Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (72 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] 2019-04-02 board meeting minutes

Am Freitag, 19. April 2019, 15:53:17 CEST schrieb Lars Vogdt:
Am 2019-04-17 22:13, schrieb Christian Boltz:
We have an offer from Heinlein / mailbox org to make
mail addresses real mailboxes.

Do our members want this? (Feedback on opensuse-project and @oSC

So someone will do real paperwork and count all the feedback? - Why is
it necessary to collect feedback in this form of the 70's?

I'd be happy to get feedback from _all_ our members ;-) - but in
practise I expected to get maybe 10 or 20 answers, and reality in this
discussion seems to confirm it ;-)

Sorry for the sarcasm (and thanks that at least the members get asked
and someone took the hard work on him), but this sounds too scary for
an IT community to ignore. ;-)


But back to the question: you currently have a 'no' from me.

Not because I don't support the idea in general, but your question is
way to general for me to support it without further information.

* What does a mailbox cost? - Who pays for it and what does this
person/company get in return?
* What is included in the concrete offer?
* What does this mean in regards to GDPR? - What data is synced
between openSUSE and the Heinlein company?
* What happens, if a user don't want an Email? Can he get an alias (or
even nothing) instead?
* Who is responsible for security (alone this simple question includes
a lot of areas)?
* Will the board be able to block the user from using his Email (as
some users were IMHO blocked in the past from other openSUSE
resources like mailing lists or OBS)?
* What happens, if a member wants to get deleted? - Or only wants his
Email setup deleted? Who is the contact in this case?
* What happens, if a member violates rules from
* What happens, if a user dies / does not react any longer?
* Who is the technical contact? - An openSUSE Hero or someone from
* How long is this offer from Heinlein provided?
* What happens, if Heinlein switches their mind and want to get paid?
* ... (I've of course more questions, but I guess you understand that
most of them have to do with the relationships between an openSUSE
member, the openSUSE community/board/heroes and Heinlein as sponsor)

Answering all these questions might be a lot of work - and you might
end up with not implementing it at all if the majority of your users
is either against it or abstain from it.

Thanks for playing [1] devil's advocate ;-) and all these questions.

I'll give you a collective answer:

We have this offer since quite a while (you probably remember it), but
for various reasons working on it was delayed. Now we wanted to tell our
members about it before we spend (or possibly waste, if nobody wants it)
time on it. This also means that there are still some open questions
we'll have to check and answer.

To name a few things (note that this reflects my personal opinion
because we didn't discuss these details in the board or heroes yet)
- aliases will stay the default, the mailbox should be opt-in
(everything else would lead to "dead mailboxes" with unread-forever
- Heinlein / should become the primary mail server for (= DNS MX entry) because that would give us better spam
filtering/blocking (sorry to say that, but the spam filter on
mx* is far from perfect)
- obviously, this also means Heinlein will need/get a list of all mail addresses and their alias target.
(In theory we could avoid giving them the alias targets, but that
would mean to a) not have their spam filter or b) to continue to have
the aliases on mx* and relaying the mails over it or
c) setting up a mailserver in the openSUSE infrastructure that does
the alias forwarding. I have to admit that I dislike all of these
options because they add an additional and IMHO superfluous step.)

I know this doesn't answer all your questions - which isn't surprising
because we still have to discuss and decide about them ;-)

With that last sentence in mind, I like to get the following four
answers first, before starting to discuss the other questions above:

1) What is the concrete benefit of providing a (free?) mailbox for
every openSUSE member?

- aliases / forwarding can break thanks to SPF, leading to mail loss
(SPF is broken by design, but sadly even some big mail providers use
- all members can finally _send_ mails using their o.o mail address,
not only the lucky ones with own servers or providers that allow
sending with "foreign" sender addresses

(Do we get more members? Does Heinlein get more users/user data
for marketing?)

I know Per Heinlein personally, and I'm quite sure he or his company
does not look for new "marketing victims" ;-)

And no, I don't really expect that we get more members just because we
start to offer mailboxes.

2) How many members currently complain about "missing mailboxes" at
all? (all that paperwork for just one member?)

I remember several people asked for real mailboxes and/or being able to
send mails using the o.o address and/or reported problems with the alias
like SPF fun. (Sorry, no exact numbers. There's clearly more than one,
but I'm too lazy to go through the ticket archive to count them ;-)

3) And what would this member offer in return if she gets such a
(not really fair, as members normally did already enough for
but if she wants it, what in turn would she offer for all this
extra work?)

We won't put that as a "price tag" on the mailboxes or any other
membership perks because they are a "thank you" for the contributions.
Of course - and independent from mailboxes, IRC cloak etc. - additional
contributions are always welcome ;-)

(Speaking of IRC cloaks: whoever is a member and didn't get his/her IRC
cloak yet, please send a mail with your IRC nickname and openSUSE
username to admin (at)

4) Who will implement the needed scripts or do the manual work to
manage the members mailboxes?
(and does this lucky guy already know about this?)

Another "detail" we didn't discuss yet - but if needed, I'm willing to
help with it. Having better spam blocking (in my case I'm especially
interested in admin@o.o) is more than worth it, and more fun than
deleting ticket spam all the time ;-)


Christian Boltz

[1] I know you - and wonder if I should say "being devil's advocate"
instead ;-)
Isn't suse moving to systemd? There is very little ascii text
about that,
Yes, it's completely irrelevant, because systemd does not read
mail (yet). [> Linda Walsh and Jan Engelhardt in opensuse-factory]

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