Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (602 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: [PLEASE SPEAK UP] Disabling legacy file systems by default?
Maybe in the enterprise world it makes sense to try to protect your
computers from bad flash drives by removing support for things, but
I'm sure that's an idea that's opposed to the way most people that
work with open or free software think, at least from where I'm
standing, even if it has any real effectiveness as a defence against
bad flash drives.

I say it without looking at the list: please get all those file
systems back to Tumbleweed. I lost half an hour last night when I
soft-bricked my phone to fastboot and suddenly my machine that did
mkfs e2fs the other day couldn't mount the SD card with data I needed
to repair the phone. But I now realize maybe this wasn't really that
of a boomer since now I can present you with this cautionary tale.
This is why you shouldn't just break any one of those systems that
were for a long time supported on Tumbleweed and are probably in use
somewhere, we can never now how often, and so we can't weight the
potential damage of breaking it.

I felt sad at the time because I realized that feature was present
some time before and was removed without any consent on my part and
without a package removal that would make it explicit.

Also it would take me a considerable amount of time, even not being a
novice Linux user, I've just been busy and never saw any changelogs or
notices or more sadly this thread to find out which line I'd have to
comment out, and even if it were as easy as a click hidden away
somewhere, most users would never get to read this thread or to google
it and would probably just think Tumbleweed doesn't support those
filesystems any more and move on. Please stop assuming users are
experts and don't make more difficult software for those that already
don't know how to use it, just because you say it's not that much of
them. Remember the user base of OpenSuSE is nothing alike SLES's.

Please move to the "whitelist" alike approach by default on SLES and
leave Tumbleweed with this basic feature for working with any software
system, even with those you don't use, even if you're not fond of it
or it's old. At least don't do it by default, leave this kind of
feature disabling as security measure optional. And of course, making
people unable to mount as root as a security measure is just not ok.
I'd be glad to see it working again.

Not to mention that making bad jokes about other users choices or
knowledge in a mailing list should really be taken seriously. How come
you behave like children in public like this, just because it's "the
internet"? "The community" is not an excuse for your bad choices. If
you say those things and think you know you user base, then you don't.

Please be less reckless in the future guys! In that and in not just
breaking things.

With that said, with less of that I'll probably keep using your
software for another ten years.

Best regards,

Raphael


On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 20:14, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 22:29, Michal Kubecek <mkubecek@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, Feb 05, 2019 at 06:32:17PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote:
I mean, as an example, I got a new PC recently at work. It has nVidia
graphics. Getting the nVidia driver working on Tumbleweed was pretty
horrible. After a lot of experimentation, I ended up downloading the
file direct from nVidia US and installing it, because unlike anything in
the repos, AFAICT, this does stuff like blacklisting the "nouveau"
driver for you.

Then I discovered that every time TW gets a new kernel, X.11 falls over.
I installed DKMS but it's not working.
...
Drivers are _hard_, stuff like blacklisting stuff is harder, and
troubleshooting it is not easy.

I also got a machine with an nvidia card but I took a different
approach: nvidia, by their attitude towards linux drivers, makes it
absolutely clear they don't want me to use their products. So I picked
some radeon card from the cupboard and replaced the nvidia. Eight years
later, I'm absolutely sure I chose the right solution which saved me
a lot of time and a lot of frustration. No problems with finding
a driver, no breakage after each update, I can even run Kernel:HEAD
snapshots on the machine.

Sometimes the constraints exist only as long as you refuse to think out
of the box.

From your e-mails, both here and in the recent discussion about bogus
Phoronix benchmarks, it seems that you believe the goal of openSUSE is
(or at least should be) attracting as many users as possible which
mostly means adapting the distribution to meet the expectations of
people who don't want to think, learn or work. I don't agree with such
goal because it would mean way too many sacrifices which would make the
distribution less attractive for me.

Michal Kubecek

I wholeheartedly agree with Michal

openSUSE is a community project, therefore one of our first concerns
should always remain ensuring our Project is self-sustaining.

The first, and I believe best, step to achieving that is remembering
the first lesson of "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" -

"Every good work of software starts by scratching a developer's personal
itch."

openSUSE needs to be producing stuff by the openSUSE Project, for the
openSUSE Project first and foremost.
Outreach for new users should be driven by people personally motivated
to address those area's we're reaching into (therefore, still sticking
to the first rule).
For those who believe grabbing new users is really really important,
I'm afraid that means accepting that some people like Michal exist and
will not share your vision.
You wouldn't like it if someone tried to force you to do something you
don't appreciate.
Be careful not to act in that way to others.

Forcing people to chase after dreams they don't share just risks
contributors to openSUSE drowning under poor motivation, burn out, and
at best will produce dispassionate solutions to poorly understood
problems remotely observed.

Let's keep the project focused on those things we personally care
about, and try our best to avoid chasing unicorns.
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