On 02/14/2006 02:26 PM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

As i understand it, Novell is offering active help to you if you are ready to go this way.

That is also what I heard.

Trying this, the "consequences" for you (AVM) would be much better.

I must say, this decision is a punch in the face for companies, that have linux drivers. Those that dont care about linux wont have a problem with this decision. So I find it a hard decision, but I guess it had to be made. Best all of us can do is try to support those companies. And hope they will continue to support linux. OJ -- Carpe diem - Seize the day. Carp in denim - There's a fish in my pants! (unknown)

On 21 Mar 2006 at 15:23, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

Johannes Kastl schrieb:

...

On 02/14/2006 02:26 PM Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

I must say, this decision is a punch in the face for companies, that have linux drivers. Those that dont care about linux wont have a problem with this decision.

This decision is no problem for companies supporting linux (they have free drivers). It is, however, indeed a big problem for companies trying to profit from linux and giving nothing back in return.

I disagree: developing a driver for Linux is a significant amount of work, and you get something (the driver). You don't get the sources, but you didn't pay for. I'm sure you could get the sources if you are paying for them.

Using closed source linux drivers or windows drivers with ndiswrapper is similar. In both cases, the kernel becomes tainted and the result is not debuggable. However, companies creating closed source linux drivers claim to support linux. I fail to understand how they can make that claim.

I'm happy that Windows Vista will force most drivers into userspace, thereby invalidating all claims that it can't be done.

Is it really user space, or is it a different ring of protection? [...] Regards, Ulrich

On 21 Mar 2006 at 16:18, houghi wrote:

On Tue, Mar 21, 2006 at 04:00:17PM +0100, Ulrich Windl wrote:

...

I disagree: developing a driver for Linux is a significant amount of work, and you get something (the driver). You don't get the sources, but you didn't pay for. I'm sure you could get the sources if you are paying for them.

By buying the hardware, you inderectly pay for the software. If the hardwareseller decides to not use OSS, then he should also play buy the rules and either open the source or place them in such a way that it does not infringe the rights of others.

Actually if I need the hardware, I prefer having a closed source driver very much over having no driver at all. For example: My Polaroid SprintScan 120 (discontinued product) is not supported by Linux, the vendor did not give away any programming information (not made by Polaroid), and there is a danger that "wild programming" will damage the hardware. So I have to use MS-Windows to use the scanner. The price you are paying for the hardware is hardly worth a few weeks work of some engineer. The real problem is the Chinese marketing: The build hardware for half of the costs and distribute the software they haven't developed for free. So the original vendor of hard- and software will not earn money. Regards, Ulrich

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 14:37 schrieb Stephan Kulow:

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 14:33 schrieb Silviu Marin-Caea:

...

On Tuesday 14 February 2006 15:10, s.schmidt@avm.de wrote:

...

Novell's decision to have non-GPL drivers no longer integrated, AVMs drivers will not be included on the distribution media anymore. The

Is this really true? I would think that closed source drivers will only be missing from the OSS downloadable .iso images. They would probably be found in the supplemental CD and in the retail box DVD media.

Reading really makes a difference some times. I quote once again:

...

Most developers of the kernel community consider non-GPL kernel modules to be infringing on their copyright. Novell does respect this position, and will no longer distribute non-GPL kernel modules as part of future products.

The retail box DVD _is_ a future product and as such included in the above statement.

Greetings, Stephan

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I keep seeing this referred to, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere, I've glanced through the opensuse mail archives, opensuse news, Novell news, searched the Novell site (kernel remove/ban closed source/non-GPL), same with Google, for such a big change, it doesn't seem to have hit any news sites... Either that or the announcement doesn't include any of the keywords above... I would like to understand exactly what is involved in this decision and how it may affect me (E.g. I need the nVidia drivers currently for dual head and 3D, will these still be on YOU updates, or are they totally not available to SUSE customers through official channels? If the latter, how are SUSE getting around such restrictions to ensure their customers are unaffected by such a decision?). The only thing I found in the notes was the bit about kpm_ modules in Beta 4 in the announce list. I don't want to start ranting without knowing the facts, I also don't want to upgrade my dual-head set-up to 10.1 only to find I don't get any X afterwards... Dave

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 17:54 schrieb Marcus Meissner: <snip>

...

...

Reading really makes a difference some times. I quote once again:

...

Most developers of the kernel community consider non-GPL kernel modules to be infringing on their copyright. Novell does respect this position, and will no longer distribute non-GPL kernel modules as part of future products.

<snip> I keep seeing this referred to, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere, I've glanced through the opensuse mail archives, opensuse news, Novell news, searched the Novell site (kernel remove/ban closed source/non-GPL), same with Google, for such a big change, it doesn't seem to have hit any news sites... Either that or the announcement doesn't include any of the keywords above...

http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-announce/2006-Feb/0004.html

Ciao, Marcus

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Yep, I found that, but that just refers to a change in the mechanism due to this concern. It doesn't explain what exactly is meant by this removal and its implications for end users, and what Novell/SUSE will be doing to ensure their customers aren't affected by this change. Dave

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 18:06 schrieb Marcus Meissner:

...

