Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (88 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE 13.1 - Preparation for Evergreen
  • From: Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:21:19 +0100
  • Message-id: <CAA0b23y=KPaZiq-xUFc92vUSS75Q+5Khdw+r8aKgFBoVGUyd5Q@mail.gmail.com>
On 14 December 2015 at 07:51, Michal Kubecek <mkubecek@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Sunday 13 of December 2015 15:38:20 Richard Brown wrote:

Please be confident that they will only do it until November 2016.
Wolfgang has made things quite clear that he will NOT be doing it
after that date, and has given the strong impression that he is only
doing it upto that date out of his feelings of obligation based on his
previous statements.

Can you share a reference? Last thing I've seen from him on the topic
was this:

1. Do we want to do 13.1 longer as originally announced (November
2016)?

I wouldn't promise anything else right now myself. We have to see
the level of contribution to Evergreen/13.1 first.

on November 12. That's very different from what you claim.

I'll quote this all in chronological order

== Wolfgang announcing Evergreen 13.1 in 2013 ==

On 26 August 2013 at 11:34, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello,

The openSUSE Evergreen team would like to announce that openSUSE 13.1
will be the next Evergreen release. This means that openSUSE 13.1 will
continue to be supplied with security updates and important bugfixes
until it has had a total life time of at least three years.

13.1 was released in November 2013. 'total life time of at least three
years' would be November 2016

== Wolfgang when discussing the idea of Leap ==

On 1 May 2015 at 23:26, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
So indeed the plan currently is unchanged from Evergreen perspective.
But then again, the outcome of all this discussion and new movement will
probably have a direct impact on openSUSE 13.1 Evergreen.

Because in case openSUSE really moves to a longer maintained release
with a SLES base the extra Evergreen project might not be required anymore.
So let's imagine we would decide (and get delivered) an openSUSE 13.3
with a SLES base which is maintained by SUSE and the openSUSE community
for 3 years (at least) it could happen that next Evergreen would be
maintained for a shorter time with a recommendation to update to 13.3
and go from there.
So basically if the goals of Evergreen are finally delivered by openSUSE
next it's probably not required anymore. (Or said differently: Evergreen
project and openSUSE could directly join forces with SUSE to deliver a
distro which would count as LTS.)
But the Evergreen discussion can really start only after the openSUSE
vision is clear and for the time being in case required Evergreen will
eventually start with 13.1 maintenance.

On 9 May 2015 at 19:10, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In a perfect world we probably want three distributions:
Tumbleweed
openSUSE as of today/yesterday
openSUSE "LTS"

At least I would want this (I could live w/o Tumbleweed actually).

But this is totally out of the scope of we can maintain at the moment.
(Actually not that totally because with Evergreen we have such a thing
but it suffers from too few contributors.)

Some people mentioned Evergreen. Why not think about using the man
power going into evergreen (that AFAIK is a user driven group
effort) for this LTS release. But make it 'more official'?

as Greg (and myself earlier) pointed out, Evergreen has very limited
manpower. But indeed we are watching closely (and I'm participating in)
the discussion since the outcome will directly affect the future of
Evergreen.
As we are all volunteers and have our own requirements currently bundled
in Evergreen we most likely will join forces for creating a different
kind of openSUSE _if_ it fulfills our needs. Richard's proposal comes
pretty close to mine at least. A lot of details to be sorted out though.

== Wolfgang clarifying things in November ==

On 16 November 2015 at 21:21, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The lifetimes given on that page (November 2016) is what was agreed in
the core Evergreen team quite some time ago. This is pretty much a
commitment we agreed on.

13.1 is currently committed until November 2016 (3 years). The Evergreen
project always aimed at a minimal lifetime of three years in total.
The decision to "only" do the three years was based on the fact that we
never had to commit anything like this so long time in advance. So the
current committed lifetime was set to a minimum.
The real lifetime now will depend on the interests of contributors. We
already got indications that kernel maintenance could be done for a
longer time.
To commit to a longer lifetime at this moment I'd like to hear at least
2-3 trusted people to step up saying they'll keep it running for a
certain timeframe.

This might be true. Still what Richard wrote is true. I'll and I have
put some energy into making Leap a viable replacement for Evergreen. For
my own usecase this goal is achieved. In contrast to my earlier plans
I'll now migrate everything to 42.1 instead of 13.1 since I do not need
any 32bit system anymore.
I'll stick to my earlier commitment and will do what is needed to
deliver on 13.1 but do not expect that much energy from myself beyond
this commitment.
But this is not a problem because it seems there is so much demand on
32bit support that there must be many people willing to help us with
that. And I'm happy to give people all information required to maintain
Evergreen. I even will help and most likely contribute for my set of
packages I'm maintainer for in any case.

NOBODY monitors 11.4 packages for security issues anymore. Some people
might still submit single pieces but 11.4 has to be taken as vulnerable
by default meanwhile. This is the big difference betweenn "accepting
contributions" and "someone is actively checking every publically
announced security issue and checks if 11.4 is affected and eventually
fixes it".

The problem with all that is: There was a plan. And this plan was
announced long ago. Honestly personally I find it more important to
stick to that plan were people are counting on instead switching plans now.

So my opinion: We will follow the plan and the given commitments. If
people are stepping up to make 13.2 an Evergreen release, that is
perfectly fine. In the beginning we had two subsequent streams as well.
It's not doubling the efforts in most cases. (Sometimes it might.)

A simple summary of all I have written above:
Just find the people joining the Evergreen effort interested in 13.2 or
13.1 and then we can do a replanning.
Feel free to find volunteers in the community and we'll make it work.

And as this is a huge pile of quotes let me extract the most important
part again for clarification

On 16 November 2015 at 21:21, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'll stick to my earlier commitment and will do what is needed to
deliver on 13.1 but do not expect that much energy from myself beyond
this commitment.

I have also spoken to Wolfgang directly, and I am confident that he
has no intention of supporting Evergreen beyond the announced
supported timeframe

All the time people complain about the lack of active contributors. And
then when a group of people makes the effort and contribute, openSUSE
Board chairman goes a long way to actively discourage potential users
and contributors of the project. I find such approach really disturbing.

I would prefer the former - and I strongly hope that the views presented
by Richard Brown in this discussion are only his personal and do not
represent the official position of openSUSE project.

The views I am presenting are nothing more then the concise repetition
of the currently stated decisions by the established contributors to
the Evergreen project

My role as a part of the openSUSE Board gives me the responsibility of
"Facilitating communication with all areas of the community"

That is precisely what I am doing here - making it clear that with
Wolfgang's currently stated position the Evergreen project is unlikely
to continue without finding new contributors to replace him

Don't shoot the messenger, and as you clearly didn't know about this
situation, maybe your energies would be better spent in a direction
other than criticising me for doing my job? :)

Regards,

Richard
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