Bug in sax2 in combination with ATI-drivers - long lasting issue for me - SuSE 9.3
Dear listmembers, when installing the new ATI drivers on my son's computer I think I found the reason why I have been struggling with the installation since the release 8.14.13 (SuSE 9.3): the file that is the call-parameter for sax2 changed. This seems to make sax2 write erratic values into /etc/X11/xorg.conf. Please see the following example: "original" config-File generated by sax2 (excerpt): This is always the same: Section "Monitor" DisplaySize 380 290 HorizSync 28-130 Identifier "Monitor[0]" ModelName "HP P1130" Option "DPMS" VendorName "HWP" VertRefresh 43-170 UseModes "Modes[0]" EndSection But here we go: ************************************************************** Section "Modes" Identifier "Modes[0]" Modeline "640x480" 23.06 640 656 720 800 480 481 484 497 Modeline "640x480" 27.74 640 664 728 816 480 481 484 500 Modeline "640x480" 32.64 640 672 736 832 480 481 484 503 Modeline "640x480" 36.97 640 672 736 832 480 481 484 505 Modeline "640x480" 42.22 640 680 744 848 480 481 484 508 Modeline "640x480" 46.80 640 680 744 848 480 481 484 511 Modeline "640x480" 51.43 640 680 744 848 480 481 484 514 Modeline "640x480" 57.18 640 680 752 864 480 481 484 517 Modeline "640x480" 62.12 640 680 752 864 480 481 484 521 Modeline "1600x1200" 155.47 1600 1704 1880 2160 1200 1201 1204 1241 Modeline "1600x1200" 184.66 1600 1712 1888 2176 1200 1201 1204 1248 Modeline "1600x1200" 214.57 1600 1720 1896 2192 1200 1201 1204 1255 Modeline "1600x1200" 245.21 1600 1728 1904 2208 1200 1201 1204 1262 Modeline "1600x1200" 274.59 1600 1728 1904 2208 1200 1201 1204 1269 Modeline "1600x1200" 306.73 1600 1736 1912 2224 1200 1201 1204 1277 Modeline "1600x1200" 336.96 1600 1736 1912 2224 1200 1201 1204 1284 Modeline "1600x1200" 367.80 1600 1736 1912 2224 1200 1201 1204 1292 Modeline "1600x1200" 401.86 1600 1744 1920 2240 1200 1201 1204 1300 Modeline "1400x1050" 118.42 1400 1488 1640 1880 1050 1051 1054 1086 Modeline "1400x1050" 140.79 1400 1496 1648 1896 1050 1051 1054 1092 Modeline "1400x1050" 163.75 1400 1504 1656 1912 1050 1051 1054 1098 Modeline "1400x1050" 185.75 1400 1504 1656 1912 1050 1051 1054 1104 Modeline "1400x1050" 209.92 1400 1512 1664 1928 1050 1051 1054 1111 Modeline "1400x1050" 232.59 1400 1512 1664 1928 1050 1051 1054 1117 Modeline "1400x1050" 257.84 1400 1520 1672 1944 1050 1051 1054 1124 Modeline "1400x1050" 281.43 1400 1520 1672 1944 1050 1051 1054 1131 Modeline "1400x1050" 305.03 1400 1520 1672 1944 1050 1051 1054 1137 Modeline "1280x1024" 105.15 1280 1360 1496 1712 1024 1025 1028 1059 Modeline "1280x1024" 125.14 1280 1368 1504 1728 1024 1025 1028 1065 Modeline "1280x1024" 145.69 1280 1376 1512 1744 1024 1025 1028 1071 Modeline "1280x1024" 165.29 1280 1376 1512 1744 1024 1025 1028 1077 Modeline "1280x1024" 186.80 1280 1376 1520 1760 1024 1025 1028 1083 Modeline "1280x1024" 207.19 1280 1376 1520 1760 1024 1025 1028 1090 Modeline "1280x1024" 229.69 1280 1384 1528 1776 1024 1025 1028 1096 Modeline "1280x1024" 250.74 1280 1384 1528 1776 1024 1025 1028 1103 Modeline "1280x1024" 271.80 1280 1384 1528 1776 1024 1025 1028 1109 Modeline "1024x768" 61.89 1024 1080 1184 1344 768 769 772 794 Modeline "1024x768" 73.89 1024 1080 1192 1360 768 769 772 799 Modeline "1024x768" 86.18 1024 1088 1200 1376 768 769 772 803 Modeline "1024x768" 97.84 1024 1088 1200 1376 768 769 772 808 Modeline "1024x768" 110.91 1024 1096 1208 1392 768 769 772 813 Modeline "1024x768" 122.97 1024 1096 1208 1392 768 769 772 818 Modeline "1024x768" 136.57 1024 1104 1216 1408 768 769 772 822 Modeline "1024x768" 149.05 1024 1104 1216 1408 768 769 772 827 Modeline "1024x768" 161.66 1024 1104 1216 1408 768 769 772 832 Modeline "800x600" 36.88 800 832 912 1024 600 601 604 621 Modeline "800x600" 44.13 800 840 920 1040 600 601 604 