can be seen in Tumbleweed: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/781419#step/desktop_mainmenu/3
XFCE did something similar.
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called, but has the "openSUSE" name and logo on it. I'll call it "main menu". Once clicked it has some buttons on top, to log off, configure, switch to another user. It has a few entries in the main area to open applications, which I normally have to remove and add my own. Then it has a list on the right: Favorites, Recently used, All, Accessories, Development, Games, Graphics, Internet, Multimedia, Office, Other, and Settings. Often I'm unable to find what I want. For example, where are the tools to manage PGP keys, ie security related tools or apps? If I start to type "PGP" I get: HP device manager, LibreOffice Calc, Cheese, Gimp, LibreOffice Impress, Mahjongg - all of them very much related to PGP, as you can see. Right? So I had to add to the panel two menu entries. One is called "Applications Menu", and opens "/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu". The other is called the same, but opens "/etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu". One of this has Utilities/Security - although it doesn't show ALL the PGP tools, they are on some other menu entry. Otherwise, I have to remember the name of the application and type its name on the main "menu", and I get the entry - what good is a main menu if I have to type the name of the application to get it? I might as well use alt-F2 instead. Remember that many XFCE users go there running away from the modernities of Gnome or KDE. We like traditional menus. I don't really care about the icons, but I do not understand the problem: each application should provide somehow its own icon and the menu handler should be able to find it automatically. From my times as Windows programmer I remember the exe file contained the icon resource in an standard way. Doesn't Linux do the same? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9GcPQAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1TjMAJ9BXAc4r32YIPKjMXUrOXnyOSJHSgCcCic24MUOrayFaBY9MmF5Bs3t+ws= =lwJM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Carlos E. R.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 25/10/2018 10.51, Ludwig Nussel wrote:
Am 24.10.18 um 17:30 schrieb Felix Miata:
Ludwig Nussel composed on 2018-10-241 0:35 (UTC+0200):
hellcp@opensuse.org schrieb:
fd.o's standard consists of 2 distinct parts, Main categories [1] and Additional categories [2]. Instead of having menus consist of Main categories > Sub categories, we should have just Main categories. They require less maintance, less icons, less translations and standard around them is updated less frequently.
If nobody else has an opinion on that fine with me. Personally I'd favor installing less by default anyways which would mean less crowded menus.
-1
Those submenus are one of my favorite openSUSE features. I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for.
You have to explain your use case and desktop environment. A default install really shouldn't have so many things installed that you have to navigate through a huge tree of apps. And GNOME for example has no nested menu in the first place.
KDE has a menu but deep nesting wouldn't make 'Marble', 'Spectacle' or 'KTnef' any more explanatory. The default structure leaves a flat and crowded Utilities menu and lots of submenus in Games. Doesn't make things easy to find at all. One improvement the KDE menu will see is switching to a different presentation mode as can be seen in Tumbleweed: https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/781419#step/desktop_mainmenu/3
XFCE did something similar.
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called, but has the "openSUSE" name and logo on it. I'll call it "main menu". Once clicked it has some buttons on top, to log off, configure, switch to another user. It has a few entries in the main area to open applications, which I normally have to remove and add my own. Then it has a list on the right: Favorites, Recently used, All, Accessories, Development, Games, Graphics, Internet, Multimedia, Office, Other, and Settings. Often I'm unable to find what I want. For example, where are the tools to manage PGP keys, ie security related tools or apps?
I believe current default menu is Whisker.
If I start to type "PGP" I get: HP device manager, LibreOffice Calc, Cheese, Gimp, LibreOffice Impress, Mahjongg - all of them very much related to PGP, as you can see. Right?
There are two issues with this, and I would like to believe this is a bug, and not intentional thing. What Gnome does with search, is to search using the whole desktop files provided in /usr/share/applications. If XFCE searches by just names, it will definetely be hard to find anything based on more generic terms. Another thing is that, even if it did search using category, there is no category specifically mentioning PGP anyway.
So I had to add to the panel two menu entries. One is called "Applications Menu", and opens "/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu". The other is called the same, but opens "/etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu". One of this has Utilities/Security - although it doesn't show ALL the PGP tools, they are on some other menu entry.
That indicates what mess categories really are. I mean, there is standard, but it is not conclusive enough that we are able to judge whether or not the category of certain desktop file is correct, because multiple options are still close enough. I would actually report anything that isn't in common category in those menus, but should be, it can be real pain to find stuff if that's the case.
