From: Bernd Felsche
Well, Bernd, could you have possibly been any more rude ?
Rude? I wasn't being rude. Nor did I intend to be rude. I merely explained the status quo based on my limited experience. Basically that certification can leave you woefully ill-equipped to takle real world problems because the certification processes focus on the acquisition of sufficient knowledge to gain certification. In about 20 years of Unix administration, programming, etc I've seldom encountered a "textbook problem". It is only by an understanding of the underlying concepts and paying very close attention to what's being said by the users that the vast majority of problems get solved quickly and permanently.
In the spring of '96, after going on a string of interviews and being told "If only you knew Novell", I decided to take the plunge. I asked the bank manager very nicely to lend me the GBP7000 to do a CNE Fast Track course. This he did. I took that class as an investment in myself. It subsequently lead to a great job at a huge national company, and is directly responsible for my being here in the US now, through a contact I made whilst in the CNE classes.
From 1977 to 1982 I studied at University and the only worthwhile thing I learnt was that I knew almost nothing. Where did the Bachelor's degree get me? Nowhere for at least a year.
My pursuit of these certifications is to gain knowledge. I believe that Russell is trying to do the same thing. His intention is to teach a class of people to use and care for a computing platform that the majority of people on this list love. We should be encouraging him to do this, not giving him a hard time. If there are predetermined courses out there, with an exam at the end of them, why shouldn't he use them ? Why should he have to write his own course, which would not be appreciated or recognised by the IT industry once his students have completed it?
If you, Bernd, do not have the patience, will power or dedication to do what it takes to earn these certifications, do not denegrate those of us who have sweated many long hours in their pursuit, and those of us who continue this quest for knowledge.
I do have the patience, the diligence and the drive to learn these things for myself. I have had no formal training in "computing" or any certification of any sort therein. I've taught myself about computers, programming, system administration, relational databases, networking, firewalls, etc as part of doing my job. Don't assume that I don't have a certification out of laziness, etc.. I am a "lazy" person only because I don't like to do things which aren't necessary from my perspective. I would rather be doing other, directly-productive things with my time. I do not denegrate those who've undertaken certification processes in an honourable manner. It's the certifications in themselves which are frequently questionable because they are abused so easily. As such, any candidate application resting solely or largely on such certification(s) is to me as useful as one without. I know a (not small) number people with some sort of certification, employed to perform a job which ought to be within their scope of ability given the nominal certification. But they can be useless or even counter-productive in such roles. As to using the methods and materials of existing certification programmes, I'd be wary of my right to use them in an environment where I was paid for the provision of similar services. <p>> -----Original Message-----
From: suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse.com [mailto:suse-linux-e-return-41286-stuart=yorkshirepudding.com@lists.suse .com]On Behalf Of Bernd Felsche
dukeofchurchill tapped away at the keyboard with:
Has anyone looked into or been certified with any of the available Linux Certifications ( SAIR, Redhat, other)? If so how through were they? How useful were they when applying for a UNIX Sys Admin position? Would you do it again?
Such certificates are only worthwhile if you're trying to penetrate a wall of human-resource people. If I were to employ somebody, I'd be disinclined to hire anybody with such a certificate and little else to show.
Perhaps I'm just cynical about the process of certification where the applicant has to know how to pass the certification process.
I am thinking of using a program such as Sair to instruct Home School High School students on Unix System Administration.
Russell Boyd
I have no idea what's in that programme.
If it doesn't involve a groups of six or so students where one is assigned the task of administrator (on a rotating basis) and the others act as clueless jerks (one of the "jerks" being the team manager) asking for the impossible whilst doing their best to screw up their small network of random "workstations" and peripherals; then the programme falls short of any practical application.
Those aware of the painful reality of the suggested environment have my sympathy. If you can't write your own 5 chapters (at least) of BOFH, then you're too "green". :-)
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