On Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 01:44:31PM -0000, Chris Howells wrote:
I don't study GNVQ IT myself, but the final straw came when I heard that the school had just bought VB to teach their students (they were origignally going to teach C++ or Delphi but couldn't afford the site licenses.
The best way to learn programming IMHO is unix shell. If it must be on a Windows platform then they could use perl, or for an oo language python or Java.
Sorry, but after more than 20 years teaching programming in Schools and Colleges from the youngest to degree level, these would not 'cut the mustard' Students of all ages want their programs to look nice. They will spend hours making a simple program like a metri/imperial convertor look the part. Like it or not, it is Windows that has made them expect this. As a C programmer I would like them to learn C, followed by C++ but they would be discouraged very quickly by what appear to be drab programs. VB or Delphi are the only real options. (C Builder would be better, but for some reason it has never caught on as I would personally like it to) Kylix has just arrived, and this may change things a bit. Even at advanced level GNVQ students are not expected to produce fully operating GUIs as well as fully working programs, only the latter. If a student of mine can produce a program that does what it sets out to do, and the interface is generated by a RAD like VB they will get all of the marks available. If they produce a cute interface with no program behind it, or they drop out through becoming bogged down in the detail, or they fail to complete the task - they will fail the Unit.
VB is a ticket to nowhere - it's platform dependent & it's unlike any proper oo or procedural language so the skills learnt aren't really transferable to other languages, it will also inevitably get dumped in favour of .NET.
I totally agree, however students would not succeed with other languages as they would not complete the work to such a high standard. As an aside, although I think GUI RADs are the only way to teach programming in schools and colleges, on a personal level, it does stick in my throat a bit to teach structured top-down programming, and then use a system that is so bottom up it untrue, however I believe students MUST be able to succeed in any task they are set, hence the doublethink.
All the languages I've mentioned will give you a head start if you go onto uni to do cs.
Sorry must differ here. Recently surveying 10 Unis around the Midlands none demand that potential undergrads had studied programming - the usual comment is 'we'll teach them all the programming they need to know' First languages were a very mixed bunch including Modula2 Pascal ADA C and even VB! As a professional teacher I need to use the tools that will teach students in the most successful way. I think that there are many reasons to go open source, but the balance must always be between available expertise, cost and efficacy. VB is very much more effective as a teaching tool, well known and there are many good teaching resources available, so the cost may be overbalanced. We pay for the tool that works best, not the cheapest, or indeed the one that is ideologically the superior. I have introduced Linux resources into every college and school I have workind during the last 10 years - but because they were the best for the job, not because I wanted to break any company's grip on the market. Remember that a market is a place where people buy - and until there is a exact alternative - they will continue to buy. I suggest that we get back to the original idea of this thread and try to put together a distro that will enable schools to MANAGE their computer networks as easily as with RM Connect. With 400+ machines on our network we rebuild up to 20 a week - not because they are totally broken, but because with limited technician time it is quicker and easier to do this than to troubleshoot a 'flaky' machine. 30 minutes after putting in a disk and hitting reset the system is back up with all software installed and it is available to use totally from then on. Until an alternative system can do that we cannot expect hard pressed schools to even consider Linux. Climbs down off soapbox and settles down to do some real work on my Linuxbox - but that is as a consultant, not in school!
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