Otherwise, I have to remember the name of the application and type its name on the main "menu", and I get the entry - what good is a main menu if I have to type the name of the application to get it? I might as well use alt-F2 instead.
Remember that many XFCE users go there running away from the modernities of Gnome or KDE. We like traditional menus.
I get that, but I don't see the value of having 5 subcategories per category, each containing 1 maybe 2 applications within it. It still makes sense to have 10 alphabetically sorted applications, because they are still easy enough to recognize.
I don't really care about the icons, but I do not understand the problem: each application should provide somehow its own icon and the menu handler should be able to find it automatically. From my times as Windows programmer I remember the exe file contained the icon resource in an standard way. Doesn't Linux do the same?
Linux, due to theming, provides icons in standard directory (/usr/share/icons, default theme is hicolor there). You can have icons inside of resource (my patch to libyui did just that with package manager emblems, but still accepts icons from themes). But this is not the issue. Categories have their own icons, and if we go out of standard when it comes to providing additional icons for categories, we need to provide those additional icons. Application icons are seperate thing entirely. LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2018 13:09, hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:
I get that, but I don't see the value of having 5 subcategories per category, each containing 1 maybe 2 applications within it. It still makes sense to have 10 alphabetically sorted applications, because they are still easy enough to recognize.
*You* may only have 10 apps. I estimate I typically have 10× more than that, or some multiple thereof. The same applies to my phones, tablets etc. So searching a single long list is very slow and inefficient. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:22 PM, Liam Proven
On 25/10/2018 13:09, hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:
I get that, but I don't see the value of having 5 subcategories per category, each containing 1 maybe 2 applications within it. It still makes sense to have 10 alphabetically sorted applications, because they are still easy enough to recognize.
*You* may only have 10 apps.
I estimate I typically have 10× more than that, or some multiple thereof. The same applies to my phones, tablets etc.
So searching a single long list is very slow and inefficient.
10 apps per category, 13 categories, 130 apps, math checks out :D LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 13.09, hellcp@opensuse.org wrote:
On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:
XFCE did something similar.
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called, but has the "openSUSE" name and logo on it. I'll call it "main menu". Once clicked it has some buttons on top, to log off, configure, switch to another user. It has a few entries in the main area to open applications, which I normally have to remove and add my own. Then it has a list on the right: Favorites, Recently used, All, Accessories, Development, Games, Graphics, Internet, Multimedia, Office, Other, and Settings. Often I'm unable to find what I want. For example, where are the tools to manage PGP keys, ie security related tools or apps?
I believe current default menu is Whisker.
Ah, but how am I going to know that, if the thing doesn't display its own name somewhere? :-)
If I start to type "PGP" I get: HP device manager, LibreOffice Calc, Cheese, Gimp, LibreOffice Impress, Mahjongg - all of them very much related to PGP, as you can see. Right?
There are two issues with this, and I would like to believe this is a bug, and not intentional thing. What Gnome does with search, is to search using the whole desktop files provided in /usr/share/applications. If XFCE searches by just names, it will definetely be hard to find anything based on more generic terms. Another thing is that, even if it did search using category, there is no category specifically mentioning PGP anyway.
I do not know how the search is done. I suppose it should be configurable. First by name, then by application short description. And the problem will be compossed if the desktop is not in English. I used PGP as an example of something that I know is hard to find.
So I had to add to the panel two menu entries. One is called "Applications Menu", and opens "/etc/xdg/menus/applications.menu". The other is called the same, but opens "/etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu". One of this has Utilities/Security - although it doesn't show ALL the PGP tools, they are on some other menu entry.
That indicates what mess categories really are. I mean, there is standard, but it is not conclusive enough that we are able to judge whether or not the category of certain desktop file is correct, because multiple options are still close enough.
I would actually report anything that isn't in common category in those menus, but should be, it can be real pain to find stuff if that's the case.
There is /System/Security, containing Clam TK, Firewall and Screensaver. Then there is /Utilities/Security, containing KeepPassXC, and Passwords and Keys, which is in fact Seahorse. In this machine Kleopatra is not installed, but I think it shows in one of the two on my other computers. Yes, it is a mess. Whisker shows "passwords and keys" under accessories. Also KeepPassXC. Also xfce-applications.menu does the same. Meld is under "development", go figure.
Otherwise, I have to remember the name of the application and type its name on the main "menu", and I get the entry - what good is a main menu if I have to type the name of the application to get it? I might as well use alt-F2 instead.
