Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (88 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE 13.1 - Preparation for Evergreen
On 16/12/15 01:01, Richard Brown wrote:
On 15 December 2015 at 14:09, Basil Chupin <blchupin@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
[pruned]


quote

It goes against what I think is best for the Project


unquote


And there's the rub.

You are not elected by the Community members to the Board.

You are an unelected appointee by SUSE to the OpenSUSE Community Board
and as such represent in the first instance SUSE's interests.
You are correct that I am appointed to my position as Chairman of the
openSUSE Board by SUSE

But you seem to forget the fact that I was an elected member of the
Board since 2013 - first stepping in after Pascal stepped down as the
next highest candidate in the previous elections, then directly
elected to the Board by the community at the end of 2013.

Thank you for this piece of information.

Unfortunately I have never heard of you being an elected member of the
Board until you just mentioned it. (Goes to show what an impact your
presence caused in that period :-) .)


My 'interests' are, have been, and will continue to be, first and
foremost openSUSEs.

My role as Chairman includes communicating those interests to SUSE,
and communicating SUSE's interests to the community.

Beyond that, I'm still a contributor to this project with 10 years of
experience with this project, and I think it's perfectly reasonable
for me to contribute in all the ways available to me.

But of course.


There are other Board members who are elected, and have been elected,
and yet you seem to have usurped the task of them speaking for
themselves. Do you speak on all of their behalves? I (?we) do not know.
If it is the case -- that you have been chosen to speak on all their
behalves -- then it would be very nice to know that this is the case and
you should have begun by stating -- or at this stage, which is not too
late, to advise here -- that you speak on behalf of all the members of
the Board.
When I speak on behalf of the openSUSE Board, I make sure my signature
says 'on behalf of the openSUSE Board'

When I speak 'as Chairman' (ie. when I am conveying SUSE's interests
in my formal role as Chairman), I make sure my email says 'Chairman of
the openSUSE Board'

So, as Chairman of the Board you convey SUSE's interests re openSUSE.

Whether or not you have a signature at the end of your message is
immaterial -- and besides, I at least, have never seen such a signature
at the end of your posts. But, again, this is immaterial.


Otherwise, I'm Richard, the openSUSE contributor.

Right ... "... Richard, the openSUSE contributor".


However, if I recall correctly, you did mention in one of your posts
that you were expressing your own opinion - and on matters which appear
to be out of your main sphere of responsibility (apart that is from
representing SUSE's interests): the latest wiki
(https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board) states that you are, "....
involved as a maintainer of GNOME and the openSUSE branding packages,
and working on packaging Spacewalk for openSUSE. ".

While you are quite welcome to express your opinions as an ordinary user
of openSUSE you nevertheless have referred to yourself as the chairman
of the Board (see above) which throws a totally different perspective on
what you express and therefore what people conclude from your utterings.
If people are only allowed to talk about what is 'among their main
sphere of responsibility'.. then I think there would be a dramatically
reduced selection of topics which you would be entitled to talk about
Basil..

I'm a contributor, I'm interested in the future of this Project and a
great many aspects of it.. It's probably one reason why the community
elected me to the Board and why SUSE appointed me as Chairman


Ah, the old "I'm a contributor but you are not" crap argument.

I am a USER, repeat a USER, and therefore a contributor to the project.

For whom are people spending their time programming openSUSE? Have a
guess....

If you say, "For openSUSE users who then check it out to see if what it
contains is good enough to be used in the commercial version called SLE"
then you get a cigar; but if you don't then you back to the back of the
dummies queue.

As a USER I don't want to see my preferred operating system go down the
proverbial gurgler just because some programmer(s) isn't able to
separate the wheat from the chaff.


I work hard to coordinate and collaborate with those already working
in those areas, learn from them, try to help them out (like I did in
this thread conveying Wolfgangs intention to give up Ownership of
Evergreen in November). I'd like to see more community members take a
similar approach, rather than the somewhat limiting mindset of 'oh,
someone else is already taking care of/will take care of that'

I will repeat what I stated earlier: this doesn't appear to have been a
problem in the past when everyone worked harmoniously with everyone else.


Now, I do not have an intimate -- or otherwise -- knowledge of the
workings of openSUSE or its relationship with SUSE and how the distro is
"put together" and to date I, or anyone else I suspect, have not had to
ask about this relationship because the progress of openSUSE has been
harmonious until now, but to me it seems that your job description with
SUSE, that of being employed as SUSE's "QA Engineer", confines you to
worrying about quality assurance -- the pre-activity to quality control
-- but not to how, say, repositories are managed and whether openSUSE
13.2 should be followed by openSUSE 13.3 or whether fonts used in
openSUSE should be XXXX or YYYY.
My job as QA Engineer at SUSE has little to do with my contributions
to openSUSE - besides that my experience in openSUSE has helped me
push for adoption of openQA inside SUSE for testing of SLE, which is
now leading to an increase in contributions from SUSE to openQA, which
is also benefiting openSUSE

Since joining SUSE 2 years ago, as a QA Engineer, I have had the
pleasure of learning a LOT about how a distribution is put together. I
don't consider myself an 'expert' on the topic, but I do consider
myself knowledgeable, and I don't see any reason why I should keep
that knowledge to myself just because I learnt it working for SUSE.

