On 19 February 2018 at 18:37, Liam Proven
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100 Richard Brown
wrote: Hi Liam,
Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of those spins comparably.
Would it?
Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop works, right?
So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.
That would be a rather dramatic increase in our required test coverage.
How does changing the source medium mean a dramatic difference?
Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source medium, but adding another option. More installation media options, mean more chances of one of those having problems (either due to build or developer error), which means more testing is needed.
That would require a significant investment from more community testers, and probably more testing hardware. It would probably also increase the workload on both OBS and our Release Engineers (more things to go wrong with each media)
As I said, this is a task Ubuntu at least has outsourced to its community.
Your choice of terminology is confusing. openSUSE can't 'outsource' anything to it's community, openSUSE IS it's community. We're talking about what will the openSUSE community do in the openSUSE communities distributions. We don't have anyone else to give this problem to.
Inasmuch as Gecko Linux exists at all, so has SUSE -- no?
No - Gecko Linux is a derivative of openSUSE, utilising our Projects free and open licensed software, to distribute our software with additional software in a way which we believe to be inconsistent with the licenses and patents involved. They have no involvement with the openSUSE project. They do nothing on our behalf. And asking them to do anything on our behalf would potentially be problematic for the openSUSE Project from a legal standpoint.
I think Ubuntu and Fedora can get away with it because they don't try to run their Projects in a way where the community shape it's very nature. Their corporate overlords can declare a default and all the rest have to deal with it.
I do not see that at all, no.
Well you seem to think that the openSUSE community can outsource itself unto itself, so I think it's safe to say that we both have a very different perspective on community dynamics.
I see the Ubuntu and Fedora way as being highly inefficient - forcing the fragmentation of their community and creating double work - Our model requires us to find ways of working together - which has proven to be of significant benefit to our KDE & GNOME offerings in particular.
TBH, the different desktop communities are fragmented _anyway_.
I find the GNOME 3 tools almost unusable myself. Not only the desktop, but the new accessory apps, with their missing title bars, missing toolbars, weird merged things that you can't middle-click to send to back, etc.
KDE is a world unto itself, with its own versions of everything. When it reproduces functionality from Windows, it does it in such a way as to require 3-4× as many mouse clicks, or misses out whole areas of functionality.
Actually, come to that, Cinnamon and Maté and KDE _all_ miss out significant chunks of functionality from the OS they're copying. Oddly, the lightweight ones, Xfce and LXDE, are the ones that keep the stuff I personally really want.
Your above statements neglect the great work our awesome openSUSE KDE and openSUSE GNOME teams do working together. They may work on different software that suits different peoples sensibilities, but the importance is that when working together as part of _openSUSE_, our community contributors do an awesome job of bridging the gaps between themselves and their various upstreams. I concede that I, myself, in particular often don't do a good enough job talking about that, but I certainly can't let someone saying the opposite stand unchallenged.
Sure, people move between them, people change allegiances, but there is already a _huge_ amount of duplicated effort between them all.
Nothing SUSE does or doesn't do will change that.
Why are you talking about SUSE Linux GmbH/SUSE LLC suddenly?
But even if I did agree with that approach, the fact is that for openSUSE I would prefer not open a discussion about focusing on a single desktop environment first
AIUI, SLE only supports a single desktop: GNOME 3. There's no option for anything else, including KDE.
So SUSE has _already_ made that choice.
SUSE is not openSUSE. Their choices are not openSUSE's choices. openSUSE is an independent open source project which SUSE contributes to as peers and partners - not controllers.
All indications are that no DE in openSUSE has a majority of our userbase (eg. https://twitter.com/sysrich/status/947169171632205826 )
Really? I'd say the answer to that poll is a pretty clear indication of the favoured desktop. There are just 2, all the others are a rounding error (by definition, <=10%). And of the 2, one has a 25% lead.
The fates of countries have swung on less, as you and I discussed in Brussels.
So yes, I'd call that _very_ clear, myself.
So you'd piss off the majority of volunteers and users to favour the most popular minority choice? I think we have very different mindsets when it comes to what makes a healthy community. One of openSUSE's strengths is we do not cater to just the needs of the largest groups in our community, but we strive to create an environment where anyone can help shape openSUSE into what they need.
But no, no spins for us please..I don't like that model at all.
And that's your right and that's fine. It does work, though, and it does make the installation process simpler with fewer questions. I think it arguably could _simplify_ testing. Does that not merit examination?
It doesn't simplify testing, unless you throw away parts you decide you no longer want to test. That seems counterproductive, especially when the issue at hand is a DE which no longer fits on our installation media, but is still 100% fully tested and fully supported by the openSUSE Project. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org