[yast-devel] ERROR: For RAID1, select at least 2 device.
Disappointing. I don't create new RAID devices often, so thought since the first time was so easy with YaST2 many moons ago that now it would be simple enough. It's not. I wanted to create a new RAID disk with 10 md devices in advance, one disk only initially, in a different machine than the eventual target, then after configuring it, move it to the target for actual installation, still only one disk, then once up and running, add partitions from a second disk to the RAID1 devices created on the original. YaST doesn't even let me get started, refusing to proceed with only one partition per new md device, this in both 42.1 and TW. :-( -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 17.04.2016 7:41, Felix Miata wrote:
Disappointing. I don't create new RAID devices often, so thought since the first time was so easy with YaST2 many moons ago that now it would be simple enough. It's not. I wanted to create a new RAID disk with 10 md devices in advance, one disk only initially, in a different machine than the eventual target, then after configuring it, move it to the target for actual installation, still only one disk, then once up and running, add partitions from a second disk to the RAID1 devices created on the original. YaST doesn't even let me get started, refusing to proceed with only one partition per new md device, this in both 42.1 and TW. Please follow https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Report_a_YaST_bug instead of reporting issues on mailing lists.
Cheer Martin
Martin Pluskal composed on 2016-04-17 09:51 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Disappointing. I don't create new RAID devices often, so thought since the first time was so easy with YaST2 many moons ago that now it would be simple enough. It's not. I wanted to create a new RAID disk with 10 md devices in advance, one disk only initially, in a different machine than the eventual target, then after configuring it, move it to the target for actual installation, still only one disk, then once up and running, add partitions from a second disk to the RAID1 devices created on the original. YaST doesn't even let me get started, refusing to proceed with only one partition per new md device, this in both 42.1 and TW.
Please follow https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Report_a_YaST_bug instead of reporting issues on mailing lists.
I know how to file bugs. There's nothing there about how to determine if a behavior is intended. Without first asking in a public forum, how is one supposed to know whether an observed behavior is an intended one or not? It's not a reportable bug if the behavior is intentional, is it? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Sonntag, 17. April 2016, 12:14:42 CEST schrieb Martin Pluskal:
On 17.04.2016 11:56, Felix Miata wrote:
Without first asking in a public forum,
This is not public forum, this is mailing list, whose purpose is to discuss development of yast (hence it's name "yast-devel")
Playing devil's advocate: OK, so let's discuss if YaST should allow to create degraded RAID arrays (like a RAID1 with only one disk) ;-)) BTW: IMHO it would be useful if the error message Felix mentioned in $subject would have a "I know what I'm doing, create a degraded RAID" button ;-) It probably isn't needed often, but there are cases where it would be helpful (I had to do that once, and ended up using mdadm). mdadm itsself allows creating a degraded RAID - you have to use "missing" instead of another /dev/sdXN as parameter. Regards, Christian Boltz -- Ich verlas mich. Die Dokumentation ist devel und nicht unstable, daher kann wohl nur ein kyrillischer Zeichensatz oder gar ein inhaltlicher Fehler vorkommen. Obwohl... Man könnte sie unter Windows 95 lesen, damit sie abstürzt. Das wäre aber OT. [Ferdinand Ihringer in suse-linux] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 17.04.2016 13:53, Christian Boltz wrote:
It probably isn't needed often,
That's exactly the point. We've been ending up many times implementing things that were useful only to a handful of users. Not only is that often enough not a good use of our very limited development resources, it's also almost always poorly tested and thus poorly maintained. Yet it adds to the overall technical debt of a project.
but there are cases where it would behelpful
No doubt those cases exist, but...
(I had to do that once, and ended up using mdadm).
...this is where those low-level tools come into play. Since you need
considerable subject knowledge for those operations anyway, IMHO it's not
asking too much to use those tools. They also give you the most flexibility
(and, of course, the most potential to shoot yourself in the foot - which you
might do with a YaST equivalent of that, too).
Kind regards
--
Stefan Hundhammer
Hello Stefan, only for the fun of it: On Apr 18 12:14 Stefan Hundhammer wrote (naughty excerpt):
shoot yourself in the foot with a YaST equivalent
Do you perhaps talk about a planned new great upcoming Yet another Shooting Tool ? Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Johannes Meixner wrote:
Hello Stefan,
only for the fun of it:
On Apr 18 12:14 Stefan Hundhammer wrote (naughty excerpt):
shoot yourself in the foot with a YaST equivalent
Do you perhaps talk about a planned new great upcoming
Yet another Shooting Tool ?
YaSf ? Schrotflinte .... -- Per Jessen, Zürich (11.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 17.4.2016 13:53, Christian Boltz wrote:
OK, so let's discuss if YaST should allow to create degraded RAID arrays (like a RAID1 with only one disk)
IMHO it would be useful if the error message Felix mentioned in $subject would have a "I know what I'm doing, create a degraded RAID" button ;-) It probably isn't needed often, but there are cases where it would be helpful (I had to do that once, and ended up using mdadm).