Besides that, my work on filing bugs, dealing with the branding
package, helping the GNOME team, attempting (and failing) to package
Spacewalk were all started long before I joined SUSE 2 years ago.

And I intend to continue contributing in as many different means as I
can..just last week for example me and a few others were building JeOS
images for Leap..

I suggest that you make a copy of this to be included in your CV to be
used at some later date -- "By Christ that sounds impressive!" as a
friend of mine (an estate agent) would say when reading the description
of a property which was advertised for sale :-) .


To me the wherefore of, say, how repositories should be managed is the
responsibility of Stephan Kulow and Stephan alone.
Stephan Kulow is the Release Manager of openSUSE. He has broad
responsibilities, but I do not think they extend to the Build Targets
of Repositories managed by other Teams.

Ahem... You "... do not think ..." that Stephan's responsibilities
extend to Build Targets of Repositories?!

Don't you think that it is about time that you found out what his
responsibilities are? Afterall, you have been with SUSE for some 2 years
now, as you state above -- not to mention that you are also the
*Chairman* of the Board?

(Sheesh! SUSE owners appointed you as Chairman and you don't even know
what Stephan's responsibilities are?! Sorry, but I sometimes fear for
the future of openSUSE :'( .)

I am sorry for pointing this out but, just as you just stated what you
did, others are quite in their rights to come to the conclusion that YOU
don't have a bloody clue what YOUR job is all about. See my point or not?


This kind of thing can, and
will always be, down to the individual choices of the maintainers in
question - but as a Project we can talk about such things here,
because it's a good place to debate, get a feel for the Projects
opinion, consider a broader perspective..and maybe even form
consensuses out of it

Debating and exchanging ideas is always most helpful. Doing so results
in being educated.



What fonts should be used in openSUSE is a matter for the Community to
decide and not for SUSE's appointee to the Board to waste time on as the
"QA engineer".
It's a good thing I didn't work on the Fonts topic during my work
hours then, isn't it?

A silly question, wot? How would I, or anyone, know whether you did or
did not work on them when you were at work? But I -- and I suspect
others -- was confronted -- when I have never had heard of you -- by
your "arguments" for your selection of fonts for Leap of Faith.

Who had given a tinker's cuss about the fonts until your posts at that time?

Looking up the Wikipedia about fonts produced results which showed that
fonts were split -- for want of a better description -- into 2 groups:
those which worked fine in newspaper/printed hardcopy and those which
were to be reproduced on a computer screen. But then suddenly along came
Richard with his "selection"....... But anyway.....


What about all the other people (who happen to work for SUSE or not)
who actually finished the Font revamp after I started the discussion?


OK, I'll bite. What about them?



The community did decide, and I'm part of that community; Or is your
intention to suggest I should contribute to the openSUSE Project less
now that I happen to work for SUSE than I have for the past 10 years?

The immediate quote which comes to mind here is, "You might think that,
I couldn't possibly comment.", Francis Urquhart, _House of Cards_, but
no, stating this quote out loud would be ingenuous of me.

I am a member of the BROADER Community and not one of the members of the
pseudo "community" 'club' artificially created for the purposes of
simply having its members being allowed to vote for Board members and,
therefore, have no influence over what the latter's preferences are. But
as for me, personally, I would prefer you to stay as you seem to have
taken onboard a few comments expressed in this thread -- not to mention
that life may prove dull without you :-) .


The above, of course, is based on my own experience gained some years
ago when working with computer programmers and computer programs
designed to achieve an effective and gainful result but things may have
changed in most recent years and so I can only state that what I just
expressed is my opinion and is not meant to be offensive, discourteous,
impertinent, rude or offending.
And of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and perhaps with this
additional information you realise that much of what you say seems to
be based on incorrect information or assumptions.

Every day of my life is a new learning experience and which I always
looks forward to when I wake in the morning.

To this point I have learnt a few things and considering that enough
time has passed (4 days) since my response for people to comment on what
has been written in this thread I find that the only succinct statement
was made 4 days ago by Michal Kubecek:

quote

As long as I'm concerned about _how_ you are doing your job, I'm going
to criticize it. And given the way you are communicating recently, I'm
concerned a lot. So I'm going to criticize you, learn to live with it.
Or, better, try to learn from the feedback you get.


unquote

Interesting that none of your Board member colleagues have bothered to
comment -- but then it is an election period afterall.


I have also been asked in private messages why am I wasting my time
commenting on what you write.

An excellent question to which my answer would have to be: there are
some matters which just have to be commented on :-) .

But having considered those privately expressed comments I find that
there is little or no profit in continuing with commenting.



BC


--
Using openSUSE 13.2, KDE 4.14.9 & kernel 4.3.3-2 on a system with-
AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor
16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM
Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX660 GPU


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