...

...

I keep seeing this referred to, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere, I've glanced through the opensuse mail archives, opensuse news, Novell news, searched the Novell site (kernel remove/ban closed source/non-GPL), same with Google, for such a big change, it doesn't seem to have hit any news sites... Either that or the announcement doesn't include any of the keywords above...

http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-announce/2006-Feb/0004.html

Ciao, Marcus

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Yep, I found that, but that just refers to a change in the mechanism due to this concern. It doesn't explain what exactly is meant by this removal and its implications for end users, and what Novell/SUSE will be doing to ensure their customers aren't affected by this change.

Several modules will be gone from the shipping media.

There will be an interface between 3rd party vendors and Novell to provide kernel modules (in the KMP style described there), making it easy for those 3rd party vendors to build modules.

They can be offered by those vendors as easily installable resource (RPMs).

Nothing is stopping normal packagers (like the packman guys, or who ever) to not just also offer kernel modules in this way.

I understand (don't know for sure) that we are working with NVIDIA and ATI to make downloading their drivers possible this way.

That's good news, especially if ATi drivers can be delivered in the same way as the nVidia drivers currently are (i.e. autoscript from YOU)! I love SUSE with my nVidia machines, run YOU during install and everything is up and working. With ATi it is a nightmare, tried installing the beta on my laptop and the ATi's driver installer barfed somewhere along the line :-(

This is btw one reason for the packagemanager changes, that this package installation from multiple external sites is possible.

Ciao, Marcus

Thanks Marcus. OK, things are starting to make sense. The way this information is slowly leaking out in snippets in emails and during the IRC meeting is frustrating and could lead to a lot of confusion and doubt. Something of this importance really should be communicated on the news or roadmap pages with detailed information on what it means for users. Dave

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 18:59 schrieb houghi:

On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 06:35:14PM +0100, David Wright wrote:

...

The way this information is slowly leaking out in snippets in emails and during the IRC meeting is frustrating and could lead to a lot of confusion and doubt.

I agree. I still hear the tremours of the failed explantion on the fact that Gnome would be default instead of KDE on Novell Desktop. So perhaps a clear and unmistakable press-release is in order.

When done rightly, it can be a lot of goodwill from the Linux comunity. When done wrong, it can hurt bad, real bad and explaining afterwards will be impossible.

Perhaps suse-people can push the marketing people into action.

houghi

I've just started a thread on the main opensuse list about this very topic. Dave

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 18:06 schrieb Marcus Meissner:

Several modules will be gone from the shipping media.

There will be an interface between 3rd party vendors and Novell to provide kernel modules (in the KMP style described there), making it easy for those 3rd party vendors to build modules.

They can be offered by those vendors as easily installable resource (RPMs).

Nothing is stopping normal packagers (like the packman guys, or who ever) to not just also offer kernel modules in this way.

I understand (don't know for sure) that we are working with NVIDIA and ATI to make downloading their drivers possible this way.

This is btw one reason for the packagemanager changes, that this package installation from multiple external sites is possible.

Hmm, how do you download something, if the e.g. AVM DSL/ISDN Combo Card driver is missing (like it's the situation here), and that's the only way to internet? Sure, hopefully you already ordered the big fat red warning sticker for the boxed product which explains, that things which just worked before, won't do anymore! While I understand SUSE/NOVELLs standpoint concerning nongpl modules/packages, I also see, that you're in fact loosing a unique selling proposition, like Sven Schmidt noted by imposing a chicken/egg problem to your users, which can only be circumvented, if carefully planning an install/upgrade process. As a consequence, a bulk of reasons to choose SUSE Linux as preferred OS and to recommend that to customers is lost, since you enqueue yourself in the broad range of arbitrary LINUX Products without outstanding differences and continously loosing on the user friendliness front. Yes, I feel kind of bitterness, since I was responsible for a couple of XYZ Linux to SUSE Linux (9.3) server transitions in the last few month exactly because the avm drivers are included. The main reason was, that this critical part has to be recompiled on kernel updates, which isn't something, I can expect from those customers. I really hope, that SUSE get the package manager - before 10.1 release - to the point, where it prevents kernel updates, unless external kernel modules, which are tagged as critical for it's proper operation, are available. Otherwise, automatic updates cannot work, which is the real selling point here.. Even if I'm not in a position to comment the way, this decision was made, but it's bad style to do it very shortly before a release - actively preventing concerned parties to catch up / work around the newly imposed issues. Really bad style. Pete

On 14 Feb 2006 at 19:50, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote: [...]

Sure, hopefully you already ordered the big fat red warning sticker for the boxed product which explains, that things which just worked before, won't do anymore! [...]

I'd say that the media only includes GPL software now, and that Internet access is needed to download packages from non Novell-supported sites to complete the installation (media players, MP3, graphics drivers, modem drivers, printer drivers, ISDN, webcams, tuners, etc.). Maybe some would see that equivalent with "don't buy". Regards, Ulrich

On Wednesday 15 February 2006 09:30, Peter Czanik wrote:

...

Maybe some would see that equivalent with "don't buy".

