On Monday 14 April 2008 06:11:05 pm Josh wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/Template:Official_Class_Section

gives me idea to create list of official categories that are monitored by wiki editors and list them in some way. Benefit is simple, if one wants to have article visible use official categories or include new category in the list.

This might be the way to limit problem of potentially unlimited number of categories and still have everybody free to contribute articles in the way they want.

The same is valid for Portal. Attempt to sort all articles by few wiki editors failed few times. I'll list in Portal page few portals that exist under that name, create or leave some that I'm interested in.

All articles go in alphabetic index stretched over few pages.

-- Regards, Rajko

First off, my apologies for not being very active lately. I have been busy with a lot of other work lately. I begin contributing more often again once summer comes around. I plan on trying to figure out a decent layout for the portal navigation and/or page layouts.

Official categories would probably be a good idea. It would be important for these categories to be "advertised" well so that people do not just go on creating new categories as they do now. I believe someone mentioned having a list of the categories on the edit pages. These official categories could be listed there.

Thanks for hanging around.

I guess that having link to http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Style_Guide http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Browse http://en.opensuse.org/Portal/Templates with very short explanation that they should be used as guidance will help a lot.

And categories in openSUSE:Browse would be the official ones.

As mentioned, no one can prevent users from creating new categories, the Wikipedia has tons of them, but with set of official categories wiki editors would have lesser to worry about. Message to users would be simple: If you want your article to be automatically listed in 'openSUSE Browse' than use provided categories.

The general idea is to limit wiki editors focus to some articles so that quality can be raised. New guys, when they come with question where they can help, should have answer, not as I used to say: "Look around and find what would you like to do."

On Monday 14 April 2008 09:08:49 pm Josh wrote:

Rajko M.

...

Thanks for hanging around.

I guess that having link to http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Style_Guide http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Browse http://en.opensuse.org/Portal/Templates with very short explanation that they should be used as guidance will help a lot.

And categories in openSUSE:Browse would be the official ones.

As mentioned, no one can prevent users from creating new categories, the Wikipedia has tons of them, but with set of official categories wiki editors would have lesser to worry about. Message to users would be simple: If you want your article to be automatically listed in 'openSUSE Browse' than use provided categories.

The general idea is to limit wiki editors focus to some articles so that quality can be raised. New guys, when they come with question where they can help, should have answer, not as I used to say: "Look around and find what would you like to do."

-- Regards, Rajko

This all sounds good. Now I'm wondering, seeing as though we do not have too many people focused on reorganizing the wiki, where do you think us few should concentrate our efforts first? Should we be working on this idea of official categories or focusing more on the portal?

Maybe once these two projects get going we can keep a running page of what portals need maintainers and what aspects of the wiki need work. This way, we can point new editors to this page and ask them to choose a focal point. I know there are many parts to the wiki and the list could easily get large, but we could at least have some main sections and most definitely a list of the unmaintained portals.

We can focus on openSUSE:Browse first, though if some idea comes about Portal nothing forbids to implement it on the fly. Important is to set limited number of elements that we can work on, just as Frank mentioned. Although I would not spend much time to find which are the most important, as I already attempted to do. With few editors for all tasks, we have to see how to improve, if necessary, openSUSE browse, and that is all. When time comes it can be rebuild from scratch.

However, in my opinion, major task is to create environment where someone that is asking what to do have an answer. I have to look for examples in other places. Someone had that problem and it has some solution. We can't advertise participation without having some tasks to offer, having tools and standards in place.

For instance this looks good: http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/new.html

This is example what I meant as smaller tasks that belong to big project: http://groupware.openoffice.org/glow/dev/opentasks.html

There is many more pages listed with query "openoffice open tasks"

Than this can help with idea about ownership of tasks/projects: http://www.mozilla.org/owners.html If someone has a question about particular topic it is possible to find with whom to talk.

The Wikipedia idea works because there is huge number of topics and every contributor can find something that interesting. The openSUSE wiki is different, with many more users that are starting with Linux. Just stating that they can contribute is not good enough. We have to identify tasks for them.

On Tuesday 15 April 2008 12:50:12 pm Josh wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

We can focus on openSUSE:Browse first, though if some idea comes about Portal

nothing forbids to implement it on the fly. Important is to set limited number of elements that we can work on, just as Frank mentioned. Although I would not spend much time to find which are the most important, as I already attempted to do. With few editors for all tasks, we have to see how to improve, if necessary, openSUSE browse, and that is all. When time comes it can be rebuild from scratch.

