Re: [suse-linux-uk-schools] Re: Re: Open Source pr Propriety

On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 14:57, Colin McQueen wrote:

"ICT Support Officer" wrote:

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When I find that a LEA tells a school that it can't have Linux servers because they don't support it and I say you don't need to, we will and then they say you can't have remote access except using a Windows only solution I get just a tad annoyed. Then after a meeting they refer me to the same clueless minion who I know doesn't understand diddle.

You see its this judgmental attitude that gets my back up. Even if they

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Sounds more like Ian is complaining about LEAs (plural) with rather a "judgmental attitude".

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are clueless, they have a right to a viewpoint and a right to doing their job their way. To call someone this without knowing them or their background is just plainly wrong.

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Mark Evans St. Peter's CofE High School Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109 Fax: +44 1392 204763

This is a SUSE forum or other, is it not? The fact that we are on this list is because we all support open Source. If I support Liverpool Football club, I would not normaly join Arsenal. So, all opinions here however harsh they may be are for us alone. When on independent grounds with other people we would use different phrases and aproaches.

Well this is where we differ then. I have only one approach and that (as people on this list no doubt are becoming aware) often gets me into trouble. I'd defend myself in saying that my offences are not deliberate. I do try to show I appreciate people despite differences.

Don't we all? E-mail is just about the best medium for misunderstandings, polarising debates and generally getting things out of proportion :-) I constantly have to tell some of our support people to talk to people on the phone, because E-mail is not always the best way of communicating.

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All comments made by Ian or any other which may sound judgemental or "harsh" in this list are perfectly acceptable. I wish there were more people like Ian or Mark here.

Well of course you do. We all want people around us that agree with us and that speak up for a cuase we believe in. They both don't just talk the talk they walk the walk. But I still maintain that a block to open source in schools is the perception many people in schools have of the people pushing it.

I too appreciate Ian's work and value his opinions. I have learned loads fom him and was very close to going with his company when I was at Romsey School. (IIRC).

However, I know of one scghool where Ian has not come across well because he seemed too evangelistic. A price he has to pay perhaps.

Its a price anyone marketing anything has to pay. Some kids are turned off by evangelical teachers, but I think many more respond better to a teacher who is passionate about what they teach. I think I know the school in question but they should remain anon. They were offered any solution they wanted. My impression was that the key decision maker would not have "risked" us anyway since we offered either a Windows based solution or an OpenSource one. It was just that the OpenSource one was a lot, lot less expensive. The thing is that you win some and you lose some. If you don't make the case out as to why you believe something is desirable, why would anyone have the confidence to take the plunge? Sort of no-one takes any notice if you don't say it with conviction but if you do you are a zealot :-) My philosophy is just go for it. Some people will be ready, some won't. Seems to me that the number ready is increasing though, which is good because the stronger the business the more resource we can put into it. The school I was at to-day knew nothing of OO.o or FLOSS but they are keen to get involved and since they have been shortlisted as a specialist science college, chances are they will have the money to do it and support it. Even if at first they buy mainly non-FLOSS stuff it still leaves the door open for later and strengthens the company to allow more development in the FLOSS side of things.

In conclusion (I don't intend to continue on this anymore, I am bothering too many people and obviously don't have the correct approach)

I think you are putting up some useful devils advocate. Its far too easy to just become a mutual admiration society. Two sides are needed to have a debate and it takes bottle to take the minority view - everyone on this list should understand that :-) Hopefully we can be passionate without falling out.

I don't agree with the negative view many people on this list have of LEAs and teachers in school. I believe the majority do a good job in very difficult circumstances.

So do I, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement and in the context of FLOSS in education some feathers are going to get ruffled. Its the nature of change. Read some Michael Fullan on educational change in general. It helps put the change in technology into some sort of wider perspective.

I am pro open source but not against proprietary software.

I'm only against it if it makes no commercial sense! Certainly at present it would be impossible to run most schools in all aspects without some proprietary software though the balance of need is constantly shifting and will depend on the people as much as the technology. The thing is how many schools are willing to do a limited trial? My usual approach is to say try it on a limited scale and see how you get on with it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing but it is worth doing a bit of research and trials to keep up to date.

I believe that I can be a useful aid to getting more open source into schools, indeed I have done so. If I can contribute to production e.g. an open source version of KS3 curriculum material I will do so. I have asked on the Hampshire secondary co-ordinators mailing list for info back on use of open source in schools, at the same time putting in adverts for about a dozen open source projects.

If anyone is interested in the results of my survey let me know, I should have something to put out in the new year.

Why not make them available on the Schoolforge UK site? It would help if things of this nature went there because it makes it easier to find.

BTW Merry Christmas ^ / \ / \ |

Ditto. -- ian