Hi Lukas,

Looks nice :)

Thanks! :-)

... however I'm afraid some screens still need to be enhanced.

Was waiting for that :-)

For instance this one: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_overview_testpage.png

* Every button that opens a pop-up dialog should have "..." at the end of the label. Aren't "Print Test Page" and "Remote Access" that case? Hard to say.

In that case, they should. But let's put this "..."-issue somewhere into the style guide. Maybe we can put it down next Tuesday when the topic is pop ups anyway.

* There are two different "Print Test Page" buttons (for two different printer types), but they're on different places horizontally. Please, unify them :)

OK, done.

* I have no clue what "Remote Access" means, what can I do there? Check the printer remotely? Configure it remotely? What "access" means?

It allows you to choose general access settings for CUPS. If you choose e.g. "do not allow remote access" cannot share your local queues. Maybe we should name it "CUPS Access Settings"? Having the problem that the user needs to know what CUPS is.

* Button "Print via Network" is that another type of "Test Page"?

Wow! I am surprised that this label is perceived as confusing. Just out of curiousity: How did you come to this association? What did you expect behind a button called "Print via Network"?

The dialog is just a bit confusing if you don't know more.

Did it make sense to you, once you orientated yourself?

Help didn't help me here :) Anyway, the meaning should be obvious even without help.

This was intended :-) As you already mentioned: the dialog should be quite comprehensive without help :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hi Stano,

I've looked at the pages only and I must admit I had a hard time to figure out what is the difference between the 2 lists in the overview page.

But once you figured it out, did it make sense to you? Did you have difficulties because of the wording?

Also, I have a question: how does this look like in ncurses (80x24)?

@ Johannes: Could you modify your experimental module to find that out? Maybe just the overview page with the five buttons. That would be great! Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hi Stano, thanks for your replies! Maybe we should think again about the two lists. The idea behind was to clearly separate local from remote queues. Red Hat and Ubuntu are using system-config-printer (screenshot: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Rhel5_startscreen.png ) They are using a tree instead of two separate tabs. Johannes' and my concerns were that this is not enough distinction for the user. (And just a note: server settings is on the wrong hierarchy level) Maybe we can also try something treeish?

P.S. I didn't want to sound harsh in the previous reply, this redesign really looks nice. For example, I like the idea of using tree widget for specifying the type of the connection.

No, you weren't at all. I always prefer an honest comment! But I am glad you like the idea with the tree :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hi everyone, after the feedback I got from you, I made two new mock ups for the overview page: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_overview_2tabs.png http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_overview_4tabs.png I like the one with the four tabs best. This was also the conclusion drawn by our sysadmins and one of our designers. But see for yourself :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

What is the difference between 'Remote configurations',

Stanislav Visnovsky wrote / napísal(a): print via printers* configured on remote CUPS server 'Remote access' make this "local" printer* accessible via network 'Print via Network' ? print directly into network-based hardware printers (not CUPS servers) * printers in this case means "configured printer queues" -- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz napsal(a):

Hi everyone,

after the feedback I got from you, I made two new mock ups for the overview page: http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_overview_2tabs.png http://en.opensuse.org/Image:Printer_mschmidkunz_overview_4tabs.png

I like the one with the four tabs best. This was also the conclusion drawn by our sysadmins and one of our designers.

Hi, Why "Local Configurations" instead of "Local Printers"? Why "Remote Configuration" instead of "Remote Printers" or "Network Printers"? Still no idea what "Remote Access" is and why should I click on that tab :( Still very confused with "Print via Network" and still no clue why should I click on that tab :( Buttons [Add] -> [Add Printer]? / [New Printer]? [Edit] -> [Configure]? / [Reconfigure]? [Delete] -> [Remove]? [Print Test Page] is pretty obvious :) Lukas

Martin Schmidkunz napsal(a):

Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Why "Local Configurations" instead of "Local Printers"? Why "Remote Configuration" instead of "Remote Printers" or "Network Printers"?

According to Johannes, the term "printer" is meaningless. So we decided to use "configurations".

Considering the user experience, it's YaST Printer module, not YaST Configuration module. You expect to configure a printer / remote printer / remote queue / ... here. In my opinion, users are interested in printing, not configuring anything :) Having known the Johaness' opinion still didn't persuade me to accept it. Why "meaningless"?

...

Still no idea what "Remote Access" is and why should I click on that tab :(

How would you name it?

Is that about sharing my local printers as network printers? In that case, I'd rather define it for every single local printer. * Select a printer * Click [Edit] * Go to 'Sharing'

...

Still very confused with "Print via Network" and still no clue why should I click on that tab :(

How would you name it?

In my opinion, configuration should be transparent for users. They needn't have four or five tabs to configure their printer/s. Windows XP does this job much better with a single window.

...

Buttons [Add] -> [Add Printer]? / [New Printer]? [Edit] -> [Configure]? / [Reconfigure]? [Delete] -> [Remove]?

Because of the YaST style guide :-)

Oh, style-guide can be changed :) It's not a definite set of rules written into stone ;) L.

