Mailinglist Archive: opensuse (1445 mails)

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Re: [opensuse] Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 03:50:12PM +0100, C wrote:
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 15:34, Lars Müller <lmuelle@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Apparently you haven't had to field calls from confused beginner users
who are wondering what they did wrong after installing an application.

Beginning users I'm not allowing to call YaST at all.  They even don't
know that the user with the most power is named root.

So, you support them every single time they want to update?

No. I enabled automatic updates. Yes, that works quite well.

and add an application?

They all are getting a default KDE install. If that doesn't offer all
they need - what do people need these days more than a web browser? - I
file bug reports or feature requests.

Can I give my "users" your phone number? I field
support for users in Australia, Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands,
Sweden and and and.. (I've got friends scattered all over the place)

If you pay enough then I'm going to do this. Sure. While being a cheap
boy in general for such SM fun I'm taking a lot per hour. ;)

They don't know they have root for the most part.. they know that if
they want to add an application, they use their user password.

If that works for you. Well, then it works.

Well, if they're root on their box, then it's quite eady to change the
default.  It's possible from the GUI which you call obscure.  Well, your
point of view.

You (as in experienced users, not you specifically) are used to and
comfortable with the YaST tools for editing system configurations...
they are not.. to say "just go change the option" is silly... you
don't tell a user to go tweak their Windows Registry any more than you
tell these same users to go twiddle the oepnSUSE system
configurations. That's a "stay away from there or you might break it"
place.

a) The YaST sysconfig editor is less terrible than modifing the registry
of Microsoft products.

b) They have to do this _one_ time.

Call this two commands and be happy.

/usr/sbin/sysconf_addword -r /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT close
/usr/sbin/sysconf_addword /etc/sysconfig/yast2 PKGMGR_ACTION_AT_EXIT summary

If you consider this approach sucking lame goto the
file_a_feature_request section of this thread.

This one issue I see over and over... "why did my software installer
disappear?" or... "why do I always have to restart the software
installer?"

If that's the case feel free to feed https://features.openSUSE.org/  If
non has done this in the past.  As I don't care you'll neither get a
plus or minus from me.

Best is you branch YaST, change the default and start to smack the YaST
devs around.  I expect they'll love you. :)

I'm not going to branch YaST... like you.. limited time.

All our time is limited. That's why I consider no longer to watse it on
this kind of threads. The outcome is at the end a bit to small
compared to the invested time.

This was discusses ad-nasueum when the change was made. The reasons
for making the change make sense for experienced users and don't make
sense for in-experienced users.... but that fact was railroaded over
during the discussion.

Thanks for the pointer to the archive of the discussion! Is this some
kind of argument hiding or are you this busy?

One thing that was requested back during the horse flogging was that
there be an option added to the software manager... nothing ever came
of it because people are understandably busy. So in the end, the
default was changed to what makes sense for experienced users....

The current approach makes even sense to the beginner user. They
install a package and that's it. There are arguments to both approaches
for beginners and advanced users.

and
the rest of use are left standing there trying to explain to Joe and
Jane User how to navigate the scary sysconfig applet in YaST.

Yeah, I see you standing there one hour each week to explain your users
again and again how hard the YaST developers are making it to you. ;)

Hey, how about coming to the next openSUSE conference and you and me we
smack them all as hard as possible?

I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in
some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user... this
is one prime example. We made a change to a default that may not have
been the best one - depending on who your user is... an experienced
developer and long time Linux user, or someone who is making their
first steps into Linux... or doesn't know enough to be confident
enough to poke the dragon lurking under the surface of their KDE or
Gnome (or LXDE ect etc) desktop

Instead of wrinting the reply you could have filed the feature request,
branched the YaST code, brewed me a fresh coffe or tea, cleaned your
flat or even better mine.

But a reply to the list is much more fun. Well, then the YaST software
installer stays how it is. Till the pain is big enough to anyone else.

Yours look quite small right now. And mine if for this topic not even
existing.

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 04:27:35PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
C wrote:

I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in
some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...

+1.

Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:

Please indicate user experience level

1) beginner
2) experienced
3) professional

Having the information would at least mean module writers could take
it
into account when choosing defaults and options.

Any additional question while the install contradicts the intention of
the initial issue presented as part of this thread. Making is easier to
beginners.

Sorry, I don't have any time to write this either. :-(

But you have the time to follow this discussion and reply. Strange.

Cheers,

Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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