[opensuse-factory] Looking outside the box
I've just send out to people that report to me the following request and like to share it with you so that you know what's going on if you see discussions starting and can look at the webpage as well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ openSUSE 10.3 is a really great release and I'd like to thank you for your participation on it. To take a break and some inspiration I'd like you to take some time now (let's say two days) and look at other current distributions and operating systems and check what they can do better, or how could we improve our products. Looking at operating systems, I consider the following most interesting but feel free to look at others as well: * Fedora 8 Test 3 * Ubuntu/Kubuntu 7.10 Beta * Mandriva 2008 * PCLinuxOS * Windows Vista * Mac OSX I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product. * Look at the installation, what do you like and hate? * Check the area you're most familiar in, e.g. printing, and see how it's integrated, e.g. configure a printer and print some documents. What is different compared to openSUSE 10.3? Where is the user experience different? * Use the machine for some work, play around with it. How do you like it? Please write down your experience on the openSUSE wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/Distro_Inspirations - and if you see things that you like to discuss, discuss them on the opensuse-factory mailing list. Try to evaluate the distribution from a desktop user perspective - and if you want to evaluate it differentely, please state it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Hello, On Oct 17 09:55 Andreas Jaeger wrote (shortened):
Check the area you're most familiar in, e.g. printing, ... Try to evaluate the distribution from a desktop user perspective
Perhaps I misunderstand it but from my experience it may lead to totally wrong results if an expert (i.e. where one is most familiar in) pretends to act like an average desktop user (i.e. an unexperienced user). For example printing: Peter Sikking (a usability expert) did some real research (i.e. with real average users). He wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------- I was curious to find out what users expectations are apart from get it on paper when they print. So Jan did some user testing. And guess what: there is no such thing as printing. It does not exist as a task, as a meaningful activity. One moment you decide to see it on paper, the next it rolls out of the printer. ---------------------------------------------------------------
From his "there is no such thing as printing" finding he is currently developing a printing dialog which should really match average users expectations. For the full story, see http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/labels/openPrinting.html
In contrast if I pretended to act like an average desktop user, I would never have found out that in reality "there is no such thing as printing". What I like to point out is that if an expert pretends to act like an average desktop user, the expert may act under totally wrong basic assumptions which must lead to totally wrong results. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Johannes Meixner
Hello,
On Oct 17 09:55 Andreas Jaeger wrote (shortened):
Check the area you're most familiar in, e.g. printing, ... Try to evaluate the distribution from a desktop user perspective
Perhaps I misunderstand it but from my experience it may lead to totally wrong results if an expert (i.e. where one is most familiar in) pretends to act like an average desktop user (i.e. an unexperienced user).
It's called "thinking outside of the box". So, please try to do it ;-)
For example printing:
Peter Sikking (a usability expert) did some real research (i.e. with real average users). He wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------- I was curious to find out what users expectations are apart from get it on paper when they print. So Jan did some user testing.
And guess what: there is no such thing as printing.
It does not exist as a task, as a meaningful activity. One moment you decide to see it on paper, the next it rolls out of the printer. --------------------------------------------------------------- From his "there is no such thing as printing" finding he is currently developing a printing dialog which should really match average users expectations. For the full story, see http://www.mmiworks.net/eng/publications/labels/openPrinting.html
In contrast if I pretended to act like an average desktop user, I would never have found out that in reality "there is no such thing as printing".
What I like to point out is that if an expert pretends to act like an average desktop user, the expert may act under totally wrong basic assumptions which must lead to totally wrong results.
That's why I asked to share the results and discuss them ;-). Yes, we can all learn from the usability experts - but we should not depend on them... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product.
Does it make sense to make an effort to survey people who have gone from openSUSE to another distro or OS (and that includes distro tourists, those fun folk who indiscriminately jump on new releases)? I don't know how much response the YaST survey got, but it might be a way to: - - Get feedback from people who made a conscious decision to go with something other than openSUSE - - Visibly reach out to the open source community at large I'd be happy to draft such a survey myself. Of course, it would subsequently require more than one man for spreading the word. Thoughts? - -- http://www.DonAssad.com jabber ID: josef.assad@gmail.com Please consider the environment; do you really need to print out this e-mail? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHFgMkFcf72sjD2+QRAurqAJ9lx6gwCrOPjIfjXCKVL/9Yyt4n+QCeMQz/ GqnXi+wqr9l7835LQHQZbV4= =fHys -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Josef Assad wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product.
