[opensuse-factory] Lilo package removal?

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Tomas Chvatal

12 May 2016 12 May '16

09:24

Hello everyone, during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper. Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now. Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be. Cheers Tom [1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor/openSUSE:Factory:Staging :F?blocked=0&building=0&dispatching=0&finished=0&scheduled=0&signing=0& succeeded=0

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Michael Melcher

12 May 12 May

09:40

Hi Tomas, I would say go for the removal. As far as I remember LiLo can't boot EFI Setups and needs DOS Partitions. There's another Project called elilo [1] which can do the above. But since all Variants of *suse (Tumbleweed, Leap, SLE) use Grub as default anyway and don't offer LiLo during install, I don't see a reason to keep LiLo. Also the Development of LiLo seems to have stagnated. Last Release was in 2015-11-22 [2] Last Git Commit was in 2015-11-22 [3] [1] http://elilo.sourceforge.net/ [2] https://alioth.debian.org/projects/lilo/ [3] https://alioth.debian.org/scm/browser.php?group_id=100507 On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor/openSUSE:Factory:Staging :F?blocked=0&building=0&dispatching=0&finished=0&scheduled=0&signing=0& succeeded=0 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

09:46

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Michael Melcher wrote:

...

Hi Tomas,

I would say go for the removal. As far as I remember LiLo can't boot EFI Setups and needs DOS Partitions.

No, LILO does not need DOS partition.

...

There's another Project called elilo [1] which can do the above.

These are two entirely different software.

...

But since all Variants of *suse (Tumbleweed, Leap, SLE) use Grub as default anyway and don't offer LiLo during install, I don't see a reason to keep LiLo.

Not supporting GUI frontend for configuring does not mean it should not be supported on updates. We do not support configuring GRUB legacy with YaST either, still when you update system that was using GRUB legacy you continue to use it (including correct bootloader configuration update on kernel install/remove).

...

Also the Development of LiLo seems to have stagnated. Last Release was in 2015-11-22 [2] Last Git Commit was in 2015-11-22 [3]

And?

...

[1] http://elilo.sourceforge.net/ [2] https://alioth.debian.org/projects/lilo/ [3] https://alioth.debian.org/scm/browser.php?group_id=100507

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 11:24 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...
Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Cheers

Tom

[1] https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor/openSUSE:Factory:Staging :F?blocked=0&building=0&dispatching=0&finished=0&scheduled=0&signing=0& succeeded=0 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

13:09

Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Vit Pelcak

14:50

On 12.5.2016 15:09, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...
Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

Just out of curiosity... Why? Is there some reason you cannot switch to GRUB? -- Vit Pelcak vpelcak@suse.cz Team Lead in QA/L3/Maintenance SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. Lihovarska 1060/12 190 00 Prague Czech Republic

Per Jessen

15:07

Vit Pelcak wrote:

...

On 12.5.2016 15:09, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...
Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

Just out of curiosity... Why?

Never had any reason to switch, grub doesn't offer anything we need.

...

Is there some reason you cannot switch to GRUB?

No particular reason but time and effort. We probably have some scripts that only deal with lilo. Personally speaking, I find lilo easier to deal with, especially in situations where a machine ends up in a non-booting state. Maybe it's also just habit. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Pluskal

15:28

On čtvrtek 12. května 2016 17:07:56 CEST Per Jessen wrote:

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Vit Pelcak wrote:

...
On 12.5.2016 15:09, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...
Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

Just out of curiosity... Why?

Never had any reason to switch, grub doesn't offer anything we need.

...
Is there some reason you cannot switch to GRUB?

No particular reason but time and effort. We probably have some scripts that only deal with lilo.

Personally speaking, I find lilo easier to deal with, especially in situations where a machine ends up in a non-booting state. Maybe it's also just habit. Hello

there were several somehow simillar discussions here in past, I trust you understand that package and its dependencies need to be maintained by someone, someone has to spend some (perhaps small amount) of time, and to be honest spending some effort on maintaining something, that has several alternatives, just because someone never bothered to consider alternatives, despite this something being considered obsolete by most distributions seems not to be most reasonable usage of resources to me. Cheers Martin

Richard Brown

15:43

+1 - lilo isn't even in SLE 12 these days, it has no place in either openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap. On 12 May 2016 at 17:07, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
...
Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

Just out of curiosity... Why?