624 Modeline "800x600" 51.73 800 840 928 1056 600 601 604 628 Modeline "800x600" 58.73 800 840 928 1056 600 601 604 632 Modeline "800x600" 66.71 800 848 936 1072 600 601 604 635 Modeline "800x600" 73.98 800 848 936 1072 600 601 604 639 Modeline "800x600" 82.55 800 856 944 1088 600 601 604 643 Modeline "800x600" 90.10 800 856 944 1088 600 601 604 647 Modeline "800x600" 97.59 800 856 944 1088 600 601 604 650 EndSection ************************************************************** The "fixed" version shows: ************************************************************** Section "Modes" Identifier "Modes[0]" EndSection ************************************************************** This is always the same: Section "Screen" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1600x1200" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x48 EndSubSection Device "Device[0]" Identifier "Screen[0]" Monitor "Monitor[0]" EndSection The dotclocks seem very high to me. Actually there are no modelines required by the ATI-driver and for some reason they stay - I think that can be configured by the file that is handed over as parameter. Up to the version 8.14.13 I configured the driver using the call sax2 -r -m 0=fgrlx -b /usr/X11R6/lib/sax/profile/firegl From then on I used what was written down in the README.SuSE within the directory /usr/share/doc/packages/firegl, and that seems to cause the issues I have been pointing to above. sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile Maybe only few people actually run at 1600x1200 like I do - I do not know. To be more precise, I even have to add --lowres as a parameter, what was not neccessary up to version 8.14.13. Whatsoever, the result is not satisfying. Moreover I detected several entries being duplicated in the generated xorg.conf file. So, probably someone at SuSE finds the time to look into this issue. My solution was: set up all parameters at low resolution, store the xorg.conf file (but never test!), then delete all the modelines -> system is now functional. It is not a driver issue, it is a sax2 issue. Take care Dieter Jurzitza -- ----------------------------------------------------------- | \ /_/\ | | ~x~ |/-----\ / \ /- _/ ^^__ _ / _ ____ / <°°__ - _/ | |/ | | || || _| _| _| _| if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font with constant spacing like courier! :-) -----------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thu December 29 2005 12:22, Dieter Jurzitza wrote:
Dear listmembers, when installing the new ATI drivers on my son's computer I think I found the reason why I have been struggling with the installation since the release 8.14.13 (SuSE 9.3): the file that is the call-parameter for sax2 changed. This seems to make sax2 write erratic values into /etc/X11/xorg.conf. Please see the following example: "original" config-File generated by sax2 (excerpt):
The dotclocks seem very high to me. Actually there are no modelines required by the ATI-driver and for some reason they stay - I think that can be configured by the file that is handed over as parameter. Up to the version 8.14.13 I configured the driver using the call
sax2 -r -m 0=fgrlx -b /usr/X11R6/lib/sax/profile/firegl
From then on I used what was written down in the README.SuSE within the directory /usr/share/doc/packages/firegl, and that seems to cause the issues I have been pointing to above.
sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
Maybe only few people actually run at 1600x1200 like I do - I do not know. To be more precise, I even have to add --lowres as a parameter, what was not neccessary up to version 8.14.13. Whatsoever, the result is not satisfying. Moreover I detected several entries being duplicated in the generated xorg.conf file. So, probably someone at SuSE finds the time to look into this issue.