I'm sorry to say, but I agree. The main selling point of SUSE was in my experience, that everything worked out of the box. And not just worked,

I think the issue is having proprietary binary-only drivers in the kernel vs. userspace. If those drivers are modified to be in userspace, SUSE will ship them on the media and it would work out-of-the-box. Is this right?

Silviu Marin-Caea writes:

On Wednesday 15 February 2006 09:30, Peter Czanik wrote:

...

...

Maybe some would see that equivalent with "don't buy".

I'm sorry to say, but I agree. The main selling point of SUSE was in my experience, that everything worked out of the box. And not just worked,

I think the issue is having proprietary binary-only drivers in the kernel vs. userspace. If those drivers are modified to be in userspace, SUSE will ship them on the media and it would work out-of-the-box.

Is this right?

According to my understanding of the GPL, if there is a GPL kernel driver that interacts somehow with a binary-only user-level program, this would be fine - and Novell could add the GPL kernel driver in any case - and the binary-only user-level program if we have the rights to distribute it (note: it would go to the FACTORY-EXTRA tree), Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Hi, Peter Czanik schrieb:

But if we get back to stone age and support only a smaller subset of drivers, and a lot others will just go away, as the main selling point: easy installation and exceptional hardware support just go away.

This only affects a *small* subset of ISDN and DSL cards and exactly one wireless chipset (atheros). I fully expect that the GPL driver for the wireless chipset will soon be stable enough to be shipped with the media and that the ISDN case can be completely resolved with GPL drivers if you don't need analog modem emulation. That means the only with a possible support problem are the Fritz-DSL cards (I don't have enough information about these). Proprietary graphics drivers are not affected as they were not shipped on the media anyway. So let's summarize: Short-term changes: Less WLAN/ISDN/DSL cards supported out of the box. Long-term changes: Less DSL cards supported out of the box. Personally, I think this is entirely acceptable since it reduces support load on SUSE kernel developers (less tainted oopses) and respects the express will of the kernel developing community. I will prepare a wiki page about the topic so that we can point to it for future flamewars. Suggested title is "New driver architecture". Comments? Regards, Carl-Daniel -- http://www.hailfinger.org/

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 12:29 schrieb Carl-Daniel Hailfinger:

Hi,

Peter Czanik schrieb:

...

But if we get back to stone age and support only a smaller subset of drivers, and a lot others will just go away, as the main selling point: easy installation and exceptional hardware support just go away.

This only affects a *small* subset of ISDN and DSL cards and exactly one wireless chipset (atheros). I fully expect that the GPL driver

The only wireless chipset/pci card, which handles wpa encryption - cool. Especially, since a SuSE colleague actively recommended such cards: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=104662#c2

for the wireless chipset will soon be stable enough to be shipped with the media and that the ISDN case can be completely resolved with GPL drivers if you don't need analog modem emulation. That means the only with a possible support problem are the Fritz-DSL cards (I don't have enough information about these). [...]

So let's summarize: Short-term changes: Less WLAN/ISDN/DSL cards supported out of the box. Long-term changes: Less DSL cards supported out of the box.

You're expressing an attitude here that may be adequate for an independent kernel developer, but cannot be accepted by a serious product manager for a product with such a wide propagation. This is in no way an exceptable solution for anybody owning any of these pieces. Imagine - some companies I advised SUSE Linux - depend on a e.g. working fax solution. Sure, 10.1 disqualifies in this discipline. I don't believe, that AVM will/is able to provide any userspace solution for ISDN fax emulation in the 10.1 timeframe. AFAICS, there's even a framework missing - if possible at all - which would allow this and meet the tight timing requirement of such a task. IOW, if a customer asks me for an upgrade of his SUSE and Fritzcard!PCI based fax solution, I have to tell him, that he has to buy an expensive AVM B1 card and throw away the old one, what do you think they will reply to me?

Personally, I think this is entirely acceptable since it reduces support load on SUSE kernel developers (less tainted oopses) and respects the express will of the kernel developing community.

Sure, disappointing customers definitely reduces the support load in every company. Such an attitude will actively damage the reputation of SUSE and you know - one disappointed customer has much more weight (and will spread the word louder) than ten satisfied ones.

I will prepare a wiki page about the topic so that we can point to it for future flamewars. Suggested title is "New driver architecture". Comments?

How about "New driver architecture - Novells disaster seekers strike back" Pete

Hi, On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 12:29 schrieb Carl-Daniel Hailfinger:

...

Peter Czanik schrieb:

...

...

But if we get back to stone age and support only a smaller subset of drivers, and a lot others will just go away, as the main selling point: easy installation and exceptional hardware support just go away.

This only affects a *small* subset of ISDN and DSL cards and exactly one wireless chipset (atheros). I fully expect that the GPL driver

The only wireless chipset/pci card, which handles wpa encryption - cool. Especially, since a SuSE colleague actively recommended such cards: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=104662#c2

...

for the wireless chipset will soon be stable enough to be shipped with the media and that the ISDN case can be completely resolved with GPL drivers if you don't need analog modem emulation. That means the only with a possible support problem are the Fritz-DSL cards (I don't have enough information about these). [...]

