Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-project (783 mails)

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[opensuse-project] Re: openFATE feature 306967, KDE default
  • From: Jim Henderson <hendersj@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 17:30:22 +0000 (UTC)
  • Message-id: <h54ife$qu0$5@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Sun, 02 Aug 2009 09:10:35 +0200, Lubos Lunak wrote:

Your mail is quite easy to answer by turning all your arguments around,
just see:

On Sunday 02 of August 2009, Jim Henderson wrote:
I would suggest that if the ordering of the options (or the inclusion
of GNOME in the main selection list) alienated some KDE users, then
those users who were alienated need to get a thicker skin and stop
worrying

And that is why we cannot aknowledge the simple fact that the reality
is that
the majority of users do select that option anyway? It's ok to ask the
KDE majority to get thicker skin, but it's not ok to ask the same of the
GNOME minority?

I have a pretty thick skin. I don't mind there being a choice for KDE
available.

about the fact that the installation screen provides a *choice*.

As a GNOME user, I'm not bothered by the inclusion of KDE 3.5 and KDE
4.0 in the installation. People want to use one of those releases,
that's cool, it's not my preference, so I'm not inclined to select it
as the primary interface at installation time.

And it's the same the other way around. I don't think most users are
bothered
by the fact that GNOME is provided in the screen too. The point is, it
is not provided as a choice, it is required as a choice, where the
preference is obvious. This is a clear message for and against the
communities.

I would disagree, it's not "required" that anyone select GNOME or KDE as
it is now.

What I'm really curious about is what it is that those who *are*
threatened by the inclusion of a GNOME option (clearly not all KDE
users are threatened by this, so we're talking about what I sincerely
hope is a small group of vocal people) are so afraid of with the
inclusion of GNOME

I think it is rather clear by now that openSUSE currently does not see
the
benefits of Will's proposal to focus openSUSE on KDE. And even that
proposal has nothing against the inclusion of GNOME, so please stop the
usual we-poor-minority-are-being-bullied rubbish.

Um, I don't believe I said that anywhere, Lubos. Please don't put words
in my mouth. At the same time, I'd have to point out that it is a vocal
minority of KDE users who are engaging in this "we-poor-minority-are-
being-bullied" rubbish because KDE isn't the only or the default choice.

or the lack of a pre-selection being made for KDE. Are they afraid
that users might decide to use something other than KDE and that will
somehow cause resource allocation to the KDE project (which is not
controlled by Novell *or* openSUSE) to be diminished?

Sending repeated messages "you are welcome, but not really as much as
others"
in the KDE direction is something that has negative impact on KDE
contributors. And this is controlled by openSUSE or Novell.

Not "not really as much as others" - but "no more than others".

If you don't want GNOME as a choice (or want a pre-selected KDE
installation), then there's an answer to that: Use SUSE Studio to
create your own installation media that has what you want in it.

Or how about you use SUSE Studio to create your own installation media
that
pretends that KDE is not the majority of users and give that to GNOME
users without offending the KDE ones?

Because the distribution as it is today meets the needs of both
communities (ie, the majority of KDE users and the GNOME users). The
only group it's not "meeting the needs of" is the minority of KDE users
who think that it should be the only or default choice.

I would far rather see the project's focus not be diverted by what is
essentially a religious debate about which desktop is better, because
neither is better in an absolute manner, because users have different
needs. "Better" for me is not "better" for other users.

I'm not talking about which desktop is better. I'm talking about the
fact
that we try to grow our community and at the same time we repeatedly
shoot ourselves in the foot by alienating our biggest part of the
existing community.

By increasing the community by adding in people from the GNOME in an
inclusive way. Sorry, I don't see that as "shooting ourselves in the
foot", but rather saying to the KDE users who don't want there to be any
other choice "you win, you can have it your way" and letting that vocal
minority drive the direction of the project.

*That* will drive people away from the project more than anything.

What's next, we've got a vocal minority who think Beagle and other Mono-
based apps are resource hogs and shouldn't be included...so we dump
Mono? I know, we've also got a group of people who think sendmail/
postfix (take your pick) is the end-all be-all of MTAs so we should not
include an option for the other one. The emacs crowd would rather that
vi and joe not be made avaialable, so now we're an emacs only
distribution in order to keep the emacs hackers happy?

(Yes, reducto ad absurdum, specifically to make a point).

Jim

--
Jim Henderson
Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

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