Never had any reason to switch, grub doesn't offer anything we need.

Now you're going to have a reason to switch.. grub will offer you something you need, a working bootloader ;)

...

...
Is there some reason you cannot switch to GRUB?

No particular reason but time and effort. We probably have some scripts that only deal with lilo.

Personally speaking, I find lilo easier to deal with, especially in situations where a machine ends up in a non-booting state. Maybe it's also just habit.

I understand that, but time and effort is mandatory in order to keep up with modern technology. lilo development totally ceased in December 2015, and it wasn't exactly keeping up with the requirements of our distribution before then. Without support for BTRFS (our default filesystem), GPT (the increasingly common disk layout), and RAID (a common feature), it really is time to say goodbye and to move on. I'd like to thank everyone who worked hard to keep it around as long as this, but it's time to move on. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Johannes Meixner

13 May 13 May

09:29

Hello, On May 12 17:43 Richard Brown wrote (excerpt):

...

lilo isn't even in SLE 12 these days, it has no place in either openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap.

I think openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap can contain many more packages than SLE, even "exotic" packages for "exotic" use cases - provided there is someone who actively maintains such packages. Usually someone who actively uses such a package should then also maintain it. When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE, would it then be possible to keep lilo in openSUSE regardless that lilo is outdated? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

09:44

On Friday 2016-05-13 11:29, Johannes Meixner wrote:

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When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE, would it then be possible to keep lilo in openSUSE regardless that lilo is outdated?

Yes. We have quite some old software, and as long as it builds and is sort of functional, it's ok. Like xbomb :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:48

Johannes Meixner wrote:

...

Hello,

On May 12 17:43 Richard Brown wrote (excerpt):

...
lilo isn't even in SLE 12 these days, it has no place in either openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap.

I think openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap can contain many more packages than SLE, even "exotic" packages for "exotic" use cases - provided there is someone who actively maintains such packages.

Usually someone who actively uses such a package should then also maintain it.

When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE,

I'll be happy to volunteer. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar

15:45

On Fri, 2016-05-13 at 11:48 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE,

I'll be happy to volunteer.

Glad to hear that - we're looking forward to get a fix for: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory:Staging:F/lilo vie the devel project soon then. Cheers, Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

16:01

On Friday 2016-05-13 17:45, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

On Fri, 2016-05-13 at 11:48 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

...

...
When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE,

I'll be happy to volunteer.

Glad to hear that - we're looking forward to get a fix for: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory:Staging:F/lilo

nothing provides device-mapper-32bit Hah. In kernel land, the instigator (lvm2) would have had to fix the breakage due to package rename (lilo), but what's the procedure in openSUSE land? :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar

16:07

On Fri, 2016-05-13 at 18:01 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

...
Glad to hear that - we're looking forward to get a fix for: https://build.opensuse.org/package/show/openSUSE:Factory:Staging:F/ lilo

nothing provides device-mapper-32bit

Hah. In kernel land, the instigator (lvm2) would have had to fix the breakage due to package rename (lilo), but what's the procedure in openSUSE land? :)

Lilo should never have required dev-mapper-32bit, but only the -devel- 32bit, which still exists... bringing in all the other deps is dev- mapper-devel-32bit's responsibility. The best that 'could' be done from a dev-mapper perspective is to obsolete the old name, providing it is a bit generic, as there was possily more in there than just the libaries. Cheers, Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

21 May 21 May

07:10

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Johannes Meixner wrote:

...
Hello,

On May 12 17:43 Richard Brown wrote (excerpt):

...
lilo isn't even in SLE 12 these days, it has no place in either openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap.

I think openSUSE Tumbleweed or Leap can contain many more packages than SLE, even "exotic" packages for "exotic" use cases - provided there is someone who actively maintains such packages.

Usually someone who actively uses such a package should then also maintain it.

When e.g. Per Jessen who still actively uses lilo would maintain lilo for openSUSE,

I'll be happy to volunteer.

SR 397161 -- Per Jessen, Zürich (13.5°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez

12 May 12 May

15:54

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

LILO development is finished and it will probably bitrot quickly. please use GRUB2 or systemd-boot (this one is just for UEFI though) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

16:14

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use.

