Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (422 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-project] Time to decide: 11.4 or 12.0?
  • From: Jos Poortvliet <jospoortvliet@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:37:18 +0100
  • Message-id: <201012202237.18704.jospoortvliet@xxxxxxxxx>
On Monday 20 December 2010 22:16:56 Nelson Marques wrote:
*my last attempt to explain the (too long, esp during a meeting)
discussion we had on #opensuse-marketing

You said we had to make developers tell the marketing team what new
features were in their projects.

Based on the fact that the devels are the ones who should provide that
information for several reasons, being the most important of them, the
fact that they would be the best persons to highlight the great
advancements on their projects and how they would benefit more.

You proposed that us dig Changelogs (how many on the marketing team
have the tech know-how to read a Changelog and select the best
features?), making that like our own decision and use openFATE (which
I stated it sucked for that purpose) because openFATE translates the
users needs which is awesome (and I'm thankful for it to happen that
way), on the other side, openFATE might not translate the true
potential implementations and innovations present on the release.

I told you we could try and some would answer (like GNOME and KDE teams)
but most wouldn't (kernel, Xorg). As is the case in most FOSS
communities - developers care mostly about code, marketing isn't that
interesting. Something I understand.

I did got a positive answer from GNOME and psankar offered his right
promptly to work on the Feature list. Also on the GNOME meeting
Vincent Untz made very clear that there are some generic guidelines
proposed by the GNOME Project to support the release of GNOME shell
across distributions. I see many people and random comments about
working together, this initiative from GNOME places us a opportunity
to accomplish it.

You were the one who tossed away the opportunity of developers to
participate on this by stating that KDE would never go for it.

That's why I said re-read the discussion. I said it didn't work in KDE and it
wouldn't work here - at least not to the extend that the marketing team can
just watch the features flow in. I explicitly stated that both the GNOME and
the KDE team in openSUSE would probably do this, as I know the people involved
understand the value of marketing AND are willing to put in time.

Many other developers care less, or rather, have other priorities.

I won't go further into your mail(s), you have last word.

your words, not mine. And to me, this clearly indicates a conflict of
interests, while openSUSE should be your highest priority for this
matter, not what KDE thinks. If they wanted to do it... cool it
would've been a poorer feature rich list... but that doesn't give you
or anyone else the right to measure all other projects and cripple the
chance for participation. In fact you doubled the work I was already
pushing on the wiki.

Instead of promoting collaborative work within reasonable times, you
suggested that the mass of the work would be done at FOSCOM in a
meeting, thus increasing the amount of funding for it to happen and
striking out people who can't attend FOSCOM because they have
$dayjobs. I've sorry but you complicated unnecessarily this issue
which triggered my 'bail out' on openSUSE Marketing because I don't
see that you or Bryen are leading efforts in a real maner to improve
things and choose the easier way just to get 'things done'. For me
it's far more important how things are done and that a proper method
can be implemented than just scrapping stuff on the last minute.

I'm sorry but we will never agree on this kind of things... either we
push things into a better scenario where we can be more attractive or
we will always have problems expanding the community to 'normal

And I told you I tried it during my KDE marketing times, and got - well,
somewhere, but not to the point where the marketing team didn't have to
spend quite some time bothering developers again and again and reading
changelogs to find the major features.

As project, and specially YOU as Community Leader should've escalated
those subjects for Boosts, Board and even press on sponsors to make it
happen that way, not because I want, but because that was an
opportunity to improve to a more consistent workflow with methodology
that would allow us to highlight the developers work and their
concerns, thus improving the communication efficiency towards our
audiences by serving better our developers concerns and their projects
within openSUSE.

I don't find this hard as several people I've contacted promptly
offered their help (example provided above). I tried to call you upon
reason, highlighting that if you were unable to provide a favourable
outcome and contact boosters/board to help us on this issue, instead
you tossed everything away explaining KDE would never do it... That
raised to me a lot of questions, specially when to me it became clear
you are trying to use a 'short' group of people to accomplish a task
during a certain moment on a certain location to fix something that
could be accomplished without so much efforts in budget and involving
a larger work force.

I'm totally against having Marketing to work a release in a time frame
of 1 month and 2 weeks as you will do.

You repeated that the world had to be like you wanted it to be. I
repeated it wasn't.

First you demonized the devs and other contributors by giving the
answer that they would never provide a list of features, now you
demonize me. Within a year or two you should make a balance of how
many new people are actually working for openSUSE Marketing, then
maybe you will realize that we're not attractive for contributors...

In short, I advocated realism based on earlier experiences. If you call
that bias and are now scared of the future of GNOME in openSUSE, by all
means, be scared. I doubt anything will change your mind.

And I advocated realism based on recent experiences (ex: GNOME).
Thanks for stopping innovation (which might not suit you because you
are more concerned about leveraging your position than taking openSUSE
Marketing to excel and provide a realist work flow. But maybe you're
goal is all about getting work done only on events at a far more
expandable costs for our sponsors). Thanks for your 'earlier
experience', that gives quite a good pointers on what we can expect
for the future and why we don't improve.

By the way, what part of your experience supports that you say to a
contributor things like: "they will laugh on your face"... I wouldn't
mind that the whole community would laugh on my face as long as they
could provide us the material we need to better support their projects
in openSUSE marketing.
Maybe a bit more of respect for those who don't earn their living from
FOSS and still give their time without asking nothing in return trying
to help?

By the way, you also demonized the community with that sentence. No I
didnt felt offended personally.

BTW I have a strong suspicion that you either don't read other ppl's
comments at all OR choose to ignore random words in there. Otherwise I
have no idea how you could get to the point of worrying about GNOME vs
KDE after the discussion we had at marketing.

"Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil." - Nicollo Machiavelli.
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