Remember that many XFCE users go there running away from the modernities of Gnome or KDE. We like traditional menus.
I get that, but I don't see the value of having 5 subcategories per category, each containing 1 maybe 2 applications within it. It still makes sense to have 10 alphabetically sorted applications, because they are still easy enough to recognize.
I agree. As long as it handles small displays nicely; I mean, when the list is larger than the display. I think it takes less time to browse a long list than five small lists.
I don't really care about the icons, but I do not understand the problem: each application should provide somehow its own icon and the menu handler should be able to find it automatically. From my times as Windows programmer I remember the exe file contained the icon resource in an standard way. Doesn't Linux do the same?
Linux, due to theming, provides icons in standard directory (/usr/share/icons, default theme is hicolor there). You can have icons inside of resource (my patch to libyui did just that with package manager emblems, but still accepts icons from themes).
But this is not the issue. Categories have their own icons, and if we go out of standard when it comes to providing additional icons for categories, we need to provide those additional icons. Application icons are seperate thing entirely.
Oh. So the icons are in several places. That's complicated. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9HCqwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1fl5AJ4s7kKcqM0BABKblNBxWFgXKxVbBQCaAvqWI9aPHzNTcZI0tEGf2UPDaGM= =KCut -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 15:18, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, but how am I going to know that, if the thing doesn't display its own name somewhere? :-)
It *does*. Right-click on the menu button itself. The first line of text on the context menu is non-selectable and contains the name of the applet. This is a standard Xfce feature and should apply to everything on your panel. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvRw1kACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBZysw//WAckRlfne6D+Thw4zmkDvEnEOUgPCKcy5rVYbYDnuHcEX14CvqfxLwFe yAQWui+N2TJihYI3ZPcKDyK1Gd5UOIaD65qfPV4st344VPOSsF6GHkb99bV3MNS/ 2pOFv9dlgWaoTMDXLlXDx1kri/+xffmo+QXSRukYwzka9LCcNsRc/fHd+P09RePq FVWrT53AahNxdDa7V2CmNt+K8cvgjFhsnKr8qOoU8X1KR1a+/K8ZUkqeFeQiUbxp 73Kgb871I4lX8U5TuHk6wAnQe/hJZWeHUqO/eLCCjvqqaqhfsnKT9FuMXHTLOWlw uym+7wFFIh6MxwpNpujRvb5DVB2IewpcW3u4Jrhlf4k9xzgGSB/+qnQFS4Ikk02/ omxrlhAYWHWGTxFaS/yEhWfl77cA9v1LJXQdQVAMXFJmcGkcdvz14KqxTNpaX3zN UvfxFAvn5HZ8q7ekFuLwSzxjSPUB8sprm8jgiEL+5LUqhxZVbqje2IbMc+o9INen s+YT2dDnmjUPTG+rHmb7kNJIV2z+U1PF1nrsRCX8x/ewWx5i60JSwFaWvDH9Esab EX7SnDSOo4xB7AsUG7rRI3fqyFspaUjuepdJrsniN+UFAZ2rzc0Ho+sHOob09khc ax+2FbAQIJzvQCUKGCPZYO4k9WW/ywUQg/mpJ+4N6atPXKIyyjA= =cxqh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 25.10.18 um 13:09 schrieb hellcp@opensuse.org:
If I start to type "PGP" I get: HP device manager, LibreOffice Calc, Cheese, Gimp, LibreOffice Impress, Mahjongg - all of them very much related to PGP, as you can see. Right?
There are two issues with this, and I would like to believe this is a bug, and not intentional thing. What Gnome does with search, is to search using the whole desktop files provided in /usr/share/applications. If XFCE searches by just names, it will definetely be hard to find anything based on more generic terms. Another thing is that, even if it did search using category, there is no category specifically mentioning PGP anyway.
