Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-features (434 mails)

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[openFATE 307495] GNOME default
  • From: fate_noreply@xxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 16:07:36 +0000 (GMT)
  • Message-id: <feature-307495-18@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Feature changed by: Robert Davies (robopensuse)
Feature #307495, revision 18
Title: GNOME default

openSUSE-11.3: Rejected by Hendrik Vogelsang (hennevogel)
reject date: 2009-08-24 11:51:00
reject reason: A decision on this matter has already been taken by the
openSUSE product manager. You are mistaken that this decision is based
on votes on a feature. It is based on the recent discussion which
included all of your arguments. Please stop wasting resources because
you don't agree with the decision. Thank you.
Priority
Requester: Important

Requested by: Christian Jäger (eet)

Description:
I propose to make GNOME the default desktop in openSUSE. It has been
decided that users are overly challenged by having to decide between
the GNOME and KDE desktop environments during the installation
procedure. If this is true, such users will be overly challenged by the
KDE desktop environment which is now planned to be the default choice.
This proposal is meant to solve this problem by changing the default
desktop environment for openSUSE to GNOME. These are the reasons why
GNOME should be defaulted  in openSUSE, not KDE:
1) By default an easy-to-use desktop environment should be installed:
The way it is planned now, users who are uncertain about what desktop-
environment they want because they are not tech-savvy or who don't know
either KDE nor GNOME will end up with KDE because it will be defaulted.
This basically means that those users who are most in need of a newbie-
friendly desktop will get KDE.  This clearly is wrong. KDE is an expert-
desktop; it's strength is that its highly configurable. This is not
what new and/or non-tech-savvy users want, nor is it what they need.
KDE users are usually technically advanced and will know how to click
the 'KDE' tickbox, while newbies should get GNOME.
2) Consistency with the NOVELL SUSE LinuxEnterprise Linux releases:
Users who have heard about SLED/SLES will expect openSUSE to resemble
those enterprise-level distributions. They will feel short-changed if
they are presented with the unfamiliar KDE-desktop after an openSUSE
install
3) GNOME is the world's standard Linux desktop environment: In order to
compete on a global level, we should adopt the world's favored Linux
desktop environment. The mainly regionally (Germany/Europe) successful
KDE is not the solution for international success but a niche product.
All globally successful distributions use GNOME; such as Red Hat
Enterprise Linux, Fedora, Debian and most prominently Ubuntu.
4) Ubuntu: We must present a strong alternative to Ubuntu. This can NOT
be a KDE desktop as we can see by the relatively low popularity of
Kubuntu.  KDE can never attract more than a minority of expert users.
We must build on the innovations that won SLED awards and popularity.
5) Innovation: To say it outright, KDE had its chance to innovate and
failed. KDE 4 was a massive disappointment even to hard-core KDE users
in that it produced no enhancement to user-experience nor stability.
With the upcoming GNOME 3 release openSUSE has the chance to present
revolutionary user experience by the introduction of Gnome-shell as an
alternative UI, while still providing users with the option to continue
using the traditional GNOME UI.
6) Attracting developers: What openSUSE already has is an abundance of
contributors to KDE. We now urgently need to attract more GNOME
developers by focusing on GNOME development and showing commitment to
success in our competition with Ubuntu.
openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support KDE. So experienced
users can choose it. But new users should have GNOME as a default.
Please note that I would have preferred if openSUSE had remained with
its policy of treating both desktop-environments as equals, but
unfortunately, following a request by some KDE-proponents, that policy
has been changed to a popularity contest between both DEs by statistics
and voting-contests in openFATE. This feature request is nothing but a
neccessary reaction to proposal #306967, so that users have a choice to
vote for either KDE or GNOME to be defaulted.

Discussion:
#1: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:04:56)
lol.

#2: Daniele Tombolini (kailed) (2009-08-24 11:15:35)
Sorry but it seems an childs game... -1

#3: David Hodgson (jetojedno) (2009-08-24 11:53:04)
This is just an attempt to change a decision they didn't like -
adopting KDE as a default.
There is a more sensible discussion we could have (and which is worth
the time and effort) - how should the default be chosen.

#4: Christian Jäger (eet) (2009-08-24 12:00:44)
Note that this is a request for 11.3, not for 11.2 which has been
decided to default to KDE.
 
So, I don't understand that this feature request should be rejected,
while the 'default KDE' request for 11.2 stands.

#5: Tomi Justen (letkume) (2009-08-24 15:38:45)
1) KDE is by far easier to use than Gnome. Gnome is the most illogical
environment that i know. For newbies with Windows backroung Gnome is
just backwards in every way.
2) Enterprise level users know what "desktop environment" means.
Opensuse has sceenshots on its webpage.
3) This is just because Ubuntu farmed those free CD:s around the world.
This doeasnt make Gnome any better.
4) As i mentioned, lets just farm millions of free CD:s and we get the
same result with KDE. With Gnome as default we alienate the loyal KDE
krowd. Gnome people use Ubuntu anyway, why change?
5) KDE4 failed, because it was adopted to the distribution way too
soon. From my point of view its still in development, but getting
better. Why make this same stupid mistake with gnome 3? 
6) I dont think you create a credible image by scattering the
development and making an inferior product. No reason to convert a
professional product into a newbie product.


#6: Peter Ling (laucimor) (2009-08-24 23:22:43)
This isn't constructive, it's just trolling making the opposite argumes
of those made in the KDE proposal for 11.2. Let's at least see how 11.2
turns out before re-evaluating it.