My solution was: set up all parameters at low resolution, store the xorg.conf file (but never test!), then delete all the modelines -> system is now functional.
It is not a driver issue, it is a sax2 issue.
Take care
Dieter Jurzitza
Hi Dieter. I was having the same problem and it seems to relate to the ¨-r¨ flag. You might want to try the ¨-x¨, or for myself, the ¨-V¨" (make sure it´s capital, in lower case you´ll just get the version). I kept getting that monitor based, floating screen stating ¨Out Of Sync¨ and the subsequent H and V rates. After applying the ¨-V¨ ([ -V | --vesa ] This option will set a given resolution and vertical sync) SaX2 started as expected and set up the conf file as usual. 3D is working fine (regardless of the quality of the new ATi drivers) and so far no real problems yet. HTH, Curtis. - -- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDtIPt7CQBg4DqqCwRAtBqAJwOJ4BLlMCi+vo+6a5lmICTfCQIiwCgk6JE 8RZgvuK8TZDEP1xGoah+tLM= =Df/W -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi Curtis, thank you for the hint, I will surely test this. However, the call sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile is exactly what SuSE recommends for configuration - if this does not work, it should be considered a bug, isn't it? I am listening to the xfree-mailing list for a while now, but I haven't seen any commentary there saying, "hey, if you run into this or that trouble, try this ...". Maybe some readme's with options what and how to test would be helpful, too. Due to the fact that the 3D performance of the ATI-driver is significantly better (no more graphics errors, no more system freezes) I think there are good reasons to use it - regardless of gpl / nogpl discussions. IMHO a recommendation on how to configure is better than no recommendation - but it should be conservative. And, (this one goes to SuSE) if volunteers are needed for testing to improve documentation - I am willing to help, but someone should coordinate somehow. Take care Dieter Jurzitza Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2005 01:48 schrieb Curtis Rey:
Hi Dieter. I was having the same problem and it seems to relate to the ¨-r¨ flag. You might want to try the ¨-x¨, or for myself, the ¨-V¨" (make
-- ----------------------------------------------------------- | \ /_/\ | | ~x~ |/-----\ / \ /- _/ ^^__ _ / _ ____ / <°°__ - _/ | |/ | | || || _| _| _| _| if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font with constant spacing like courier! :-) -----------------------------------------------------------
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri December 30 2005 04:21, Dieter Jurzitza wrote:
Hi Curtis, thank you for the hint, I will surely test this. However, the call
sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
is exactly what SuSE recommends for configuration - if this does not work, it should be considered a bug, isn't it?
I am listening to the xfree-mailing list for a while now, but I haven't seen any commentary there saying, "hey, if you run into this or that trouble, try this ...". Maybe some readme's with options what and how to test would be helpful, too.
Due to the fact that the 3D performance of the ATI-driver is significantly better (no more graphics errors, no more system freezes) I think there are good reasons to use it - regardless of gpl / nogpl discussions.
IMHO a recommendation on how to configure is better than no recommendation
- but it should be conservative. And, (this one goes to SuSE) if volunteers are needed for testing to improve documentation - I am willing to help, but someone should coordinate somehow.