However, in my opinion, major task is to create environment where someone that is asking what to do have an answer. I have to look for examples in other places. Someone had that problem and it has some solution. We can't advertise participation without having some tasks to offer, having tools and standards in place.

For instance this looks good: http://www.openoffice.org/about_us/new.html

This is example what I meant as smaller tasks that belong to big project: http://groupware.openoffice.org/glow/dev/opentasks.html

There is many more pages listed with query "openoffice open tasks"

Than this can help with idea about ownership of tasks/projects: http://www.mozilla.org/owners.html If someone has a question about particular topic it is possible to find with whom to talk.

The Wikipedia idea works because there is huge number of topics and every contributor can find something that interesting. The openSUSE wiki is different, with many more users that are starting with Linux. Just stating that they can contribute is not good enough. We have to identify tasks for them.

-- Regards, Rajko

Ok so what will we be using as our official categories? Are we going to use what is on openSUSE:Popular_Topics/Hierarchy or something more condensed?

That Mozilla owners page is very close to what I was talking about in my last e-mail! Very cool, that would be a good way to allow users to know what portals/categories need owners, peers and who to contact.

Sure. The names and duties on every project are IMHO very important. Many of us would like to help, but don't want to jump in the middle of someone's work and mess with it, so people would like to know whom to ask what has to be done. OpenOffice has in similar way as Mozilla, list contacts and open tasks in every project.

Getting content that will guide new editors to what needs work and what categories to use is good, but what will we be doing about our existing mess? We will slowly be prevented new problems but we still have yet to solve problems with how the categories will be used, getting editors, etc.

That is a very good question and remark. I have the same feeling that without more people editing wiki in some systematic way, we are going nowhere, slowly sinking. Number of contributions is growing which is the goal, but missing meta information about wiki, about creating and editing articles, help files that explain how to do something in consonant way with others, ways to split big tasks in smaller, track execution, and many more things that I, even, can't name will prevent us to recruit editors that not so much time on their hands.

Are we going to just at least get the articles in the openSUSE:Popular_Topics categorized under the official categories? This would probably be a good idea and it wouldn't take all that long. Then the pages that are most wanted will be easy to find because they will be properly categorized. Then with these new pages to guide new editors, hopefully all new pages will be properly categorized.

That is idea too. Create something and than ask others what can be done better, and improve interactively.

Looking on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Popular_Topics: * 1 About openSUSE This seems to be a good name for meta information on anything openSUSE (project, distribution, wiki, community, <what else?>) * 2 Application Descriptions Maybe to name it 'Software Reviews' ? That is what we actually need, as description can be picked up from application development web page. Our original contribution would be some review. I tried to write some directions in http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Writing_Software_Overview but it has to be checked by someone that really wrote reviews. Hmm, Zonker?

* 3 Community Part of this should go in Community subcategory of About openSUSE. I marked what looks like meta information and should go in About openSUSE. Maybe some articles would need also Participate subcategory.

o 3.1 Communicate o 3.2 Meetings o 3.3 News o 3.4 Participate o 3.5 Policies and Guidelines -> About openSUSE o 3.6 Projects -> About openSUSE o 3.7 Teams -> About openSUSE o 3.8 Wishlists * 4 Development I have to check some wiki pages for subcategories here, but in general project leads should comment on this. One more reason to have them listed in the way Mozilla or OpenOffice do that. Actually some information exists, but it should be checked how complete and accurate it is. _____________________________________________________

This few are probably most wanted.

* 5 Downloading o 5.1 Factory o 5.2 Release * 6 Hardware o 6.1 HCL * 7 Help o 7.1 FAQs o 7.2 HOWTOs * 8 Install openSuSE * 9 Multimedia and Graphics o 9.1 Branding o 9.2 Eyecandy and Graphics * 10 Software Management o 10.1 Repositories o 10.2 YaST o 10.3 Zypper o 10.4 Other * 11 YaST or Administration

I have to continue this tomorrow. Please review this and give your opinion.

Once all of this gets rolling I think it would be a good idea to come back to the portal.

Agree.

On Tuesday 22 April 2008 02:07:42 pm Josh wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

Sure. The names and duties on every project are IMHO very important. Many of us would like to help, but don't want to jump in the middle of someone's work and mess with it, so people would like to know whom to ask what has to be done. OpenOffice has in similar way as Mozilla, list contacts and open tasks in every project.