Does it make sense to make an effort to survey people who have gone from openSUSE to another distro or OS (and that includes distro tourists, those fun folk who indiscriminately jump on new releases)? I don't know how much response the YaST survey got, but it might be a way to:
- - Get feedback from people who made a conscious decision to go with something other than openSUSE - - Visibly reach out to the open source community at large
I'd be happy to draft such a survey myself. Of course, it would subsequently require more than one man for spreading the word.
Thoughts?
Very good idea, articles on the likes of slashdot and linuxtoday. I have several of the distros quoted, but running in Virtualbox or KVM, but openSUSE is in regular use on 4 boxes. Despite the press it gets, openSUSE for me is the best for content as there is precious little else I need to alter or install compared to many, Mandriva being one exception. PCLinuxOS, Freespire (That Ubuntu root thingie again), Fedora 8 Beta, all decent enough and liveable with. Apart from the tools, Mandriva has also ran here faultlessly, but openSUSE is the preferred distro I install on other people's PC's, even for total newbies. I've also installed PCLinuxOS for someone who had a laptop with a P-III and lowish memory. Where Kubuntu (with KDE running) scored for me was on a P-III/333 MHZ laptop with 96M memory and 2M video, it was very responsive, whereas openSUSE was almost unuseable unless something like WindowMaker or FVWM2 was used instead of KDE. Things I didn't like about Kubuntu:- * That strange "root" thing, I couldn't see the logic. * Package management which gets so hyped up, you'd think it was nirvana. I couldn't get it to install skype, that was after a newbie asked me how to do it, I tried and failed just as he did. Certain things landed in dependency hell. Give me YaST or URPMI any day. openSUSE is a big and pretty all encompassing project and most reviewers seem to want something small, perhaps the 1 CD approach with carefully selected packages could go up against the likes of Kubuntu, emphasising the choice to reviewers and potential users - a sort of if you want it there is an openSUSE distro that covers it, you want small, get openSUSE, you want gigantic, get openSUSE. The one big question is why KDE on openSUSE is so treacle slow on a low spec box when compared to Kubuntu. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Josef Assad
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product.
Does it make sense to make an effort to survey people who have gone from openSUSE to another distro or OS (and that includes distro tourists, those fun folk who indiscriminately jump on new releases)? I don't know how much response the YaST survey got, but it might be a way to:
So far around 5000 people participated.
- Get feedback from people who made a conscious decision to go with something other than openSUSE - Visibly reach out to the open source community at large
I'd be happy to draft such a survey myself. Of course, it would subsequently require more than one man for spreading the word.
Thoughts?
Might be interesting as well - but this mail was asking developers who use openSUSE to get first hand experience with other systems, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, aj@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
Might be interesting as well - but this mail was asking developers who use openSUSE to get first hand experience with other systems,
Is it an idea to collect the initial feedback from reviewers in the different counties and post in this thread? I gusee most of you guys don't speak Norwegian for instance :-) Two genral areas that is good to focus on from my Norwegian point of view is: - Laptop's need to be focused as the premier desktop machines. I do not have factual numbers from sales sources, but seen from our company and the companies we are working for laptop vs. desktop is 3:1 Also in the advertisements it is laptops that are focused for private consumers. - Speed. Boot up speed, system install speed execution speed, sw install speed. Funktionality wise we have 99% of what we need. The OS is good. There is an abundance of applications. It needs attention to usability. Regards Birger IS/IT Manager and Senior Engineer Devoteam Telecom Norway www.devoteam.no --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Birger Kollstrand wrote:
Might be interesting as well - but this mail was asking developers who use openSUSE to get first hand experience with other systems,
Is it an idea to collect the initial feedback from reviewers in the different counties and post in this thread? I gusee most of you guys don't speak Norwegian for instance :-)
Two genral areas that is good to focus on from my Norwegian point of view is: - Laptop's need to be focused as the premier desktop machines. I do not have factual numbers from sales sources, but seen from our company and the companies we are working for laptop vs. desktop is 3:1 Also in the advertisements it is laptops that are focused for private consumers. - Speed. Boot up speed, system install speed execution speed, sw install speed.
Funktionality wise we have 99% of what we need. The OS is good. There is an abundance of applications. It needs attention to usability.