So let's summarize: Short-term changes: Less WLAN/ISDN/DSL cards supported out of the box. Long-term changes: Less DSL cards supported out of the box.

You're expressing an attitude here that may be adequate for an independent kernel developer, but cannot be accepted by a serious product manager for a product with such a wide propagation.

This is in no way an exceptable solution for anybody owning any of these pieces. Imagine - some companies I advised SUSE Linux - depend on a e.g. working fax solution. Sure, 10.1 disqualifies in this discipline.

I don't believe, that AVM will/is able to provide any userspace solution for ISDN fax emulation in the 10.1 timeframe. AFAICS, there's even a framework missing - if possible at all - which would allow this and meet the tight timing requirement of such a task.

IOW, if a customer asks me for an upgrade of his SUSE and Fritzcard!PCI based fax solution, I have to tell him, that he has to buy an expensive AVM B1 card and throw away the old one, what do you think they will reply to me?

...

Personally, I think this is entirely acceptable since it reduces support load on SUSE kernel developers (less tainted oopses) and respects the express will of the kernel developing community.

Sure, disappointing customers definitely reduces the support load in every company. Such an attitude will actively damage the reputation of SUSE and you know - one disappointed customer has much more weight (and will spread the word louder) than ten satisfied ones.

...

I will prepare a wiki page about the topic so that we can point to it for future flamewars. Suggested title is "New driver architecture". Comments?

How about "New driver architecture - Novells disaster seekers strike back"

At all, a very good statement. Let's hope Novell has success with their help offer to the driver vendors. It is Novell's own interest, not that of the driver vendors... Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:21:00PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Let's hope Novell has success with their help offer to the driver vendors. It is Novell's own interest, not that of the driver vendors...

The help has been offerd. There has not yet been any reaction, as far as I can see.

You won't see it here. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

Hi, On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, houghi wrote:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 12:13:47AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

The help has been offerd. There has not yet been any reaction, as far as I can see.

You won't see it here.

Why not? Does the above mean that there won't be any solution, or that you are working on a solution behind the screens?

If the latter a `we are currently working with ... on a solution.` should be enough. Communication should really go up. Especially when you notice that it is such an important issue.

My guess is: AVM just has dropped a statement here, they won't discuss here. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)

On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 09:08:03AM +0100, houghi wrote:

On Thu, Feb 16, 2006 at 12:13:47AM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

...

The help has been offerd. There has not yet been any reaction, as far as I can see.

You won't see it here.

Why not? Does the above mean that there won't be any solution, or that you are working on a solution behind the screens?

If the latter a `we are currently working with ... on a solution.` should be enough. Communication should really go up. Especially when you notice that it is such an important issue.

Nah! Consulting work with closed source driver vendors is nothing that is part of the _open_SUSE project and thus not necessarily done in public. But actually it would be a smart move of AVM to publicly state it if they are working on a solution if they publicly announced the problem because otherwise they leave the impression that they whine in public but are not actually interested in a solution which in my opinion does not really support their good reputation. Robert -- Robert Schiele Tel.: +49-621-181-2214 Dipl.-Wirtsch.informatiker mailto:rschiele@uni-mannheim.de "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

On 16 Feb 2006 at 0:02, houghi wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:21:00PM +0100, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:

...

Let's hope Novell has success with their help offer to the driver vendors. It is Novell's own interest, not that of the driver vendors...

The help has been offerd. There has not yet been any reaction, as far as I can see.

I can foresee statements like "Linux doesn't work" with the upcoming releases, thereby wondering how much Microsoft did pay to Novell for these decisions. (Because many users will dump Linux and go back to Microsoft). Maybe there are other products that fit the users' needs better. For less good hardware support you could use Debian years ago already. Regards, Ulrich

houghi -- It is better for civilization to be going down the drain than to be coming up it. -- Henry Allen

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Hans-Peter Jansen schrieb:

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 12:29 schrieb Carl-Daniel Hailfinger:

...

Peter Czanik schrieb:

...

But if we get back to stone age and support only a smaller subset of drivers, and a lot others will just go away, as the main selling point: easy installation and exceptional hardware support just go away.

This only affects a *small* subset of ISDN and DSL cards and exactly one wireless chipset (atheros). I fully expect that the GPL driver

The only wireless chipset/pci card, which handles wpa encryption - cool. Especially, since a SuSE colleague actively recommended such cards: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=104662#c2

Yes, the state of wireless under Linux is bad. Fortunately, a bunch of developers have pooled their efforts to get wireless support for every available chipset into mainline. I expect this project to be finished within the next 6 months. If you want WPA under Linux with GPL drivers, try the Intel PRO/Wireless 2200BG chipset. Prism54.org seems to have preliminary WPA support as well.

...

for the wireless chipset will soon be stable enough to be shipped with the media and that the ISDN case can be completely resolved with GPL drivers if you don't need analog modem emulation. That means the only with a possible support problem are the Fritz-DSL cards (I don't have enough information about these). [...]

So let's summarize: Short-term changes: Less WLAN/ISDN/DSL cards supported out of the box. Long-term changes: Less DSL cards supported out of the box.