There are probably some use-cases, where some users could benefit from such feature, on the other hand something like 98% of users will never use it and it would only confuse them. Obviously, some technical solution exists, for instance, while adding devices to the not-yet-created RAID, we could, e.g., have an info label below the RAID name, changed according to the current status: - 1 disk in RAID1: RAID will be created in degraded mode, add more devices to ... (WTF is degraded? says 85% of users) - 2 disks in RAID1: RAID will be created in full-duplex mode ;) - 3 disks in RAID1: Uh... - 1 disk in RAID5: Er ... - etc. As you can see, understandable feedback for the user is not trivial. There is always room for improvement and there are also priorities. Our priority is to make Yast Partitioner simple (enough) and do not overfill it with all possible options. So, while filing a feature, make sure you also add an understandable use-case. Ideally in format: I as $X want to do $Y to achieve $Z [because $A]. Thanks for understanding Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Systems Management (Yast) Team Leader SLE Department, SUSE Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise#Czech_Republic http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScouting/ServingOthers.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
# lukas.ocilka@suse.com / 2016-04-19 10:54:20 +0200:
Obviously, some technical solution exists, for instance, while adding devices to the not-yet-created RAID, we could, e.g., have an info label below the RAID name, changed according to the current status:
- 1 disk in RAID1: RAID will be created in degraded mode, add more devices to ... (WTF is degraded? says 85% of users) - 2 disks in RAID1: RAID will be created in full-duplex mode ;) - 3 disks in RAID1: Uh... - 1 disk in RAID5: Er ... - etc.
so the user knows what RAID1 is but "degraded" will confuse them? i'll believe it when i see it. -- roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
rneuhauser@suse.cz composed on 2016-04-19 11:02 (UTC+0200):
# lukas.ocilka@suse.com / 2016-04-19 10:54:20 +0200:
Obviously, some technical solution exists, for instance, while adding devices to the not-yet-created RAID, we could, e.g., have an info label below the RAID name, changed according to the current status:
- 1 disk in RAID1: RAID will be created in degraded mode, add more devices to ... (WTF is degraded? says 85% of users)...
so the user knows what RAID1 is but "degraded" will confuse them?
+1 Use case: only 4 SATA ports on mobo (most common mATX motherboard configuration) 1 SATA port connected to DVD RW (also common) 2 SATA ports connected to original RAID1 User wants to replace entire RAID by first creating (degraded) new RAID1 on larger disk on last SATA port, then rsync from old to new while booted from DVD, after which remove old raid intact to some other machine as a backup, and lastly boot from new with other new disk connected and complete the new RAID. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 19.4.2016 13:56, Felix Miata wrote:
Use case: only 4 SATA ports on mobo (most common mATX motherboard configuration) 1 SATA port connected to DVD RW (also common) 2 SATA ports connected to original RAID1
OK, looks like a common desktop - good description. BTW, please, use fate.suse.com if you want to file a feature request.
User wants to replace entire RAID by first creating (degraded) new RAID1 on larger disk on last SATA port, then rsync from old to new while booted from DVD, after which remove old raid intact to some other machine as a backup, and lastly boot from new with other new disk connected and complete the new RAID.
This setup is, indeed, for very experienced users who made a mistake while they were partitioning their disks for the very first time. This use-case has a bit different answer: Use separate data partition, be it a RAID or not. Have your system on a different partition, again on a RAID or without. Additionally, I'd suggest such user to buy an external USB disk and save their backup there, having two disks in the same computer especially next to each other asks for unexpected failures anyway. But thanks for your use case, Felix. It's still a valid one, while I'm afraid, it will be quite rarely used. Thanks Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Systems Management (Yast) Team Leader SLE Department, SUSE Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise#Czech_Republic http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScouting/ServingOthers.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Lukas Ocilka composed on 2016-04-19 14:21 (UTC+0200):
Felix Miata wrote:
Use case: only 4 SATA ports on mobo (most common mATX motherboard configuration) 1 SATA port connected to DVD RW (also common) 2 SATA ports connected to original RAID1
OK, looks like a common desktop - good description.
BTW, please, use fate.suse.com if you want to file a feature request.
I'm an openSUSE user. suse.com is blocked via hosts file to prevent doubling or tripling browser history entries for bugzilla.opensuse.org bugs that show up in opensuse mailing lists and forums as bugzilla.suse.com or bugzilla.novell.com bugs. That said, I've used features.opensuse.org 10 times over past 5 years. Not once has one been implemented. Highest score reached is 6. IMO, for several reasons, not least of which is its superior search functionality, any FOSS project using bugzilla software for bug tracking should be using its bug tracker for feature requests. NAICT, every Linux distro (and many other FOSS projects) using bugzilla software for bug tracking, does so, except for openSUSE.
User wants to replace entire RAID by first creating (degraded) new RAID1 on larger disk on last SATA port, then rsync from old to new while booted from DVD, after which remove old raid intact to some other machine as a backup, and lastly boot from new with other new disk connected and complete the new RAID.