...

Getting content that will guide new editors to what needs work and what categories to use is good, but what will we be doing about our existing mess? We will slowly be prevented new problems but we still have yet to solve problems with how the categories will be used, getting editors, etc.

That is a very good question and remark. I have the same feeling that without more people editing wiki in some systematic way, we are going nowhere, slowly sinking. Number of contributions is growing which is the goal, but missing meta information about wiki, about creating and editing articles, help files that explain how to do something in consonant way with others, ways to split big tasks in smaller, track execution, and many more things that I, even, can't name will prevent us to recruit editors that not so much time on their hands.

...

Are we going to just at least get the articles in the openSUSE:Popular_Topics categorized under the official categories? This would probably be a good idea and it wouldn't take all that long. Then the pages that are most wanted will be easy to find because they will be properly categorized. Then with these new pages to guide new editors, hopefully all new pages will be properly categorized.

That is idea too. Create something and than ask others what can be done better, and improve interactively.

Looking on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Popular_Topics: * 1 About openSUSE This seems to be a good name for meta information on anything openSUSE (project, distribution, wiki, community, <what else?>) * 2 Application Descriptions Maybe to name it 'Software Reviews' ? That is what we actually need, as description can be picked up from application development web page. Our original contribution would be some review. I tried to write some directions in http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Writing_Software_Overview but it has to be checked by someone that really wrote reviews. Hmm, Zonker?

* 3 Community

Part of this should go in Community subcategory of About openSUSE. I marked what looks like meta information and should go in About openSUSE. Maybe some articles would need also Participate subcategory.

      o 3.1 Communicate
      o 3.2 Meetings
      o 3.3 News
      o 3.4 Participate
      o 3.5 Policies and Guidelines -> About openSUSE
      o 3.6 Projects  -> About openSUSE
      o 3.7 Teams  -> About openSUSE
      o 3.8 Wishlists
* 4 Development

I have to check some wiki pages for subcategories here, but in general project leads should comment on this. One more reason to have them listed in the way Mozilla or OpenOffice do that. Actually some information exists, but it should be checked how complete and accurate it is. _____________________________________________________

This few are probably most wanted.

* 5 Downloading
      o 5.1 Factory
      o 5.2 Release
* 6 Hardware
      o 6.1 HCL
* 7 Help
      o 7.1 FAQs
      o 7.2 HOWTOs
* 8 Install openSuSE
* 9 Multimedia and Graphics
      o 9.1 Branding
      o 9.2 Eyecandy and Graphics
* 10 Software Management
      o 10.1 Repositories
      o 10.2 YaST
      o 10.3 Zypper
      o 10.4 Other
* 11 YaST or Administration

I have to continue this tomorrow. Please review this and give your opinion.

...

Once all of this gets rolling I think it would be a good idea to come back to the portal.

Agree.

-- Regards, Rajko http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands.

It does seem very important that we try to get the project management pages in place so that new editors know who to contact and what to work on. This means that we need to get those willing to lead these project sections.

Yes. We can start with our project.

I guess adding the public recognition, something like article of the month (week, new, best edit, best layout) can attract some attention. Though, this should be posted on/linked from Welcome page, something like the best of the openSUSE wiki. Martin? Frank? Your opinion?

On the topic of the "Software Reviews" category: Within the wiki, there are many pages that are just application descriptions, this is probably due to them being linked to all from all over. These pages are sometimes too short and just duplicates what the application development pages ays, while others have decent content that links to howtos and such. If we can get these pages cleaned up and also get some decent reviews so that we may have original content, I think we can just rename the Category to Applications.

I agree. Though cleanup is too much for 1 (you) and 1/2 typist (me). Let's see how that can work on few applications.

This way, each page for an application will have an overview of a project, links to howtos, SDB entries as well as reviews for the application. This would be somewhat like a mini portal page for each application.

Good idea. YaST portal would be good example, the only thing I don't like is excessive use of subpages. It gives ugly titles that look like path to file not a title.

Perhaps we can try to combine the Category Hierarchy and Popular Topics ideas into a unified structure. They aren't that different though. What I will do (maybe this weekend), is try to take the categories in the popular topics and make sure they are visible on openSUSE:Browse as well as make sure they have the right hierarchy as show in the hierarchy page. In doing so, we will at least have the popular topics categorized correctly, and have those categories in the proper layout.

OK. I'm not sure how much time I will have this weekend, and the week is sold out.