You're expressing an attitude here that may be adequate for an independent kernel developer, but cannot be accepted by a serious

Exactly.

product manager for a product with such a wide propagation.

Because I'm an independent kernel developer, it is not my task to comment on project management decisions.

This is in no way an exceptable solution for anybody owning any of these pieces. Imagine - some companies I advised SUSE Linux - depend on a e.g. working fax solution. Sure, 10.1 disqualifies in this discipline.

So 10.1 will work perfectly for you.

I don't believe, that AVM will/is able to provide any userspace solution for ISDN fax emulation in the 10.1 timeframe. AFAICS, there's even a framework missing - if possible at all - which would allow this and meet the tight timing requirement of such a task.

If they don't want to provide a userspace solution, they can still ship binary only kernel modules. And the infrastructure for that is in place. Please look at the following link for details. http://www.suse.de/~agruen/KMPM/KernelModulePackagesManual-CODE10.pdf

IOW, if a customer asks me for an upgrade of his SUSE and Fritzcard!PCI based fax solution, I have to tell him, that he has to buy an expensive AVM B1 card and throw away the old one, what do you think they will reply to me?

It will work, see above.

Sure, disappointing customers definitely reduces the support load in every company. Such an attitude will actively damage the reputation of SUSE and you know - one disappointed customer has much more weight (and will spread the word louder) than ten satisfied ones.

I hope this will not damage the reputation of SUSE. I expect that you will be able to download all binary only drivers in RPM packages before 10.1 hits the shelves. So the only people disappointed will be those who don't download the drivers before installing SUSE Linux 10.1 and have no other way to obtain these drivers. Does this answer your questions? Regards, Carl-Daniel -- http://www.hailfinger.org/

...

I don't believe, that AVM will/is able to provide any userspace solution for ISDN fax emulation in the 10.1 timeframe. AFAICS, there's even a framework missing - if possible at all - which would allow this and meet the tight timing requirement of such a task.

If they don't want to provide a userspace solution, they can still ship binary only kernel modules. And the infrastructure for that is in place. Please look at the following link for details. http://www.suse.de/~agruen/KMPM/KernelModulePackagesManual-CODE10.pdf

That does not help the folks owning a USB device, does it? ;-) A kernel module stays a kernel module even if wrapped nicely! If it the upcoming kernels really prohibit loading non-GPL USB drivers, there is no way out: Userspace or being disconnected. IMHO, userspace won't happen.

...

IOW, if a customer asks me for an upgrade of his SUSE and Fritzcard!PCI based fax solution, I have to tell him, that he has to buy an expensive AVM B1 card and throw away the old one, what do you think they will reply to me?

It will work, see above.

Not for everyone, see above.

I hope this will not damage the reputation of SUSE. I expect that you will be able to download all binary only drivers in RPM packages before 10.1 hits the shelves. So the only people disappointed will be those who don't download the drivers before installing SUSE Linux 10.1 and have no other way to obtain these drivers.

... plus those unable to understand that even with a driver at hand, no connection to the internet can be made. I know, this update to the kernel USB API is not mainly SUSE's problem (although Greg, the originator of the patch, works for SUSE/NOVELL ;-)), but the bottom line is clear: 10.1 will be the no-go-box for many users out there. I can only hope, that they have a second running installation (i.e. an installation with Internet connection) available to them... Take care, Lysander Pensch -- DSL-Aktion wegen gro�er Nachfrage bis 28.2.2006 verl�ngert: GMX DSL-Flatrate 1 Jahr kostenlos* http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl

On Wednesday 15 February 2006 23:31, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

This is in no way an exceptable solution for anybody owning any of these pieces. Imagine - some companies I advised SUSE Linux - depend on a e.g. working fax solution. Sure, 10.1 disqualifies in this discipline.

Why do you recommend to *companies* a product designed for home use/enthusiasts? NLD9 and SLES9 are the right product for companies. If NLD10 and SLES10 would come out without support for hardware that worked with NLD9 and SLES9, then yes, your complain is justified. Otherwise, you should complain that it doesn't work anymore for private individuals.

IOW, if a customer asks me for an upgrade of his SUSE and Fritzcard!PCI

Silviu Marin-Caea wrote:

On Wednesday 15 February 2006 23:31, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

This is in no way an exceptable solution for anybody owning any of these pieces. Imagine - some companies I advised SUSE Linux - depend on a e.g. working fax solution. Sure, 10.1 disqualifies in this discipline.

Why do you recommend to *companies* a product designed for home use/enthusiasts?

There's nothing about opensuse 10.x that suggests it is designed for home use or enthusiasts only. I've used SuSE Professional and now 10.x for business purposes for at least 3 years.

NLD9 and SLES9 are the right product for companies.

I disagree. They're the right product for companies that require the kind of support and stability that accompany those products. Typically those are larger enterprises with strict change-management policies and such - smaller companies are often much more nimble ships that have no problem working with the normal release-frequency of SUSE Linux. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - managed anti-spam and anti-virus solution. Let us analyse your spam- and virus-threat - up to 2 months for free.

