On Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:06:28AM +0000, Ian wrote:
On Sunday 03 February 2002 23:32, 'Frank Shute' wrote:
Ask admissions tutors at any university of how their intake of undergrads stack up when it comes to being prepared to take a technical subject at degree level - the fact is that they don't. OK, they'll weed out the chaff from the corn but they've still got a hell of a lot of preparation to do on these students.
A level subjects are not uniformily difficult (or easy depending on your view point)
Universities are in fierce competition for the best students. Far more students go to university so unless they are significantly more intelligent for some reason, the number of able ones per population entering is lower. This is why there is a big demand for maths because A level maths students are generally speaking the brightest of those with a technical leaning. Probably why admissions tutors prefer maths to computer studies at A level.
Yet my understanding is that people doing the hard technical subjects at A level is falling & universities are failing to fill their places for engineering/sciences. Admissions tutors know that a good pass in any of these subjects (but especially maths) indicates they've got a student who can think logically and is bright. Computer studies at A level? From the sounds of it, it's a glorified MCSE in a lot of cases without the pupil necessarily having even programmed in a proper language or with an understanding of the basics of how a microprocessor works.
Schools are driven by bogus league tables that mean their and their pupil's & staff's success is gauged by exam passes.
If you look at any situations where league tables are introduced, standards rise. Look at Rugby Union.
You're looking at the wrong thing. Look at the NHS, standards have fallen. You can't gauge the performance of a public service empirically & to attempt to do so is not only a waste of time but ends up driving the public service from fullfilling it's service obligations on a case-by-case basis to attempting to cook a league table.
The fact is that there are many many more students in the system and in the pre-league tables era, many of these would never have passed a GCSE or an A level let alone gone to Univ.
Yes there are. But what are they studying at uni? And why are more passing? More are passing IMO because the system is such that you can effectively `buy' an A level certificate from an examining board by hunting around and choosing the one with the easiest papers.
If we believe getting more students into HE is a good thing the current problems inevitable. OTOH if you believe HE is only suited to a minority, you have a point and we should be requiring A or B grade at A level in say 4 or 5 subjects for anyone to enter any University.
HE per se is a good thing but that doesn't mean that 50% of students (or whatever the govt's 10 yr plan says) should do it. Whilst going to university is equated as being the ultimate in educative success, as determined by the bogus league tables, then the system is skewed into sending people to university whether it's suitable for them or not.
Bear in mind this would also mean redundancies in university teaching staff.
So be it, they can always get jobs elsewhere.
Hence demeaned & worthless exams passed by students studying worthless and demeaning dross like VB.
This is a minor thing in the scheme of things and there are plenty of similar issues in other subjects. I think the lack of technical rigour in ICT throughout the education system is the real problem of which the VB thing is a symptom, and its not the most important one.
You're right in that it's symptomatic but not the real pathology of the problem, but ICT in schools as it currently stands is shameful. Yes, there are good schools but is there anything more than guidelines for them to follow? There should be examples of best practice for them to follow rather than the current seemingly ad hoc approach.
People record simple macros then they edit them. VB is a natural progression from on from this. That the way the mainstream world is working. Sorry if you feel that I may be wrong but from where I am standing, this is the case.
Yes, but is it right? And is it right that somebody posts to this list & explicitly suggests that it is the only `possibility'? And when someone questions the status quo they're condemned for being some sort of thug?
Thats just an effect of the emotion you put into your replies :-)
I guess so.
Too right. Linux and open source software needs to be seen in the wider perspective of what IMHO is a failing education system & it's political context.
The education system has been failing for years, in fact ever since I can remember but in reality for the most part, my observations show better teaching than when I was at school. That doesn't mean everything in the garden is rosey but neither is it all doom and gloom.
My guess is that teachers are about as good/bad as they've always been it's the system that they work under (performance tables etc) that means that the students they are pushing out are quite frankly not up to very much in my experience.
To kick off with, league tables should be binned along with the present exam boards.
You forgot IMHO :-)
And what are you going to put in their place? OK ban league tables but with the wonders of modern technology the Daily Mail will do unofficial ones.
Ban the Daily Mail & do us all a favour? ;)
Ban exams boards and replace them with what? No exams?
Get rid of the current exam boards & replace them with a not for profit organisation which isn't subject to political interference - a tall order I know when we've got Joe Stalin's clone in no.10
I have some sympathy with getting rid of GCSE if most people stay on to 18 but ingeneral you need some measurement of performance and progress otherwise how do you decide who goes on which university course who who is qualified to do what job?
ATM, the exams are not really indicative of performance. Clueless bozos and brilliant students alike can get grade A's in most subjects. Too much store is currently put towards not letting students suffer failure & making them feeling worthwhile at all costs. Let them fail and experience what life's like - it's not only success but bitter failure too. Then they'll be better prepared for the outside world. -- Frank *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Boroughbridge. Tel: 01423 323019 --------- PGP keyID: 0xC0B341A3 *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* http://www.esperance-linux.co.uk/