Take care
Dieter Jurzitza
Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2005 01:48 schrieb Curtis Rey:
Hi Dieter. I was having the same problem and it seems to relate to the ¨-r¨ flag. You might want to try the ¨-x¨, or for myself, the ¨-V¨" (make
I agree overall - the doc should be updated if this is a persistent or pervasive problem. The ¨-r¨ causes sax2 to re-init the database, if you monitor is not in the database this may be the problem - no reference = hang/fail/crash, The ¨-V¨ seemed to be a more cogent solution since it mandates theat sax2 base monitor values/spec on VESA standards (and may cause it to read the monitors DDC output). Anyway give it a try. Cheers, Curtis. - -- Spammers Beware: Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again! Warning: Individuals throwing objects at the crocodiles will be asked to retrieve them! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDtdoY7CQBg4DqqCwRAiIdAJ0XuuSFT8NagvGrkJ73h7Z1PeIlPACcD7Nl 1FwfcIiYoH2CkUgzM5s1S2M= =ESLD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Dec 30, 05 17:08:35 -0800, Curtis Rey wrote:
On Fri December 30 2005 04:21, Dieter Jurzitza wrote:
Hi Curtis, thank you for the hint, I will surely test this. However, the call
sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
It should read sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx Nothing more.
is exactly what SuSE recommends for configuration - if this does not work, it should be considered a bug, isn't it?
The thing you are experiencing is a bug in the fglrx driver. OpenSUSE bugzilla #115281. SL10.0 should work by not including any modelines.
I am listening to the xfree-mailing list for a while now, but I haven't seen any commentary there saying, "hey, if you run into this or that trouble, try this ...". Maybe some readme's with options what and how to test would be helpful, too.
If you havn't seen any tipps, then this might indicate that it just (TM) works (TM)? ;)
I agree overall - the doc should be updated if this is a persistent or pervasive problem.
Where did you actually get the command line from?
The �-r� causes sax2 to re-init the database, if you monitor is not in the
No. It reinits in the form that the old configuration isn't parsed. The new one is created from scratch. Matthias -- Matthias Hopf <mhopf@suse.de> __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ labs www.mshopf.de
sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
It should read sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx Nothing more.
Dear Mr. Hopf, please take a look into /usr/share/doc/packages/firegl/README.SuSE as extracted from the latest ATI driver package (8.20.8, similar on older ones). I cite: ************************************************************************* ATI fglrx driver configuration (including 3D support) ----------------------------------------------------- Switch to runlevel 3 ("init 3") and use the following command as user "root" to configure the ATI fglrx driver (including 3D support). sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile On (open)SUSE 10.1 (Alpha) or later it's no longer required to specify the profile, so use "sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx" instead. ************************************************************************* since I explicitly denoted that I am using SuSE 9.3 I cannot know about your suggestion. The doc references SuSE 10.1 which is - to all my knowledge - experimental. README.SuSE should be the reference, shouldn't it? So, please recheck with ATI on this if the README.SuSE is not in tune with what SuSE recommends.
is exactly what SuSE recommends for configuration - if this does not work, it should be considered a bug, isn't it?
The thing you are experiencing is a bug in the fglrx driver. OpenSUSE bugzilla #115281. SL10.0 should work by not including any modelines.
I am listening to the xfree-mailing list for a while now, but I haven't seen any commentary there saying, "hey, if you run into this or that trouble, try this ...". Maybe some readme's with options what and how to test would be helpful, too.
If you havn't seen any tipps, then this might indicate that it just (TM) works (TM)? ;)
Hmmm. Not so sure about this. I have three computers with three different ATI cards (Radeon 9600XT, Radeon 8500, Radeon 9200) from two different vendors all showing the same effect and I am the dummy? No, cannot think so. Maybe this is an issue of large monitors, as Curtis mentioned in his mail, too. I am using montitors like Elsa Ecomo 750 and large HP displays, the maximum (and "working") resolution setting is 1600x1200. Since my OS is not an Opensuse OS I did not search within the Opensuse bug tracking data base - maybe that was wrong.
I agree overall - the doc should be updated if this is a persistent or pervasive problem.
Where did you actually get the command line from?