LILO development is finished and it will probably bitrot quickly. please use GRUB2 or systemd-boot (this one is just for UEFI though)

Guys, I'm not really up to a discussion about why and why not, Tomas only asked if there were any lilo users left. If there is an easy solution to the build issue, I would like keep lilo in factory. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (12.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

L.A. Walsh

18:51

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

Per Jessen wrote:

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Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...
On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:09 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Please keep lilo. That's the only boot-manager we use. LILO development is finished and it will probably bitrot quickly. please use GRUB2 or systemd-boot (this one is just for UEFI though)

Guys, I'm not really up to a discussion about why and why not, Tomas only asked if there were any lilo users left. If there is an easy solution to the build issue, I would like keep lilo in factory.

I've tried grub before -- didn't work. lilo worked reliably during the year or two that grub couldn't handle journal'd file systems. It works in alot more situations than grub does and uses the same nomenclature as the kernel (/dev/sda1 or /dev/mapper/....). Grub has a non-consistent grammar w/the rest of the system. Lilo is also documented in how it works and as the default loader in the kernel documentation. It seems keeping the kernel defaults would make for being a good community member. Also if I remember correctly, doesn't grub require booting from an already running system like a ram-disk-img? Lilo doesn't and still allows the user the option of booting directly from disk -- which is what systemd recommends for boot speed. Getting from start of kernel execution to user-login prompt on a server (no GUI) in 30 seconds is still pretty much a constant, w/o SSD's. I also was regularly able to use grub with an attached serial cable as the console, vs. w/grub insisting on a GUI boot at the time and showing only a blank screen while one wondered what the machine was doing. Note: the server, w/12 cores, doesn't even have a graphics card slot (but does support on-board VGA). It's weird how bugs develop in other parts of the distro, so people use that as reasoning to get rid of packages that use them -- just like xfs was "dissed" as a boot-partition when grub was broken -- if people were using lilo -- there never was any problem -- and no need to switch root partitions. Last I looked, lilo was the only boot loader with it's source hosted and kept in sync with the kernel. Before removing lilo, you might want to check on the lkml about usage -- you might get a very different answer... -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

19:32

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

12.05.2016 21:51, L.A. Walsh пишет:

...

Also if I remember correctly, doesn't grub require booting from an already running system like a ram-disk-img?

No -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

19:32

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

On 12 May 2016 at 20:51, L.A. Walsh wrote:

...

Lilo is also documented in how it works and as the default loader in the kernel documentation.

No it is not https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/online/pages/man7/boot.7.html

...

Last I looked, lilo was the only boot loader with it's source hosted and kept in sync with the kernel.

This is false. LILO was hosted on alioth.debian.org It's development struggled for many years, disappearing for years, being restarted in 2010 before totally and utterly ceasing in December 2015 http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/ It is not hosted or kept in sync with the kernel, and most certainly never did during at least the last 5 years. Even if the above facts were not true, your belief that something should be followed because it is documented and hosted by the Linux Kernel project is also fundamentally flawed. btrfs is a filesystem hosted, documented, AND kept in sync with the Linux kernel https://btrfs.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page btrfs is the default filesystem of openSUSE lilo does not support btrfs So even if lilo development was not as dead as a dodo, there is still grounds to drop it based on Tomas' original post and all of the core functionality of the openSUSE distribution, including our default filesystem, which is not supported by lilo So, please, make sure the arguments you bring to this list are based on facts. Regards, Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bernhard Voelker

13 May 13 May

06:28

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

On 05/12/2016 09:32 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

btrfs is the default filesystem of openSUSE

lilo does not support btrfs

This is neither an argument pro or contra lilo, but the above logic doesn't feel right to me. Open source is based on diversity originating from the freedom to have it. Thus saying a) "A is standard", b) "B does not support A", and finally the unspoken consequence c) "B can be removed" is over-simplifying in my eyes. E.g. the KDE and GNOME desktops have ever been the standard for SUSE and openSUSE later on; yet, I've personally always used yet another $WINDOW_MANAGER. Similarly, I've personally never used btrfs, and I know quite a bunch of folks who didn't either. Lilo doesn't support RAID? Well, some guys wouldn't probably care. They're free to use it for every purpose they want. My point is: step c) in the above chain is wrong, because the question has not been on the spot. Some PKG is broken right now; therefore the only valid - open-source-way - question is whether that PKG is important enough for someone to fix and support it (even if it's just for another couple of years). In Per's case - I assume from his reply "[...] the only boot-manager we use" that the company he's working for uses lilo - that company will simply have to spend some effort - either for fixing lilo or for going away from it in their product. Nevertheless, openSUSE may choose to not include it in Factory anymore, and that lilo only continues living in some private repo or even a private/corporate OBS instance. Have a nice day, Berny -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

07:10

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

Bernhard Voelker wrote:

...