I'd recommend reading this. It describes some of risks associated with having the closed, binary modules in the kernel. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/354704 I was skeptical about Novell's approach before reading it - but now I agree with it more. Martin Schlander / cb400f

Hi H-P, On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:31:33PM +0100, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 12:29 schrieb Carl-Daniel Hailfinger:

...

This only affects a *small* subset of ISDN and DSL cards and exactly one wireless chipset (atheros). I fully expect that the GPL driver

The only wireless chipset/pci card, which handles wpa encryption - cool.

My prism2 works with WPA, as did ipw2x00 when I last tested. [...]

...

Personally, I think this is entirely acceptable since it reduces support load on SUSE kernel developers (less tainted oopses) and respects the express will of the kernel developing community.

Sure, disappointing customers definitely reduces the support load in every company. Such an attitude will actively damage the reputation of SUSE and you know - one disappointed customer has much more weight (and will spread the word louder) than ten satisfied ones.

I don't think Carl-Daniel wanted to make the point that SUSE kernel developers want to work less. But they can lose a lot of time with trying to work on issues that can not be resolved due to the presence of closed kernel modules. No theory, sad fact of life. I think their time is better invested if they work on improving the open-source drivers and get more of them into Linux and the distribution. Long-term it means better hardware support, not worse. [...]

How about "New driver architecture - Novells disaster seekers strike back"

Cynicism is always nice :-) Best, -- Kurt Garloff, Head Architect, Director SUSE Labs (act.), Novell Inc.

Hi Kurt, Kurt Garloff schrieb:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 12:29:18PM +0100, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

...

I will prepare a wiki page about the topic so that we can point to it for future flamewars. Suggested title is "New driver architecture". Comments?

I have prepared some information at http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel_Module_Packages

Great! I'll add more info (mostly non-technical "how does this affect users and what can they do about it") to it over the weekend. It seems there is even a mechanism to use vendor-supplied drivers and firmware during installation, so installation over WLAN/DSL/ISDN is possible. Regards, Carl-Daniel

houghi schrieb:

On Fri, Feb 17, 2006 at 04:50:01PM +0100, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

...

Hi Kurt,

Kurt Garloff schrieb:

...

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 12:29:18PM +0100, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:

...

I will prepare a wiki page about the topic so that we can point to it for future flamewars. Suggested title is "New driver architecture". Comments?

I have prepared some information at http://en.opensuse.org/Kernel_Module_Packages

Great! I'll add more info (mostly non-technical "how does this affect users and what can they do about it") to it over the weekend. It seems there is even a mechanism to use vendor-supplied drivers and firmware during installation, so installation over WLAN/DSL/ISDN is possible.

It would be nice if people who make a new page include them in at least one catagory from http://en.opensuse.org/User_Documentation

Yes, however the current text is not user documentation, but developer documentation. I will add a link to it once I have added some user- oriented paragraphs to it. Regards, Carl-Daniel -- http://www.hailfinger.org/

Hans-Peter Jansen writes:

Hmm, how do you download something, if the e.g. AVM DSL/ISDN Combo Card driver is missing (like it's the situation here), and that's the only way to internet?

The kmp packages can be made available as a package installation source that can be put on a media.

[...] I really hope, that SUSE get the package manager - before 10.1 release - to the point, where it prevents kernel updates, unless external kernel modules, which are tagged as critical for it's proper operation, are available. Otherwise, automatic updates cannot work, which is the real selling point here..

This is the goal and we'll test this as soon as all pieces are together.

Even if I'm not in a position to comment the way, this decision was made, but it's bad style to do it very shortly before a release - actively preventing concerned parties to catch up / work around the newly imposed issues. Really bad style.

I agree that communication wise we have not done a good job :-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

houghi writes:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 10:10:41AM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Hans-Peter Jansen writes:

...

Hmm, how do you download something, if the e.g. AVM DSL/ISDN Combo Card driver is missing (like it's the situation here), and that's the only way to internet?

The kmp packages can be made available as a package installation source that can be put on a media.

As I understand, they won't be put on suse.ftp or opensuse.ftp and thus won't be available on e.g. CD 6. Is that correct, or am I wrong?

Correct in the case of non-GPL drivers - but e.g. AVM or any developer could make their own CD and ship it with their products like they do for Windows. Now we only need a stable kernel ABI ;-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Wed, 2006-02-15 at 13:55 +0100, houghi wrote:

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 01:26:14PM +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Correct in the case of non-GPL drivers - but e.g. AVM or any developer could make their own CD and ship it with their products like they do for Windows. Now we only need a stable kernel ABI ;-(

They could do both. Having the drivers on teir CD would be a great thing. They then could put a Penguin on their box and just suport it as anything else. :-)

houghi

Ever thought of the possibility that they will ditch support for linux enterly? -- pgp-id: 926EBB12 pgp-fingerprint: BE97 1CBF FAC4 236C 4A73 F76E EDFC D032 926E BB12 Registered linux user: 75761 (http://counter.li.org)

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 23:13 schrieb Joseph M. Gaffney:

You're saying a company ditching linux support means that people have to scramble to appease the company? I demand the opposite. I use Linux, and I demand they appease me by providing Linux drivers. If they don't, I won't use there hardware.