See above. It stems from the README.SuSE that is being installed by the ATI driver. So, thanks for your commentary, but I am still convinced that there is a need for some apropriate documentation. Even more if there are differences between your suggestions and what is being written down in a README.SuSE distributed with the software. Putting modelines into a file with dotclocks of more than 0.4 GHz is questionable at least. The question is, who puts them into the xorg.conf and who is verifying plausibility. This is not transparent to me as the user. Once again: I did not report this for fun. And even though you seem to mistrust, there are other people perceiving similar issues. So, the lowest level of discussion would be to take things serious, isn't it? Take care Dieter Jurzitza -- ----------------------------------------------------------- | \ /_/\ | | ~x~ |/-----\ / \ /- _/ ^^__ _ / _ ____ / <°°__ - _/ | |/ | | || || _| _| _| _| if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font with constant spacing like courier! :-) -----------------------------------------------------------
Dieter, On Jan 02, 06 18:21:34 +0100, Dieter Jurzitza wrote:
sax2 -r -m 0=firegl -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
It should read sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx Nothing more. please take a look into /usr/share/doc/packages/firegl/README.SuSE as extracted from the latest ATI driver package (8.20.8, similar on older ones). I cite:
ATI fglrx driver configuration (including 3D support)
Switch to runlevel 3 ("init 3") and use the following command as user "root" to configure the ATI fglrx driver (including 3D support).
sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx -b /usr/share/doc/packages/fglrx/sax2-profile
On (open)SUSE 10.1 (Alpha) or later it's no longer required to specify the profile, so use "sax2 -r -m 0=fglrx" instead.
since I explicitly denoted that I am using SuSE 9.3 I cannot know about your suggestion. The doc references SuSE 10.1 which is - to all my knowledge - experimental. README.SuSE should be the reference, shouldn't it? So, please recheck with ATI on this if the README.SuSE is not in tune with what SuSE recommends.
Ok, sorry that I overread the 9.3 thing. In any case, it should read '-m 0=fglrx', not '-m 0=firegl'. In that case with the new ATI drivers the easiest thing is to use the command line given in the README.SuSE and delete all entries from the Modeline section (or better: the 'UseModes "Modes[0]" in the Monitor section) after configuration by hand (Do not 'test' the configuration, as this will crash the driver as well). Sorry, ATI had been notified about that severe bug well ahead of publication of their drivers (in fact, as soon as we stumbled upon it), but appearantly it hasn't been fixed. This is AFAIK nothing that can be easily changed with profiles, but maybe Marcus can comment on that.
is exactly what SuSE recommends for configuration - if this does not work, it should be considered a bug, isn't it?
It is a bug, not of our configuration system, but in the ATI drivers.
The thing you are experiencing is a bug in the fglrx driver. OpenSUSE bugzilla #115281. SL10.0 should work by not including any modelines.
I am listening to the xfree-mailing list for a while now, but I haven't seen any commentary there saying, "hey, if you run into this or that trouble, try this ...". Maybe some readme's with options what and how to test would be helpful, too.
If you havn't seen any tipps, then this might indicate that it just (TM) works (TM)? ;)
Hmmm. Not so sure about this. I have three computers with three different ATI cards (Radeon 9600XT, Radeon 8500, Radeon 9200) from two different vendors all showing the same effect and I am the dummy? No, cannot think so. Maybe this is an issue of large monitors, as Curtis mentioned in his mail, too. I am using montitors like Elsa Ecomo 750 and large HP displays, the maximum (and "working") resolution setting is 1600x1200.
In fact it is. If you read the bugzilla entry you will notice the 'when too many ModeLines are present' - which only happens for large resolutions and/or high refresh rates.
Since my OS is not an Opensuse OS I did not search within the Opensuse bug tracking data base - maybe that was wrong.
Actually, there is no OpenSUSE bugzilla - it's all in the Novell bugzilla now. Therefore all SUSE products are there as well.
Where did you actually get the command line from?
See above. It stems from the README.SuSE that is being installed by the ATI driver.
Thanks. I think the docs are actually ok.
So, thanks for your commentary, but I am still convinced that there is a need for some apropriate documentation. Even more if there are differences between your suggestions and what is being written down in a README.SuSE distributed with the software. Putting modelines into a file with dotclocks of more than 0.4 GHz is questionable at least. The question is, who puts them into the
Actually 'gtf 1600 1200 170' (1600x1200 at 170Hz as your Monitor *was* capable *if* it allowed for higher horizontal sync values) yields Modeline "1600x1200_170.00" 504.56 1600 1744 1920 2240 1200 1201 1204 1325 -HSync +Vsync The horizontal sync values are clearly too high - however, testing this is much easier in the driver, and all drivers do, and no driver *never* *ever* should just crash due to a high number of modelines.