On 05/12/2016 09:32 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...
btrfs is the default filesystem of openSUSE

lilo does not support btrfs

This is neither an argument pro or contra lilo, but the above logic doesn't feel right to me. Open source is based on diversity originating from the freedom to have it. Thus saying a) "A is standard", b) "B does not support A", and finally the unspoken consequence c) "B can be removed" is over-simplifying in my eyes.

Yup. Try this one - a) dhcpv6-PD is standard b) wicked does not support dhcpv6-PD c) .....

...

Similarly, I've personally never used btrfs, and I know quite a bunch of folks who didn't either. Lilo doesn't support RAID?

I don't know where that comes from, I have some 20 systems booting with lilo from RAID1. RAID5 is not supported though.

...

In Per's case - I assume from his reply "[...] the only boot-manager we use" that the company he's working for uses lilo - that company will simply have to spend some effort - either for fixing lilo or for going away from it in their product. Nevertheless, openSUSE may choose to not include it in Factory anymore, and that lilo only continues living in some private repo or even a private/corporate OBS instance.

Yes, if openSUSE does not supply it, we will most likely just build it from source locally. It's extra hassle, but not a lot. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (10.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

08:59

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

On 13 May 2016 at 09:10, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Yup. Try this one -

a) dhcpv6-PD is standard b) wicked does not support dhcpv6-PD c) .....

Lets start by stating the obvious wicked has an active upstream (last commit 2 days ago) https://github.com/openSUSE/wicked wicked is actively maintained (last updated in Factory 5 days ago) https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/openSUSE:Factory/wicked/wicked.... Therefore, any issue is potentially resolvable, compared to lilo where upstream is dead and no maintainer has touched the package in Factory for well over a year. But lets dig a little deeper with your specific claim that "> dhcpv6-PD is standard" a standard which no other Linux network manager supports it seems Network Manager: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=593815 networkd: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1080 We have rudimentary support in dhcpcd, which is included in Tumbleweed. https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/IPv6#With_dhcpcd How about we have this discussion about lilo based on simple facts rather than making problems up to throw around as a distraction? lilo is currently not building correctly lilo is unmaintained upstream lilo is effectively unmaintained in openSUSE ---- at this point, in my opinion we have sufficient grounds for dropping lilo. These would need to be fixed in order to keep lilo in the distribution. But given these points were made right out of the gate in the thread and people were still advocating we keep lilo below are a few extra points worth considering to add to the case to remove it, or to challenge whoever wants to step up to take this orphaned pile of dead code. lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version. lilo cannot support our default filesystem, btrfs lilo cannot fully support increasingly common GPT partition tables lilo cannot fully support more complex RAID setups -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

09:47

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

Richard Brown wrote:

...

How about we have this discussion about lilo based on simple facts rather than making problems up to throw around as a distraction?

lilo is currently not building correctly lilo is unmaintained upstream lilo is effectively unmaintained in openSUSE

#1 according to Tomas' initial post, this is easily fixed, #2 mature is often indistinguishable from unmaintained #3 ISTR also upgrading lilo myself at some point - yes, in 2011. Quite a few updates since then too.

...

lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version. lilo cannot support our default filesystem, btrfs lilo cannot fully support increasingly common GPT partition tables lilo cannot fully support more complex RAID setups

You forgot to mention that YaST does not support lilo, and hasn't done for quite some time. Remarkably, despite all of that and even being broken, lilo continues to work very well. Let's just keep it until it actually stops working. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

18 May 18 May

14:13

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

Richard Brown wrote:

...

lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what and where these scripts are? They don't seem to be part of the lilo package. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (19.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Josef Reidinger

14:33

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

On Wed, 18 May 2016 16:13:40 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...

