Mailinglist Archive: opensuse-factory (1134 mails)

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Re: [opensuse-factory] Calling for a new openSUSE development model
Am Freitag, 15. Juni 2012, 07:46:54 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
Am 14.06.2012 23:31, schrieb Obexer Christoph:

I've seen a few openSuSE releases from the Factory perspective (being here
since the KDE4.0 release) and the failure pattern for Factory was always
the same:

did you use it or are you just reading the flames on this list?
Yes i use only Factory.

1) nobody uses Factory
As Jos Poortvliet pointed out ex-aggregating these points wasn't the best
idea... but saying that too few of the packagers
seem to use Factory given the number of failing packages / the time they are in
a failed state

I do. On my main work machine, exclusively. I had a fallback partition
with the "latest released" version for emergencies, but after some
incompatible update in Factory (some kde4 update which would have
trashed the shared $HOME if I booted the old one) I never booted it again.
It's now at 11.4 level.

=> Factory *is* rock solid if you remotely know what you are doing.
If, of course, "zypper dup" suggests removing 500 packages and switching
the rest from x86_64 to i586, then my common sense kicks in and I skip
this update until tomorrow.

2) nobody cares for Factory

Not true. Check the commit logs how many packages I fixed for autoconf /
gcc47 / other trivial stuff, which I never use or even have installed on
my system. A "osc pr -q -s F openSUSE:Factory" is something I do daily
and if there are low hanging fruits that are easy to fix (and there
always are) and I have 5 minutes to spare, then I fix them.
So you are actively insulting all people working on Factory -- not a
good strategy if you want to make more people participate :-)

Again I ex-aggregated this point too far... sorry! It was for sure not my
intention to insult anyone!

Thanks for your hard work on Factory, if we had a few more of you we wouldn't
have this thread and discussion!

* feature freeze comes close
3) rush in unstable packages to catch the next release with the wanted
* as a Factory user you should skip the next 1 or 2 milestones because they
are horrible

Alternatively, you, as a Factory user, could bug the maintainer of
packages that you use to actually submit earlier. This often works quite
fine. I sometimes send mails like "in devel:project:foo you have already
newer version of bar, how about submitting this to Factory so we can get
testing coverage early" and sometimes the answer is "no, it is really
not yet ready for consumption" but often it is "thanks for the reminder,
that's a good idea, we simply forgot about Factory".

That wasn't the point here, the point was that in a release on time managed
project you need to push something in or
it misses the release train and then needs to wait 8 months for the next one...

4) Beta1
* a few people in the community fix up some of the bugs (and start to look
at BNC)
5) RC1, better but still not up to where it should be
6) time based release have to go out, "we fix that with an update"

That's what I also don't like, but then somewhen the thing needs to go
out of the door. I personally don't bother, since I'm using Factory anyway.

And here is where tumbleweed really shines: a package update is shipped when
it's ready and as soon as it's ready. No need to catch a specific date.

doing this the right way would make openSuSE a whole lot more stable IMHO,
and it would also attract more contributors,
because getting something in the hands of actual users could be done as a
weekend project, instead of a multiple month time investment

You'd still need a devel project to find out when something is stable
enough to go into your "stable Factory" Tumbleweed.

Every package is part of a devel project, they are based on factory right? and
bigger changes need integration repositories like the gcc update had.

I, as a developer, would not want to use something as old, outdated and
boring like tumbleweed on my machine.
So if we drop Factory, I'll definitely need to find something else to
install on my box(es, starting after the 12.2 release I will move my
home servers also to Factory as it is less work to keep it working then
to fix up after a "release update").

So you basically want the same thing that I want, it's just that you don't
believe it would work the way I proposed here :)
i could go into more detail, but I'm unwanted here so i try to keep it short

Everybody is unwanted here. Can you imagine "they" even declined some of
my submit requests? And voted my features down? I probably should also
shut up...

No! that would be a big loss for the openSuSE community!

Christoph Obexer
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