This setup is, indeed, for very experienced users who made a mistake while they were partitioning their disks for the very first time. This
My disks get fully partitioned before any installer ever sees them.
use-case has a bit different answer: Use separate data partition, be it a RAID or not. Have your system on a different partition, again on a RAID or without.
I fail to see how a separate data partition helps anything. I already have 14 partitions per HD used for RAID1.
Additionally, I'd suggest such user to buy an external USB disk and save their backup there, having two disks in the same computer especially next to each other asks for unexpected failures anyway.
RAID is orthogonal to backups. RAID is protection against hardware failure and downtime only. Data restoration isn't the same ordeal that hardware replacement is. I have upwards of 20 machines using current openSUSEs. Only one provides USB3. Until someone offers free replacements of those machines with machines having USB3, USB will remain an emergencies-only option here, as pre-3 has always been, painfully slow compared to ATA when GB number triple or quadruple digits, and due to unpredictable device enumeration with mixed buses, more complicated for preparation of new system disks.
But thanks for your use case, Felix. It's still a valid one, while I'm afraid, it will be quite rarely used.
You're probably right. Only the majority matters any more, unlike with the pre-open SUSEs I remember. :-( -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On 19.4.2016 11:02, rneuhauser@suse.cz wrote:
# lukas.ocilka@suse.com / 2016-04-19 10:54:20 +0200:
Obviously, some technical solution exists, for instance, while adding devices to the not-yet-created RAID, we could, e.g., have an info label below the RAID name, changed according to the current status:
- 1 disk in RAID1: RAID will be created in degraded mode, add more devices to ... (WTF is degraded? says 85% of users) - 2 disks in RAID1: RAID will be created in full-duplex mode ;) - 3 disks in RAID1: Uh... - 1 disk in RAID5: Er ... - etc.
so the user knows what RAID1 is but "degraded" will confuse them? i'll believe it when i see it.
"RAID1" was here used in context "current state": "message for user" And what I wrote was just an example. The fact, that you already have a deep knowledge about RAID types does not help here, your view is already biased by that fact ;) I did not say "X will confuse everyone", I said it would confuse 85% of users, it can be more, it can be less. Yast is a tool (or at least is planned for being a tool) for making things simple/r for users - OK, now you try to beat me that it's not. Well, maybe not now, maybe not yet, but it's definitely on the way there. This actually doesn't mean that it should have all possible options, in fact, the opposite. HTH Lukas -- Lukas Ocilka, Systems Management (Yast) Team Leader SLE Department, SUSE Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise#Czech_Republic http://www.scouting.org/Visitor/WhyScouting/ServingOthers.aspx -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Christian Boltz wrote:
Hello,
Am Sonntag, 17. April 2016, 12:14:42 CEST schrieb Martin Pluskal:
On 17.04.2016 11:56, Felix Miata wrote:
Without first asking in a public forum,
This is not public forum, this is mailing list, whose purpose is to discuss development of yast (hence it's name "yast-devel")
Playing devil's advocate:
OK, so let's discuss if YaST should allow to create degraded RAID arrays (like a RAID1 with only one disk)
I think it's outside YaST scope. Anyone who has such a need, would most likely be knowledgeable enough to understand mdadm syntax. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (8.0°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Per Jessen composed on 2016-04-21 08:37 (UTC+0200):
Christian Boltz wrote:
Playing devil's advocate:
OK, so let's discuss if YaST should allow to create degraded RAID arrays (like a RAID1 with only one disk)
I think it's outside YaST scope. Anyone who has such a need, would most likely be knowledgeable enough to understand mdadm syntax.
Maybe most. Doubtful all. Part of the reason YaST exists is to make life easier for those who can't or won't grok man pages. I still haven't figured out what the mdadm cmdline needs to include to achieve the goal that produced my OP here, a goal which does not appear to be topical here. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
I still haven't figured out what the mdadm cmdline needs to include to achieve the goal that produced my OP here, a goal which does not appear to be topical here.
I'll re-read your posting and see if I can help, but it does probably belong on opensuse-general. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (9.8°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: yast-devel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: yast-devel+owner@opensuse.org
On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 01:41:12AM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
Disappointing. I don't create new RAID devices often, so thought since the first time was so easy with YaST2 many moons ago that now it would be simple enough. It's not. I wanted to create a new RAID disk with 10 md devices in advance, one disk only initially, in a different machine than the eventual target, then after configuring it, move it to the target for actual installation, still only one disk, then once up and running, add partitions from a second disk to the RAID1 devices created on the original. YaST doesn't even let me get started, refusing to proceed with only one partition per new md device, this in both 42.1 and TW. :-(
Creating a degraded RAID is not the use-case of YaST. But feel
free to create a feature request so that PM can decide whether
time is invested in that feature or not.
Regards,
Arvin
--
Arvin Schnell,
participants (9)
-
Arvin Schnell -
Christian Boltz -
Felix Miata -
Johannes Meixner -
Lukas Ocilka -
Martin Pluskal -
Per Jessen -
rneuhauser＠suse.cz -
Stefan Hundhammer