Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (498 mails)

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[opensuse-factory] Re: How Leap and SLE's timetable overlap
  • From: Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 25 May 2016 13:28:03 -0400
  • Message-id: <CAGpXXZ+dwKhq_hs+6SR=dTEYpHW3z72ss1WBV6m8ZnkR4-u8dA@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Nov 2016 - Release Leap 42.2 with 4.4 kernel

Spring 2017 - Release the Leap 42.2 "advanced kernel" (ie. the 2017
LTS kernel).

Fall 2017 - Release Leap 42.3 with the 2017 LTS kernel (no longer
designated advanced).

Fall 2017 - Drop all support for the 4.4 kernel when Leap 42.3 is released

Spring 2018 - Release the 42.3 "advanced kernel" (ie. the 2018 LTS kernel)

Spring 2018 - Drop 2017 LTS kernel support (when Leap 42.2 support is
dropped).

The end result is that over the summer 2 kernels are supported: the
current LTS kernel and the previous year's LTS kernel.

But during the winter only one kernel is supported.

<snip>

Greg, please consider the user impact of what you are proposing.

Two kernels in the same distro?

That is my suggestion.

Users having to switch to one during the lifecycle of the distro?
That complexity and that forced changing brings with it risk - new kernels
break things for some people. Some people don't want to take those risks.
Those are the people we make Leap for.

Is it more risk?

==> Current Leap plan for 42.2:

Release Nov 2016 with 4.4 kernel.

~ Nov 2017 Leap 42.3 released with 2017 LTS kernel.

~ 6 months later, Leap 42.2 EOL.

So users have a 6 month window to upgrade both their kernel and their userspace.

==> My proposal:

Release Nov 2016 with 4.4 kernel.

~ May 2017 release 2017 LTS kernel for 42.2.

~ Nov 2017 Leap 42.3 released with same 2017 LTS kernel.

~ Nov 2017 Leap 42.2 2016 LTS kernel retired

~ 6 months later, Leap 42.2 EOL.

So users have 2 6 month windows

First they have from May 2017 to Nov 2017 to upgrade to the 2017 LTS kernel.

Then they have from Nov 2017 until 6 months later to migrate from Leap
42.2 userspace to 42.3 userspace.

============
Conceivably it might be a little more work for the user, but it should
actually be less risky since they are making the upgrade in 2 steps.

Further, in the current plan, the 2017 LTS kernel will be supported
for 18 months from Nov 2017 to 18 months later.

In my proposal is also supported for 18 months, but they 18 months
starts in May 2017. That would reduce the support load on the kernel
team (I assume).

Leap is never going to support the latest and greatest hardware. It's not
meant to. It's meant to be a reliable, dependable, workhorse of a
distribution that people can put their faith into.

Latest and greatest is one thing, but taking 2 years to support
technologies like Skylake is clearly not acceptable.

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/intel-skylake-core-m-processors/

Maybe the SLE team will backport Skylake support into 4.4? If not, a
new major intel CPU line won't be supported by Leap until Leap 42.3 in
fall 2017. 2 years after release.

Skylake support won't be in a LTS kernel until early 2017, so even
with my proposal it will take 18-months for that support to get into
Leap.

A more moderate pace of change,like the one we currently have, is the best
way to accomplish that.

I argue its exactly the same pace of change. I'm just proposing
pulling the LTS kernel update forward 6 months.

You are effectively suggesting for the Kernel in Leap we adopt a rolling
release model. The kernel does not exist in isolation. Moving it means we
have to move other things to. This is why rolling releases are a thing. We
have a rolling release.

But I'm only proposing the kernel be updated once a year. Not exactly
a rolling release.

For people like you who buy USB 3.1 Gen 2 Ludicrous speed cards so early in
the protocols existence the Kernel doesn't support it yet, we have
Tumbleweed.

I didn't (and don't) expect Leap 42.1 to support 2015 technology. I
do think a Nov 2016 Leap release should support the majority of 2015
technology.

Even my proposal doesn't meet that hope/dream.

You cannot have it both ways. If you want to leave life on the edge, and
your hardware purchases suggest you do, then Tumbleweed is the best platform
for you.

Sure, the first year or so new technology comes out, requiring
Tumbleweed makes sense. My complaint is the 2-year delay that seems
likely for technology released the 2nd half of 2015.

And before you argue '3.1 Gen 2 is going to take over the world in 12
months, I'd like to point out that USB 3 came out in 2008 and took years
before becoming ubiquitous.
3.1 is only just now appearing on new mainstream machines and even then that
is Gen 1, fully supported stuff
I can find ONE motherboard, a high end MSI gaming board with a Gen 2 card in
it

We're not building Leap to cover every edge case. USB 3.1 Gen 2 is an edge
case now, it will be in November, and I do not feel it's support is a
compelling argument for playing loose and risk with the entire concept and
purpose of what we're doing with Leap.

USB 3.1 Gen 2 is just a symptom of the larger problem. And as noted
elsewhere, the SLE team has already back-ported part of that support.

Greg
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