It searches using everything, description and all. If I need to find "seahorse", then I'll get it e.g. by typing "pass" into the search field of whiskermenu, and I'll get it by the (german locale) caption of "Passwörter und Verschlüsselung", which is the Name[de] field: seife@strolchi:/dev/shm> rpm -ql seahorse|grep desktop$|xargs grep Passw Name=Passwords and Keys Name[de]=Passwörter und Verschlüsselung Name[en_GB]=Passwords and Keys Name[it]=Password e chiavi Comment[de]=Verwalten Sie Ihre Passwörter und Schlüssel I can also find it with "ssh", which is because of Keywords[de]=Schlüsselbund;Verschlüsselung;Sicherheit;Signieren;SSH; Unfortunately, only the last of the keywords seem to match any search, so this is probably a bug. ("Signieren" does not find anything). Categories= also does not seem to be used for search... -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 18.59, Stefan Seyfried wrote:
Am 25.10.18 um 13:09 schrieb hellcp@opensuse.org:
If I start to type "PGP" I get: HP device manager, LibreOffice Calc, Cheese, Gimp, LibreOffice Impress, Mahjongg - all of them very much related to PGP, as you can see. Right?
There are two issues with this, and I would like to believe this is a bug, and not intentional thing. What Gnome does with search, is to search using the whole desktop files provided in /usr/share/applications. If XFCE searches by just names, it will definetely be hard to find anything based on more generic terms. Another thing is that, even if it did search using category, there is no category specifically mentioning PGP anyway.
It searches using everything, description and all.
If I need to find "seahorse", then I'll get it e.g. by typing "pass" into the search field of whiskermenu, and I'll get it by the (german locale) caption of "Passwörter und Verschlüsselung", which is the Name[de] field:
But that forces me to change thinking. To me it is obvious that it is a PGP management tool. It does not manage passwords, maybe passphrases, which is too long a word to remember. "GPG" finds Gnome Phone Manager. "pass" also finds pulse audio manager, libre office writer... And does not find kleopatra, which on this laptop is installed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlvSKEIACgkQja8UbcUWM1woQgD/ccdl7FYj+l9mnYbndV3ZQfwp Es78g6gDiG/EPQMS8N4A/RT4W48fEqM99q4fS9y3nwkN40ZaXipg3mbyeOcPMkJ5 =hyGm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 25/10/2018 12:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called,
Right-click on it, and the applet name should be right at the top of the context menu. I use "whisker menu" instead of the default Xfce menu. Most Xfce-based distros seem to be using it.
Otherwise, I have to remember the name of the application and type its name on the main "menu", and I get the entry - what good is a main menu if I have to type the name of the application to get it?
I bind the Whisker menu to the Super (Windows) key. Then a tap of Super and a few letters of the app name get me the app I want -- much quicker than browsing, if I already know the name of the app. This is the same way that both Ubuntu Unity and GNOME Shell app launchers work, and Win8.x/Win10, and it's very close to cmd-space on macOS, so for me it has the benefit of familiarity.
I might as well use alt-F2 instead.
Alt-F2 requires you to type the name of the executable binary file. Hitting Super means typing the _displayed_ name of the program, not its filename. I find that easier, myself. For rarely-used apps, I do hunt through the menus. For ones I use a lot, I've got launchers pinned to the taskbar. But for ones in between, Super plus 2-3 letters is quick and convenient, IMHO.
Remember that many XFCE users go there running away from the modernities of Gnome or KDE. We like traditional menus.
True!
From my times as Windows programmer I remember the exe file contained the icon resource in an standard way. Doesn't Linux do the same?
Unfortunately not. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Liam Proven schrieb:
On 25/10/2018 12:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called,
Right-click on it, and the applet name should be right at the top of the context menu.
I use "whisker menu" instead of the default Xfce menu. Most Xfce-based distros seem to be using it.
So you got a menu with only main categories and entries that also show a description rather than just the application name... Anyone who wants to understand what LCP is talking about please install 15.0 with KDE and look at the menu. Don't tell me that's how we want it to be. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 13.21, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 12:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Using XFCE I have "something" I do not know how it is called,
Right-click on it, and the applet name should be right at the top of the context menu.
Ah, there it hides :-)
I use "whisker menu" instead of the default Xfce menu. Most Xfce-based distros seem to be using it.
15.0 uses it by default, or at least I got it.
Otherwise, I have to remember the name of the application and type its name on the main "menu", and I get the entry - what good is a main menu if I have to type the name of the application to get it?
I bind the Whisker menu to the Super (Windows) key. Then a tap of Super and a few letters of the app name get me the app I want -- much quicker than browsing, if I already know the name of the app. This is the same way that both Ubuntu Unity and GNOME Shell app launchers work, and Win8.x/Win10, and it's very close to cmd-space on macOS, so for me it has the benefit of familiarity.