On Monday 04 February 2008 15:03, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:

Lukas Ocilka wrote:

...

Why "Local Configurations" instead of "Local Printers"? Why "Remote Configuration" instead of "Remote Printers" or "Network Printers"?

According to Johannes, the term "printer" is meaningless. So we decided to use "configurations".

Well, I don't know. Meaningless (or at least very vague) to a printer expert - maybe. But to a normal user? CU -- Stefan Hundhammer Penguin by conviction. YaST2 Development SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schmidkunz napsal(a):

Stefan Hundhammer wrote:

...

On Monday 04 February 2008 15:03, Martin Schmidkunz wrote: Well, I don't know. Meaningless (or at least very vague) to a printer expert - maybe. But to a normal user?

In fact the term "configuration" was a compromise between "queue" and "printer". And as you all know: working with YaST is nothing else than to make compromises between various stakeholders :-)

Hmm, from users' point of view, they want to configure "something" that prints their texts and pictures. Does it matter whether that "something" is a remote queue (distant printer) or a local printer? It always a "printer" anyway. Nobody knows what a 'queue' is. L.

Aloha, Am Montag, 4. Februar 2008 15:03:44 schrieb Martin Schmidkunz (shortened):

According to Johannes, the term "printer" is meaningless. So we decided to use "configurations".

Which also does not make sense. I bet Giovanni meant: Printer Configuration Greetings, Marco -- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hi Michal,

Thanks for the mockups!

Your welcome :-) It took long enough :-)

I still wonder why do we need more tabs / lists, the vast majority of users would have just few printers (and usually only 1) for which they IMHO don't need such a complicated UI.

This is correct for the desktop user, but as the printer module should also be included in SLES we need to consider larger, complexer environments as well.

If we want to support print-servers with lots of connected printers then a more reasonable solution could be one list, but with optional filters for local/remote/any/whatever (which would be even more flexible for admins).

Yes, we also thought about that. The point why we dropped it: * as you can't add/edit/delete a remote queue there would be different buttons needed for each queue type. This might potentially confuse the user * if you want to add a new queue you therefore would have click on a local queue to get an add button. This seemed quite unlogical to me. But maybe you have any ideas how to solve this?

Moreover, as I have few local printers and few remote I'd still like to see them all at one place, to have a nice overview.

Yes, I agree with you. The point is, that we don't know whether the user has only a few printer or whether he uses the module in a SLES environment.

And in addition, I could then reasonably select the Default printer, which I'm not sure is easily doable in multi-list/tab design :)

:-) Is it technically possible to select a remote queue as "default printer"? Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Michal Svec wrote:

On Mon, 4 Feb 2008, Martin Schmidkunz wrote: I'm confused, why I'm not able to delete a remote queue? Meaning, I must have added it before, right?

AFAIK a remote queue is only broadcasted by CUPS. So I add a local queue on my machine and share it with others. So they can see and use it but they are not allowed to modify it. This makes sense for me, as I don't want other users to screw up my settings.

...

* if you want to add a new queue you therefore would have click on a local queue to get an add button. This seemed quite unlogical to me.

Well, the current solution might be OK, having Add/Configure/Delete where Add would popup a list with possibilities.

To add a printer you need to determine at least: * Connection * Driver * Name for the queue We decided not to do that in a pop-up, but in one screen. The reason was that with the full screen wizards in YaST the user gets easily lost.

I might be insane but I'd like to have a possibility to see everything at once :-) Filters might help here ("limit view to only" Local etc), but it's just an idea, let's see what others think.

Well, you are the first to say that you like the overall overview :-) All the others said, that they were confused by it and liked the four tab layout best.

...

...

And in addition, I could then reasonably select the Default printer, which I'm not sure is easily doable in multi-list/tab design :) :-) Is it technically possible to select a remote queue as "default printer"? I believe yes.

Mhm. Then this would be something to be considered. Thanks for your comments, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

* Klaus Kaempf [2008-02-05 08:55]:

We make hundreds of thousands of openSUSE (resp. Desktop) users suffer just to please the minority of SLES admins (who'd be better off with a decent command line interface anyway).

openSUSE is also used for servers. Bernhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Seg, 2008-02-04 às 13:43 +0100, Michal Svec escreveu:

Moreover, as I have few local printers and few remote I'd still like to see them all at one place, to have a nice overview. And in addition, I could then reasonably select the Default printer, which I'm not sure is easily doable in multi-list/tab design :)

A combo box would do fine: Set default: | HP Model X \/ | Cheers, Ricardo -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Ricardo Cruz wrote:

A combo box would do fine: Set default: | HP Model X \/ |

Yes, but only for a limited number of printers. Imagine you would have to select one out of 30 queues :-) Another idea would be to do it via a check box in the edit dialog. Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org

Hi Stano, I just wanted to add, that another reason for separation was that the user can add/edit/delete only local queues. Maybe tabs could help here? One tab with "local queues" and one with "remote queues"? Well, let's think about it next week :-) Cu, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: yast-devel+help@opensuse.org