You surely soon start learn using a braille display, don't you? Alternately, you may prepare a kernel patch, that redirects the serial console output to a line printer, before graphic adaptors with 2D interfaces vanish..

And I don't mean I won't use their hardware on a Linux machine. I mean I _won't_ use their hardware.

While I feel with you and try to cope with that demand (*), it just won't work in all aspects on current hardware. Pete

On Wednesday 15 February 2006 17:37, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

Am Mittwoch, 15. Februar 2006 23:13 schrieb Joseph M. Gaffney:

...

You're saying a company ditching linux support means that people have to scramble to appease the company? I demand the opposite. I use Linux, and I demand they appease me by providing Linux drivers. If they don't, I won't use there hardware.

You surely soon start learn using a braille display, don't you?

Alternately, you may prepare a kernel patch, that redirects the serial console output to a line printer, before graphic adaptors with 2D interfaces vanish..

Ok, I think I get what you're saying.... And you mean analog displays, with HDMI using HDCP on the way, right? The thing is, there are solutions in the works. I will also not support HDCP in any way. I'm an AV consultant, and I've voiced the reasons for this to my clients, keeping them far clear of HDCP. Will I be left behind? I doubt it, I've told NEC, Panasonic, and Mitsubishi some of the many reasons (beyond DRM mind you) why HDCP is a technology doomed to cause the consumer nothing but problems, and some of them are listening. Point being, if you don't like it, say something - if enough do, a company will always do something about it.

...

And I don't mean I won't use their hardware on a Linux machine. I mean I _won't_ use their hardware.

While I feel with you and try to cope with that demand (*), it just won't work in all aspects on current hardware.

Pete

I understand there are unavoidable situations, but they are exceptions - and exceptions never make the rule. Thats what makes them an exception, and why I will never consider an exception as a point for or against an argument. Something will only happen if you do something about it. Don't complain to the developers, complain to the company. Send them emails, letters, etc, etc. Seriously, will it take so much time to write a letter, by comparison to screwing around with a wierd piece of hardware for hours trying to get the most basic functionality? I never understood this mindset, honestly. Joseph M. Gaffney aka CuCullin

On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 01:55:42PM +0100, Aschwin Marsman wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Correct in the case of non-GPL drivers - but e.g. AVM or any developer could make their own CD and ship it with their products like they do for Windows. Now we only need a stable kernel ABI ;-(

The stable kernel ABI won't happen (soon), the changing ABI is used to make it difficult to provide binary only kernel modules and it's getting more difficult every time.

The goal of the changing ABI is however not to break binary only drivers, but to make the Linux kernel stay fast, clean, and innovating.

I'm personally searching for a laptop with GPL only drivers and that's not easy, it used to be GPL only drivers in the past when you bought a laptop which supported Linux but this is not always the case these days. And I don't want to be stuck with an older or specific distribution just because then all my hardware will work. Any tips are appreciated!

Especially WLAN and graphics card requirements have crept in... yes. Previously it was just winmodems... Ciao, Marcus

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

The stable kernel ABI won't happen (soon), the changing ABI is used to make it difficult to provide binary only kernel modules and it's getting more difficult every time.

The goal of the changing ABI is however not to break binary only drivers, but to make the Linux kernel stay fast, clean, and innovating.

That's correct, it's not the goal but a wanted side effect that is promoted actively in the last months (I'm reading the kernel mailing list since 1993 and these issues get overheated once in a while).

...

I'm personally searching for a laptop with GPL only drivers and that's not easy, it used to be GPL only drivers in the past when you bought a laptop which supported Linux but this is not always the case these days. And I don't want to be stuck with an older or specific distribution just because then all my hardware will work. Any tips are appreciated!

Especially WLAN and graphics card requirements have crept in... yes. Previously it was just winmodems...

And I don't care about a modem but do care about WLAN and graphics. Card readers are also an issue, as is working suspend. Leaves my question: which laptops are/will be SUSE certified who only need open source drivers? Especially with 10.1 on the horizon without binary modules out of the box this will become a FAQ.

Ciao, Marcus

Best regards, Aschwin Marsman -- aschwin@marsman.org http://www.marsman.org

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2006 14:06 schrieb Kurt Garloff:

Hi Hans-Peter,

On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 07:50:51PM +0100, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2006 18:06 schrieb Marcus Meissner:

...

This is btw one reason for the packagemanager changes, that this package installation from multiple external sites is possible.

Hmm, how do you download something, if the e.g. AVM DSL/ISDN Combo Card driver is missing (like it's the situation here), and that's the only way to internet?

Sure, hopefully you already ordered the big fat red warning sticker for the boxed product which explains, that things which just worked before, won't do anymore!

This is not new.

We've always been fighting to get as much support for new hardware in by e.g. using the latest kernels, trying to add newer drivers from various sources and integrating them. And along the way, sometimes a piece of hardware stopped working, as the driver had not been ported to a newer kernel or because tests exposed that it was more a danger to the user than a help.

...

While I understand SUSE/NOVELLs standpoint concerning nongpl modules/packages, I also see, that you're in fact loosing a unique selling proposition, like Sven Schmidt noted by imposing a chicken/egg problem to your users, which can only be circumvented, if carefully planning an install/upgrade process.