But finding a tool to do something, if you don't know the name of the app yet, becomes very difficult. Try finding something to handle PGP keys. Or bluetooth! And when you find it, you might find that it is an app for another desktop. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9HIwgAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ULlAJ9wnXaneEXdbKpSkK3F+YdOPMkpzACdHRrYQbDMiWHY4UCcMS02VIAsyc8= =c+mb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 25/10/2018 15:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, there it hides :-)
Well it wasn't _very_ hidden!
15.0 uses it by default, or at least I got it.
I've been experimenting with Xfce on Gecko, Fedora, Xubuntu etc. It seems to be the standard now.
But finding a tool to do something, if you don't know the name of the app yet, becomes very difficult.
I just tried it with a few random keywords. wor... got me wordprocessors spre... got me spreadsheets imag- got me image viewers and editors tex- got me text editors Etc., etc. There's other stuff in there too, of course, but some useful suggestions.
Try finding something to handle PGP keys. Or bluetooth! And when you find it, you might find that it is an app for another desktop.
OK, fair call. They don't work. But that's because they're "hidden" inside the Xfce or Yast control panel apps. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlvRyj0ACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBYQXRAAo1CNtCt0tOtFP7iQ4ABOaKBUE7t25FWYiBZWENWrqwWeVtBbyzHosq4R JMtes8blmlktXQwkDkayCnDt7Pb8Ke8JtVfgz/g3y3RCB1s2wUxhub72M/zThyTb LTTLy2H7EPSjJXXhCxXEfiKqUU9YCGmcjfxvQpzVHr/VURbhHB0hjeDRR9v1Hq3T 85gV+rw9QUhB9KYjAgBAfv5lKIkc+BxFFz6S2rfrEkM7OgfJy7B58Tjw1vQ86Mce KbtGDYgewZBERJJizRSoScvqKgch5eiZ4IM4BPp4pdrtl/1AjuSg8q1CFbBSTTGY xfmBC6MKXWC1vqAhMMPjI6wzfKGK5eBjW1var75iamA0FGri7QZnInan8ACVn6WZ a9l1uCXgbq/7y99eFmfKOvHHa30859VcOd4TwSXTBlpcBDYwUJwdSVyJ6OfMwPON DCP4uRAJif2ZlExsw/R3ZIGDS4mgIH9+egtf1aBYvPfsE9Z5Yq+FJanETIINPk99 0sE4XZJnSiGzmOwmNYBIMGLvopXKootz0rIB02IArKnegvTASP3/0pPB08uMKic5 HjratWvxcG1ZvpExT4iE9jsYYZrEz39nC231+SEEWe0R8kdUd4wkCQa6MIxaO39S +anzh5gh+9Utw/lR/ia4GdHtdzvpxq5l7pUJLYXmRthgGTumrcY= =hBsN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 25/10/2018 15.50, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25/10/2018 15:44, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Ah, there it hides :-)
Well it wasn't _very_ hidden!
I only right-click when I intend to change configuration.
15.0 uses it by default, or at least I got it.
I've been experimenting with Xfce on Gecko, Fedora, Xubuntu etc. It seems to be the standard now.
But finding a tool to do something, if you don't know the name of the app yet, becomes very difficult.
I just tried it with a few random keywords. wor... got me wordprocessors spre... got me spreadsheets imag- got me image viewers and editors tex- got me text editors
Etc., etc. There's other stuff in there too, of course, but some useful suggestions.
Try "PGP".
Try finding something to handle PGP keys. Or bluetooth! And when you find it, you might find that it is an app for another desktop.
OK, fair call. They don't work. But that's because they're "hidden" inside the Xfce or Yast control panel apps.
No, PGP is done by seahorse, but there are other apps that I do not remember the names now. One is a tool inside Thunderbird, so that one hardly counts. Kleopatra I don't have installed in this little laptop. I don't see a tool to read an encrypted file, decrypt or encrypt it. Maybe Nautilus. Bluetooth in 15.0 I don't know what handles it on XFCE. On 42.3, nothing, had to be done by command line. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 15.0 (Legolas)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCW9H/rwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1T+eAJ9y/y0nsFoP6WTcQt27hlICkY2WmACdGm3hQ0WlYEtt0O0xIOVYHDConAA= =ycTX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 24/10/2018 17:30, Felix Miata wrote:
I've liked the tree branching menu style for more than two decades. Scrolling through main category lists is a pain, particularly when you don't know by name which app you're looking for.
Seconded. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
hellcp＠opensuse.org -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Liam Proven -
Ludwig Nussel -
Simon Lees -
Stefan Seyfried