#7: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-25 01:47:03)
Christian,
I shall reply by point number.
1. KDE is certianly not harder to use then Gnome in default
settings.  Sorry but this is true.  In fact more users going by install-
a-thons prove otherwise.  People seem more comfortable with KDE then
Gnome at those.  Recently we had one such event offering Ubuntu,
Kubuntu, openSUSE, Fedora and Mandriva.  Ubuntu of course was on
display with Gnome, Kubuntu with KDE, openSUSE with both desktops KDE
and Gnome, Same with Fedora and Mandriva with KDE.  Most of the people
were getting KDE to be their desktop (openSUSE and Mandriva).  I might
also add to the fact that these people ranged from no experience with
computers at all to people who were coming from windows.
 
2. SLED and RH combined account for < 3% of total linux desktops out
there. Sad fact is that most people don't even have a clue about SLED
let alone have expectations of openSUSE feeling shortchanged by
openSUSE.  Again, your ability to choose Gnome if desired is not
impared by any means.
3. Sorry but linux has no "standard desktop".  In fact linux has no
desktop.  A standard would imply that a conviening authority declared
it as such and a quick look at the LSB shows no such thing as a "GNOME
is the world's standard Linux desktop environment" Hell, Gnome doesn't
even account for 1/2 the de's installed on linux desktop
system.  Distro's have default desktops, not standard, default!
=standard.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2008-linuxquestions.org-members-choice-awards-83/desktop-environment-of-the-year-695620/
http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf
http://www.google.com/trends?q=GNOME%
2C+KDE&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Even the one survey that does favor Gnome (although alot of speculation
on it since there was a whole crapload of suspicious last minute 10000
entries citing Gnome and openSUSE) shows that Gnome does not have a
majority.

http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0813200712407
http://www.ubuntista.com/2007/08/24/the-truth-about-gnome-vs-kde/
Even in a Ubuntu/Gnome fan site such as Phoronix shows KDE capturing
more share.
http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15809
4. You don't beat competition or even remain competative by trying to
clone efforts.  That's something that the black market knock off jean
sellers do, not a industry leader.  Toyota didn't become the largest
automotive manufacturer in the world by copying the previous largest
manufacturer GM.
5. As far as Gnome shell being innovative, that might be true when
compared to Gnome but when compared to other desktops you can trace
much of it's idea's dating back to Amiga days in 1985.  There is
nothing really innovative about it.
Gnome has not made even close to the radical changes that KDE has over
the same period. Just the plain fact that the KDE3/4 transition has
been as smooth as it has is a pure testament of the competency of the
KDE team. Compare deltas between the two projects over the years and
you can see that the Gnome team changed about as much as the windows xp
desktop over the years.
6. See retorts to points 1-5, if Gnome wants to get better then they
have to contend with KDE.  Competition breeds innovation.  No company
or project got better sitting on their collective asses being
unchallenged.
I might add your suggestion now has the honored label of being the most
voted down feature ever in openFATE.  Even keeping KDE 3.5 available
for another release has recieved more support.  Your decision to post
such a suggestion out of spite has had the exact opposite effect as to
what you thought you would be able to achieve.  Congratulations,
instead of rallying your troops you wound up pushing out of the foxhole
and into the underground tunnels.
 
 
 

#8: Ralph Ulrich (ulenrich) (2009-08-25 15:27:49)
What about a Debian like popcon. With all DisplayManagers which have at
least one vote appearing in a selection ordered by the popularity vote
the year before. You can have SLE installations also voted. And all is
automated without any discussions.

#9: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-25 17:48:17)
stats as they stand today:
Default KDE = 340 votes - 4:1 in favour - most popular openfate request
ever
Default Gnome = -34 votes - 4:1 against - most unpopular openfate
request ever
that kind of says it all really

#10: Gaël Beaudoin (gabooo) (2009-08-25 19:58:08)
What a basic troll. All you do here is spiting out your hate and
deception. Congratulations.

#11: Markus K (kamikazow) (2009-08-28 18:21:33)
If the request rationale would have been "GNOME should be default,
because GNOME users are not used to configuring anything and anything
but a pre-selected GNOME totally confuses them. KDE users OTOH love
configuration possibilities and never use the defaults anyway ", I
probably even voted your request up.
That would have been a pro-usability rationale. The decision to make
KDE default was a demographics rationale. Both are valid rationales.
Yours OTOH is "I hate KDE and Ubuntu rulezzzzzz" – a very, very lame
argument.

#12: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-08-28 19:25:52) (reply to #11)
I believe its fanboys like you that give projects a bad name.

+ #13: Robert Davies (robopensuse) (2009-12-10 17:06:53)
+ The majority of openSUSE users prefer KDE, so GNOME would be a bad
+ choice of default.
+ The feature requesters arguments are irrelevant as most new users are
+ directed to try a Live CD!, rather than DVD download or Net
+ Installation, and in that instance the desktop selection is made by
+ user selecting an ISO file, with equal preference.
+ GNOME has had huge corporate resources thrown behind, vastly more than
+ KDE yet KDE is more advanced, and as the most popular choice in a
+ community distro deserves default status.  Whilst Kubuntu 9.10, Fedora
+ & Mandriva have delivered good KDE distributions this year, having
+ openSUSE as "default" KDE, offers chance to build the community should
+ competition falter.  Setting GNOME by default will have much less
+ psychological impact, because everyone knows that the commercial
+ distributions *must* support it well, as the most chosen corporate
+ desktop.
+ KDE configurability has been used in past, to make Kiosk style
+ environments, so a "dumbed down" version would be technically feasible,
+ should apparent simplicity be desired over letting the user have useful
+ features.



--
openSUSE Feature:
https://features.opensuse.org/307495

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