I don't think that increasing the amount of supported hardware by a small amount by violating the rules of the community by supplying non-GPL kernel modules is the right differentiator. I think that fighting to get more hardware supported with GPL drivers is the better way to go. This is the strategy that the creators of Linux are setting and Linux has come to where it is now by most people supporting this. SUSE has always been supporting this as well -- just it has been somewhat generous with exceptions.

I think the problem isn't that openSUSE are aiming to remove non-GPL drivers from the Kernel. This is a good aim. The problem, at least for me, is just in the way it is being communicated, or not. It appeared, for me, as part of the last IRC meeting as fait-acomplie: openSUSE are dropping all non-GPL drivers forthwith, no discussion, no announcement of how this would affect existing users and not that it would be from the next version (10.2), but the currently developed version due for release in the next couple of months. No information on how they were going to cope with non-GPL drivers that couldn't be replaced in time for release, no information on whether we would still be able to get/install the packages through YOU or as extra packages in a YAST repositories or whether we would need to scavenge the net for binaries and compile them into custom kernels for ourselves. And also that it was let-slip, as opposed to announced formally, when Beta 4 was due for release, I would expect such a major change to be announced as the first alpha for 10.2 would be announced, so that suppliers who currently have non-GPL drivers had a decent amount of time to ramp-up a development stream to work on a solution. The way it came out, it looks like everybody has "a few weeks" to get all of this sorted. Of course, this is just how it appears to the "public", when the decision was made and when the suppliers were informed is another matter. I've only been on the lists for a month or so, so sorry if I missed this being announced in November or December, for example, although looking at the mail subject lines in the archive nothing sprang out about it, and it hasn't appeared on any news feeds I subscribe to, and something like this would be fairly big news I would have thought. That is why companies like Novell have a PR department, although the fiasco they caused with using Gnome desktop as a default for Novell Linux isn't reassuring...

SUSE has invested some work to support such exceptions in the past. Are you telling me that the handful of drivers that we can not support any more the same way we did are the key differentiator that made you chose SUSE Linux?

Yes. All, or most, distros can be made to use KDE or Gnome, they can all run the same apps. The key differentiators for using SUSE for me were: a) It works, it recognises and installs all of my hardware without me having to scavenge the net and search out drivers and rebuild kernels. I've been using SUSE since 2001 and I haven't had to touch gcc for anything that I've needed so far, only for my own work. b) Auto-scripts for things like loading the nVidia drivers during install (well, this is an extension of the previous point), but the OSS nVidia drivers don't, or didn't, support 3D and dual-head. Without the official nVidia drivers, I wouldn't have a desktop. That SUSE automatically installs all of that for me is a big reason to stay loyal to it. c) YAST, I find it very easy to use and configure many aspects of my machine. For some aspects, there are better tools, but having everything "under one roof" is very useful. d) It just works... Well, apart from on my new laptop, which has an ATi Radeon Mobility X700 chip and the OSS Radeon driver cannot seem to control this chip and get it to display anything, I had to download and manually install the ATi fglrx driver, but on over 20 different machines I've installed SUSE on, this is the first time that SUSE hasn't just installed and worked... With my old laptop I tried SUSE, Ubuntu, Debian and a couple of others. SUSE installed, and worked. The rest stalled the installation at some point and required manual intervention to complete the install, something I wouldn't expect from an installation package from the mid 80's on. That said, Marcus Meissner from SUSE did respond that they are working with the likes of ATi and nVidia to solve these problems, so lets hope that they have a solution in time for 10.1 release.

I actually believe that we improve on the driver side rather than making it worse by allowing others to provide kernel modules that cleanly integrate into the system and survive kernel updates. This way, more parties can contribute kernel modules and not everything needs to go via the bottleneck of our kernel team.

It is a great goal, but the information that has trickled out through "unofficial" sources (i.e. there has been no official statement on how this will affect users, just a few lines in the IRC log on KPM packaging, and what appears like FUD from an AVM source) is causing uncertainty, and it gives the impression of: "We are going to do this, and to hell with whether it plunges SUSE back into the dark ages of hardware support in the short term." I'm sure this isn't what they mean, but without an official statement they are letting AVM and the likes implant FUD in this direction. The PR department for Novell/SUSE/openSUSE really need to get their act together in this. (And if openSUSE haven't assigned somebody/a team to act in this role, they really should think about it, releasing this sort of information in a controlled manner, and in a format that is understandable to the average user, is really important these days.) <snip> Dave

On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 05:51:07PM +0100, David Wright wrote:

I keep seeing this referred to, but I can't find any reference to it anywhere, http://en.opensuse.org/2006-02-07-status-meeting#SUSE_Linux_10.1_Status_.2F_...

I don't want to start ranting without knowing the facts, I also don't want to upgrade my dual-head set-up to 10.1 only to find I don't get any X afterwards...

The also read http://en.opensuse.org/2006-02-07-status-meeting-transcript from 20:09 on. Perhaps it would be nice to have links inside the transcript, so you can go to the part directly instead of browsing through it. houghi -- Missionary Position: The missionary on top.