Regards Birger IS/IT Manager and Senior Engineer Devoteam Telecom Norway www.devoteam.no ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Be more specific about the usability issues. I have total newbies using 10.x for all tasks without problems. Even back at 8.0, a colleague who had only been on an intro to Unix class, borrowed my CD's and I got a call a few weeks later, expecting to be asked some tricky newbie questions, instead, he said his wife loved it. She was using it to conduct her photographic business, glad to be rid of the Windows crashes and lost work. At work, I used to demonstrate to colleagues how much more functional and usable SuSE was for our line of work, compared to Windows and Solaris workstations that were their staple OS's. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I've just send out to people that report to me the following request and like to share it with you so that you know what's going on if you see discussions starting and can look at the webpage as well.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ openSUSE 10.3 is a really great release and I'd like to thank you for your participation on it. To take a break and some inspiration I'd like you to take some time now (let's say two days) and look at other current distributions and operating systems and check what they can do better, or how could we improve our products.
Looking at operating systems, I consider the following most interesting but feel free to look at others as well: * Fedora 8 Test 3 * Ubuntu/Kubuntu 7.10 Beta * Mandriva 2008 * PCLinuxOS * Windows Vista * Mac OSX
I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product.
* Look at the installation, what do you like and hate?
* Check the area you're most familiar in, e.g. printing, and see how it's integrated, e.g. configure a printer and print some documents. What is different compared to openSUSE 10.3? Where is the user experience different?
* Use the machine for some work, play around with it. How do you like it?
Please write down your experience on the openSUSE wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/Distro_Inspirations - and if you see things that you like to discuss, discuss them on the opensuse-factory mailing list.
Try to evaluate the distribution from a desktop user perspective - and if you want to evaluate it differentely, please state it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andreas
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, Ubuntu has a thriving community of contributors. Every week I see a number of articles on how to do this or that on Ubuntu, usually appearing on linuxtoday and slashdot amongst others. One such article referred to me on this list did fix a problem I had with grub when I removed a dying hard drive which was /dev/sda and the previous /dev/sdb became /dev/sda. Many of the Ubuntu HOWTO articles address how to do stuff that is also applicable to openSUSE, though references throughout is about apt-get and dpkg. Many of the solutions to problems offered on this list would make good articles --- I must have a good look at the opeSUSE wiki, I'm sure there is noteworthy stuff that describes HOWTO on openSUSE, but the openSUSE angle never gets stressed enough. If you have Ubuntu and you want to know how to do something specific, there is almost always a result from a google search. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 17 October 2007 09:52:33 am Sid Boyce wrote:
I must have a good look at the opeSUSE wiki, I'm sure there is noteworthy stuff that describes HOWTO on openSUSE,
This will be good. If we would put so much time writing on wiki, as we use on mail lists the openSUSE wiki will be cited as reference on Linux, not only as good documented distro. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
On Wednesday 17 October 2007 09:52:33 am Sid Boyce wrote:
I must have a good look at the opeSUSE wiki, I'm sure there is noteworthy stuff that describes HOWTO on openSUSE,
This will be good. If we would put so much time writing on wiki, as we use on mail lists the openSUSE wiki will be cited as reference on Linux, not only as good documented distro.
I've never seen reference to the wiki in any reviews either. I quite often will email the authors to correct mis-statements in their articles. One of the most professional Linux writers I've come across was De-Ann Le Blanc, she set up a mailing list and a wiki which she referred to in her articles. She built up a small but excellent list which was consulted in advance of publishing an article, so she could get useful comments and suggestions, leading to well rounded articles. Just as an example of the Ubuntu train, my Inbox this morning contained yet another Ubuntu plug via an article on TechRepublic entitled "How to Install VMWare Sever on Ubuntu Linux", as if VMWare didn't do the job already and I see a number just about every day. Although they are mostly fluff and the equivalent of the store supplying a manual telling you how to use your key to open your door, it keeps their distro in the public eye constantly. I'm not suggesting openSUSE descends to publishing such crud, but a few choice articles would help. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2007-10-17 at 15:52 +0100, Sid Boyce wrote:
Andreas Jaeger wrote:
I've just send out to people that report to me the following request and like to share it with you so that you know what's going on if you see discussions starting and can look at the webpage as well.
* Ubuntu/Kubuntu 7.10 Beta
I suggest to install at least one of these products on real hardware and evaluate the distribution and try to get ideas for our next product.
* Look at the installation, what do you like and hate?
* Check the area you're most familiar in, e.g. printing, and see how it's integrated, e.g. configure a printer and print some documents. What is different compared to openSUSE 10.3? Where is the user experience different?
* Use the machine for some work, play around with it. How do you like it?