Richard Brown wrote:

...
lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what and where these scripts are? They don't seem to be part of the lilo package.

if it is on your pc available, then I recommend to try rpm -qf `which updatelilo` it should return from which rpm package it is installed Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

14:44

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

Josef Reidinger wrote:

...

On Wed, 18 May 2016 16:13:40 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...
Richard Brown wrote:

...
lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what and where these scripts are? They don't seem to be part of the lilo package.

if it is on your pc available, then I recommend to try rpm -qf `which updatelilo`

it should return from which rpm package it is installed

Sure, I'm aware of that, but it isn't installed on any of my systems. (10.3 to 13.2, Leap421). 'cnf' also doesn't find it. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andrei Borzenkov

14:47

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: Lilo package removal?

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Josef Reidinger wrote:

...
On Wed, 18 May 2016 16:13:40 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...
Richard Brown wrote:

...
lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what and where these scripts are? They don't seem to be part of the lilo package.

if it is on your pc available, then I recommend to try rpm -qf `which updatelilo`

it should return from which rpm package it is installed

Sure, I'm aware of that, but it isn't installed on any of my systems. (10.3 to 13.2, Leap421). 'cnf' also doesn't find it.

rpm -qla | grep updatelilo as last resort. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

15:14

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: where and what is updatelilo?

Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

...

On Wed, May 18, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

...
Josef Reidinger wrote:

...
On Wed, 18 May 2016 16:13:40 +0200 Per Jessen wrote:

...
Richard Brown wrote:

...
lilo is broken, the updatelilo scripts cannot find any kernel 3.x or 4.x version.

Can anyone enlighten me as to what and where these scripts are? They don't seem to be part of the lilo package.

if it is on your pc available, then I recommend to try rpm -qf `which updatelilo`

it should return from which rpm package it is installed

Sure, I'm aware of that, but it isn't installed on any of my systems. (10.3 to 13.2, Leap421). 'cnf' also doesn't find it.

rpm -qla | grep updatelilo

as last resort.

Thanks Andrei - didn't help much though. Nothing found on 10.3, 12.3, 13.1, leap421. I wonder if Richard might have meant "/usr/sbin/liloconfig" which is supplied by the lilo package and does seem to restrict itself to kernel 2.x only. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

15:16

New subject: [opensuse-factory] Re: where and what is updatelilo?

Per Jessen wrote:

...

I wonder if Richard might have meant "/usr/sbin/liloconfig" which is supplied by the lilo package and does seem to restrict itself to kernel 2.x only.

If updatelilo == liloconfig, it was fixed in the latest source. No more pulling of hair. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (22.1°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Martin Pluskal

12 May 12 May

14:20

On čtvrtek 12. května 2016 11:24:38 CEST Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Hello everyone,

during update and split of lvm2 package we detected failure [1] in lilo to build because of broken br/r set on device-mapper.

Now the easy solution is to replace that device-mapper-32bit with the proper split-out library and be done with it. But I would like to figure out if we have still some people using the lilo now.

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be. I am in favor of removing it - TW is not museum, and there are alternatives, which unlike lilo are supported.

Cheers Martin

Jiri Slaby

13 May 13 May

11:02

On 05/12/2016, 11:24 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

Installer does support only grub2 and lilo is quite archaic today. I would then propose to remove lilo from Factory instead of just fixing it and leaving be.

If there are volunteers, don't remove it. So I would change the question to: lilo is currently broken, if there is nobody to become a maintainer and to fix it in the next two weeks, lilo will be dropped. thanks, -- js suse labs

Johannes Kastl

19:10

On 13.05.16 13:02 Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

If there are volunteers, don't remove it. So I would change the question to: lilo is currently broken, if there is nobody to become a maintainer and to fix it in the next two weeks, lilo will be dropped.

This seems like a very reasonable solution. If nobody steps up, nobody seems to need it bad enough to have the urge to do something. If it is being maintained: Nice. Johannes

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17 participants

participants (17)

Andrei Borzenkov
Bernhard Voelker
Cristian Rodríguez
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
Jan Engelhardt
Jiri Slaby
Johannes Kastl
Johannes Meixner
Josef Reidinger
L.A. Walsh
Martin Pluskal
Martin Pluskal
Michael Melcher
Per Jessen
Richard Brown
Tomas Chvatal
Vit Pelcak