Once again: I did not report this for fun. And even though you seem to mistrust, there are other people perceiving similar issues. So, the lowest level of discussion would be to take things serious, isn't it?
Remember that we are getting quite a number of incomplete, inserious, often downright false bug reports. Also consider, that on this channel you are talking to developers, not support stuff. Also consider, that we do not officially support binary only drivers like the fglrx drivers. For reasons like this report, where we have to take the blame for a major bug in binary only drivers - which we cannot change. In any case, submitting this to bugzilla will probably no good, as support for old (9.3) releases is on a low profile. And support for binary only drivers on these releases is effectively non-existent. No, that hasn't been my decision. We are just short of developers. I think I'll start a wiki section in the OpenSUSE wiki for documenting these issues. I hope this comes as close to a good documentation as possible. It will take some time, though. Matthias -- Matthias Hopf <mhopf@suse.de> __ __ __ Maxfeldstr. 5 / 90409 Nuernberg (_ | | (_ |__ mat@mshopf.de Phone +49-911-74053-715 __) |_| __) |__ labs www.mshopf.de
Matthias, thank you for the commentary - and I highly appreciate the plan to set up a WIKI page for the ATI driver. And still: I am willing to contribute whatever I can if only someone will coordinate things. I do not want SuSE to support anything they explicitly exclude from support - but I think that such issues need a commentary. So, put something in the README.SuSE that says: and if you run into this, delete that, do not test ... To end this thread: let me know how to help and I am willing to do my best. Ten lines of comments - like those you denoted in your last answer - would have saved me plenty of time, many reboots and so on. What regards 9.3: from a user standpoint this is a quite actual distribution. I depend on my system to run 24h a day - I do not have 10 of them - so, the main rule is: do not touch a running system :-). After more than 10 years of linux I think I know what I am talking about. This may differ from a developers standpoint, but that's another story. Take care Dieter Jurzitza Am Dienstag, 3. Januar 2006 12:29 schrieb Matthias Hopf: *****************
Ok, sorry that I overread the 9.3 thing. In any case, it should read '-m 0=fglrx', not '-m 0=firegl'. In that case with the new ATI drivers the easiest thing is to use the command line given in the README.SuSE and delete all entries from the Modeline section (or better: the 'UseModes "Modes[0]" in the Monitor section) after configuration by hand (Do not 'test' the configuration, as this will crash the driver as well).
**************** -- ----------------------------------------------------------- | \ /_/\ | | ~x~ |/-----\ / \ /- _/ ^^__ _ / _ ____ / <°°__ - _/ | |/ | | || || _| _| _| _| if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font with constant spacing like courier! :-) -----------------------------------------------------------
Dear listmembers, thanks to Curtis - his hint did the trick. Replacing the sax2 parameter "-r" (the SuSE recommendation) by "-x" everything works like a charm - for all releases of the ATI driver besides 8.19 - I threw this one out because 3D did not work. Curtis, thanks again, take care Dieter Am Freitag, 30. Dezember 2005 01:48 schrieb Curtis Rey:
On Thu December 29 2005 12:22, Dieter Jurzitza wrote: Hi Dieter. I was having the same problem and it seems to relate to the ¨-r¨ flag. You might want to try the ¨-x¨, or for myself, the ¨-V¨" (make
-- ----------------------------------------------------------- | \ /_/\ | | ~x~ |/-----\ / \ /- _/ ^^__ _ / _ ____ / <°°__ - _/ | |/ | | || || _| _| _| _| if you really want to see the pictures above - use some font with constant spacing like courier! :-) -----------------------------------------------------------
participants (4)
-
Curtis Rey -
Dieter Jurzitza -
Markus Kohm -
Matthias Hopf