Please write down your experience on the openSUSE wiki at http://en.opensuse.org/Distro_Inspirations - and if you see things that you like to discuss, discuss them on the opensuse-factory mailing list.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Andreas
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post, Ubuntu has a thriving community of contributors. Every week I see a number of articles on how to do this or that on Ubuntu, usually appearing on linuxtoday and slashdot amongst others. One such article referred to me on this list did fix a problem I had with grub when I removed a dying hard drive which was /dev/sda and the previous /dev/sdb became /dev/sda. Many of the Ubuntu HOWTO articles address how to do stuff that is also applicable to openSUSE, though references throughout is about apt-get and dpkg. Many of the solutions to problems offered on this list would make good articles --- I must have a good look at the opeSUSE wiki, I'm sure there is noteworthy stuff that describes HOWTO on openSUSE, but the openSUSE angle never gets stressed enough. If you have Ubuntu and you want to know how to do something specific, there is almost always a result from a google search. Regards Sid.
Hi Andreas, list, At work, a projectleader forced us to abandon sles10 in favour of ubuntu. (just because he is using ubuntu at home and he's calling the shots, no real technical reason) It's true what Sid mentioned, it's got a thriving community. With its pro and cons: Yes, it has much more packages, but the turn-around-time is absolutely minimal: I rsync about 100GB every week. At work i have unlimited bandwith, no pain for me. And for the everage user who installs over the net neither. But for those who want/need to maintain their own install-server it's less positive (costly) On the other hand, latest versions of some packages can be found at ubuntu, but not even on the build server.... Second point: if you want to deploy systems with SuSE, the xml-files for autoyast / xen, works like a charm. Everybody can see that a lot of effort has been put in it. OTOH, creating & maintaining pre-seed-files for ubuntu is an absolute PITA: absolute picky/unforgiving about the syntax, no checking Definitely not production grade. Ubuntu needs at least several years before it reach the same stability/functionality for this point. Third point Ubuntu has a smaller footprint in disk/mem consumption. Having said that, i agree that 10.3 is a huge enhancement comparing with 10.1 and 10.2. As a matter of fact, a week ago someone asked for the iso's of 7.3, because he could run it with 64MB!!! I guess, that might be an unreachable target, but 10.1 was realy getting obesitas Final point, on the suse-wishlist i read the request of GFS. Marcus declined that, saying that you choose the use of ocfs2. Very well, but afaik, currently neither are on the media. GFS is available for debian/ubuntu and RedHat/Fedora/Centos/Aurora. (correct me if i'm wrong) Personally, i prefer SuSE, for it's stability --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet wrote:
Third point Ubuntu has a smaller footprint in disk/mem consumption. Having said that, i agree that 10.3 is a huge enhancement comparing with 10.1 and 10.2. As a matter of fact, a week ago someone asked for the iso's of 7.3, because he could run it with 64MB!!!
Yeah, that works - I still have a SUSE-7.1 system running in just 24Mb. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- http://www.spamchek.com/ - your spam is our business. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Thursday 2007-10-18 at 00:03 +0200, Hans Witvliet wrote:
10.1 and 10.2. As a matter of fact, a week ago someone asked for the iso's of 7.3, because he could run it with 64MB!!!
32. I'm running it on a 32MB machine. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFHFzQEtTMYHG2NR9URAltEAJ4iD42Z/TSII7qtyupFCVLxE2A13QCePAwP 2BcgDEP654XCzPXFX2xpwuQ= =v8lR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
The Thursday 2007-10-18 at 00:03 +0200, Hans Witvliet wrote:
10.1 and 10.2. As a matter of fact, a week ago someone asked for the iso's of 7.3, because he could run it with 64MB!!!
32. I'm running it on a 32MB machine.
I've installed 7.3 on a 486dx2/66MHz with 24 MByte RAM (didn't boot with 32 MByte) in the past. I've used it for performance tests of my Java Servlets (as slower the machine as higher is the presure to optimise the code ;-) ). -- Machs gut | http://www.iivs.de/schwinde/buerger/tremmel/ | http://packman.links2linux.de/ Manfred | http://www.knightsoft-net.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Hans Witvliet wrote:
Final point, on the suse-wishlist i read the request of GFS. Marcus declined that, saying that you choose the use of ocfs2. Very well, but afaik, currently neither are on the media.
We have been shipping OCFS2 (both the kernel parts and userland tools) for quite a while. GFS is not in the upstream kernel (and never will), and GFS2 is not yet considered fully production ready by its own developers -- it is still marked a technical preview in RHEL 5.1 even. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Inbound Product Mgmt T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (11)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Birger Kollstrand -
Carlos E. R. -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Hans Witvliet -
Johannes Meixner -
Josef Assad -
Manfred Tremmel -
Per Jessen -
Rajko M. -
Sid Boyce