Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (240 mails)

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[opensuse-project] Re: Bugzilla account creation.
  • From: Jim Henderson <hendersj@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2012 18:19:55 +0000 (UTC)
  • Message-id: <k067oa$jip$2@dough.gmane.org>
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 05:34:29 -0500, Rajko wrote:

On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 02:42:10 +0000 (UTC)
Jim Henderson <hendersj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

...
But Rajko, that's still anecdotal, not hard data. It's guessing there
must be a problem because of how it's designed.

It is not that much guessing.

But it is guessing that we're losing people. If we could look at how
many times the page is actually abandoned rather than completed, that's
not a guess.

There are principles how to design human interface, which are developed
by the people that understand how human body works. After visiting a lot
of web pages, and reading a lot on topics described in http://useit.com
I tend to guess much lesser then those that didn't.

In other words when you see roof under the house, and tell that is
wrong, is that a guess that there is a problem, just because how it is
designed :)

Sure, but if people still are completing the form, then it's not as big
of an issue as other things and can be prioritized lower.

On the other hand, when you see
http://www.yproxy.com/blog/quality-control-on-name-brand-electronics/ do
you see a problem instantly? Maybe.

I do. It is what I was busy with for years, and having an eye for bad
solder made my life much easier. There are details that will not attract
attention of casual viewer, but will be considered important by informed
person.

Sure, but that's something where you can see the immediate result of the
effect. Yes, it looks like poor solder joints, but the thing that
prompted the individual to look was an actual measurable problem.

If the picture hadn't given out, he wouldn't even have gone looking.

Back, to registration and login pages.
In this case I'm just informed viewer. Professional web and UI designer
will find far more mistakes.

Anyone with professional training can find things they'd improve in
something they look at. That's generally a matter of an informed
opinion, but I've known professionals who had deep knowledge of matters
who have had different opinions about how to proceed.

That's not to say there isn't a problem, but as a friend of mine who
works for Google is fond of saying, "the plural of 'anecdote' is not
'data'."

And what your friend at Google tells about this tower:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaning_Tower_of_Pisa When you see that
building, do you think for a second that is a good design? It is
hundreds years old and it still stands, like our registration process.
Not that anyone sane will climb up, but it stands.

Except that we've got a large number of people who have "climbed up" and
the vast majority haven't complained about it.

On the forums alone, we have currently 69,105 registered members -
which means we have that many people who have gone through the
registration process for the forums alone - and once that's done, they
have access to Bugzilla, the wiki, and everything else in the openSUSE
project that requires authentication. Even SUSE Studio and OBS.

All fine.
Try to read this again:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-08/msg00014.html it is
not the same experience on different sites. Some have no chance to see
openSUSE registration page.

There again, matter of opinion, though. If we perfect the registration
process to the anecdotal standards desired, we'll still be able to go to
other sites and say "hey, our experience isn't the same as on different
sites". On the forums, for example, people complain about not being able
to edit their posts for an indefinite period of time. Others point out
that the reason for this because we gate the messages to NNTP, which is
something else that other sites don't do - but we do to provide an
additional access method for those who prefer that interface.

Significantly less than 1% of those people have complained about the
process it took to get registered - and the openSUSE forums have always
used this registration process since their inception with the forum
merge project.

Check again. It is not the same. Now forums have access to shorter
openSUSE registration form. Also, check number of registration before
and after switch.

What "switch" are you talking about?

If I have about 70,000 people who have registered through the existing
registration system and only a few (I think maybe 3 or 4 total in the
forums themselves) have complained, that's statistically a very small
number who have complained about the issue.

...
Who should know about this to expect fix in another few days?
(Let me guess, bugzilla.novell.com :)

While there are still issues being fought with regards to login
performance and whatnot, I would expect the prioritization of something
that has generally been seen to work well (or at least not cause a lot
of complaints for all those who have gone through the process).

First I still need answer on who should know?
It seems that all that can bring problem to solution don't read this
list.

I would start with the openSUSE team at SUSE.

Then me and complains.

Did I complained when I went trough?
No.

How many times I visited registration page before I finally decided to
go trough?
At least twice asking myself:"Why in the hell they need so much?" and
left.

How many people we lose each day that will be good contributors, but
never manage to go tough?
No one can tell. Those that go away don't talk.

Right, but those who complete the process but were unhappy with it are
very likely to complain. I've done this myself with some things - go
ahead and complete the transaction (whatever it is), and then provide
feedback saying "yes, I got in, but the process was very convoluted/
onerous/etc".

What is impact of one person not signing up?
IMHO, big. More people will contribute more, improve quality and attract
more other contributors, like avalanche.

Note that I'm not saying it's perfect by any stretch. I'm just saying
that relative to the other issues that have been under investigation, a
working (if even somewhat convoluted) registration process is
relatively "small potatoes".

I guess that you did project management and put small easy to fix issues
ahead of bigger that need much more time to fix. There is always end of
the day when it is not reasonable to start big tasks, but too much time
to chat.

Yes, I did project management - and sometimes quick fixes can be put in
place quickly. But at the same time, (as I say below), it's one thing to
assume how much work is involved, it's another thing to know how much is
actually involved based on how the systems work.

Over the years, I've learned that things are rarely as simple as they
look.

This one is really about 1 hour of work for skilled person, if we don't
count administration overhead. Keeping that unresolved until more
pressing stuff is addressed will keep small issue(s) working against us.

For someone who doesn't know how a system is implemented, works, or what
the requirements were at the time of implementation, sure, it can look
like it's only an hour of work. The reality of that is often (not
always) different.

I wouldn't expect it to be "fixed" in a short period of time because it
is at least working, if not what some (myself included) would call
"efficient".

It is more then efficiency.
It favors people that don't think twice before they jump.

Which is something that should be measurable - and once we have a
measurement, we can know if it's worth spending time on.

Jim

--
Regards, Rajko



--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

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