On Mon November 14 2005 11:47, Andre Truter wrote:
On 11/14/05, Curtis Rey <crey@san.rr.com> wrote:
Why would I stay with SuSE if it morphs so far away from what originally attracted me to the distro in the first place? The bottom line for me is two fold. The primary reason I chose SuSE was because the way the product was put together, from the kernel up to the desktop. Secondly, the other thing that attracted me to SuSE was it's community. If the community is effectively cut out of the picture in deference to the corporate paradigms, I
OK, I am confused here. How is Novell cutting out the community here?
To me it rather looks like they are pulling the community closer with OpenSUSE.
Well, one might regard the fact that Novell opening a previously closed beta-test program to the general users base "pulling the community closer". And in fact this is a direct advent of this move. However, I see this as a cost cutting factor as well. It brings more eyes to the code and lessens the burden on the internal devel team. So, if it becomes obvious that one might want to strengthen and speed up code development, the old method was to hire more code hacks - this costs money! On the otherhand if you have limited fiscal resources but still have a desire to beef up the code/devel process what better way than to get more people to identify bugs and problems than getting free labor? Hence, the opening up of the beta program is two fold - it does make user feel more empowered, but I fear this is an aside to the real motivation. The primary reason for this is to gain better product development without the ensuing cost traditionally associated with "hiring" more people to accomplish the task - F/OSS people aren't the only ones with a reputation for wanting FREE BEER (there, I went and said those two words). You do bring up a good point though. If one looks at the subject matter on the beta mail list, one may take note that the majority of post on said mail list focus on server issues. The gui is actually not that common an issue by comparison. But to further prove my point there is another mailing list for support that is entirely focused on KDE - suse-kde<at>suse.com. There may be a list for gnome as well, but at the time I signed up for the gui support mail lists it wasn't there to subscribe to - because KDE was the preferred desktop and if not for certain SuSE users that provided alternative packages for gnome it would be less functional than it presently is.
Did SuSE include the community in thier corporate desicions before Novell bought them? If not, then why are people angry at Novell for making corporate desicions without consulting the community?
No, SuSE did not ask the community about it's preference when it was considering the Novell offer. One would be that it belonged to SuSE and hence it was simply a matter of "what to do with my company", rather than "gee I wonder how our user base is going to react?". But I don't think that this is entirely the same situation. SuSE went to great lengths to reassure their user base that they would still have the same distro they signed onto. Now this may not be true any longer, or at least this is the fear. What I think happened is they chose to do this because it made sense in someones mind. But I also think they may have miscalculated the response. I don't think they thought this would be such an issue - or at least not to the extent that it appears to have taken. What do think the reaction would be if Novell said they are no longer supporting ALSA in deference to OSS (Open Source Sound) drivers and protocols??? Not positive to say the least IMHO. It seems a a double edged sword in this case. Novell opens beta program with the end result of pulling the user base closer in, and then turns around and proceeds to alienate a large swath of their user base by proclaiming that their server/enterprise products and the corporate desktop product (NLD) will no longer support the formerly ubiquitous desktop environment by announcing the GNOME over KDE decision? I don't get it!!! Would be the first time "I didn't get it", but it seems like a large portion of other people don't get it either. Hence my statement about cutting out the community. This was done overtly. I was the result of being out of touch with the majority of your user base on the promise of gain a contract or two. But then what the hell do I know?
Or am I misunderstanding something here?
[..]
The bottom line is this. As GNOME was secondary to KDE previously, KDE is apparently slated to fall to the type of piece meal devel that I've seen with GNOME in previous SuSE releases.
What makes you think that KDE development support will be discontinued? Did Novell make any such announcements or anything?
I would categorize this into an "ease of transition" move. We've all heard it said before - "people use at home what they use at work". In otherwords, If you're introduced to SuSE with GNOME at work and decide to use it at home, will this new user base have a preference for GNOME or KDE. I would wager they would stay with what they know. And in this scenario that would unmistakenly be GNOME. They're familiar and comfortable. Nothing wrong with that overall. But, perception is reality on Wall Street and this would marginalize KDE IMHO. As an aside, I can't help but see a trend to emulate RH - and as previously stated if I want an RH'esque OS I would be using... RH! First they acclimate user/admin to GNOME and at the same time, if they use NLD they acclimate their user/client base to the same. It isn't a far reach to presume that KDE's days as a viable and well supported desktop would be numbered - at least where strong devel and support were concernded. I think that this is the underlying concern that has prompted such a fervent and negative reaction to this announcement.
I can fully understand that people might get a bit edgy about the news that SLES and NLD will be focussing on GNOME, because it is a fairly big and important decision. But I definately don't see it as the end of SUSE.
I think people may fear what I addressed earlier. Sure, in the future, it will bear the name SuSE. But, will it be recognizable as SuSE in the same manner. What I'm trying to point out is that in corporate hands SuSE could easily morph into something that is not really what many have come to know and use. Will it be better or worse? Only time will tell. The fact that SuSE will change over time is a given. But much of SuSE was driven by it's users base. In large U.S. corporations the term user base is more mercurial than one might assume. Is the term "user base" to mean "those at the grass roots level" or those that are "product channel partners and clients"... aka - other large corporations? Let's be real here. Both you and I know the real bucks aren't in guys like myself that use SuSE as a home and SOHO solution. The place where the real money lays is in the large corporate contracts for installation and product support. But, SuSE belongs to Novell now and they'd be nuts not to try to cater to the latter market (the large corps) - this is where the money is and why I think this decision was made. However, I personally don't have to like it and if SuSE does morph into something I "personally" find less desirable then, true to the F/OSS/Linux philosophy, I will move to something else - I would just prefer, if I did find it necessary to migrate to another distro, to find one that I had some familiarity with - hence my stance on any possible future contributions from the like of Mr Mantel - et al. I know there work and find it preferable.
I am very glad to see that Novell took note of the reaction of the cumminuty. Maybe this should tell you something. Maybe we are not dealing with the same Novell as 10 years ago. Maybe they learnt a thing or two over time and maybe they will not drive SUSE into the ground.
One can only hope. I truely hope that Novell isn't the same company it was ten years ago. We'll just have to see how it unfolds.
So far Novell has done a lot to give SUSE a boost in the corporate world. Novell also opened SUSE to the community.
How about just waiting and seeing what Novell will do.
I think the outcry was a good thing as it made Novell aware of the community and it's influence. I still think that most people overreacted. I definately don't think it is time to start looking for orther distro's. I think it is worth hanging around to see how Novell handles this.
I'm not looking for other distro - per se. And I think the outcry is a positive think, at least overtly. But the question is not about our (user base) priorities as much as it's a question of what Novell's priorities are. Afterall It's their Linux company, not ours. I just hope they know what they're doing. Cheers, Curtis. -- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them!