jdd wrote:

Rajko M wrote:

...

Is this regular user with strange taste, or something else. Check where links will lead: http://en.opensuse.org/User:Joer80

More editors are coming, and more guys with similar taste for links will come. It seems that guides have to be expanded.

http://en.opensuse.org/Special:Contributions/Joer80

seems rather normal.

may be we must clear a rule for the user page content, knowing that this page have the same viewing as normal page

jdd

I meant to check links on the page listed under personal links. User page is his/her introduction and it is pretty much off limits for the rules about content of other pages. My attention pulled that all links contain words that are classic content of spam emails. Article Directory Free Auction Templates Liability Car Insurance Retirement Income Planning -- Regards, Rajko. Visit http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Orn E. Hansen wrote:

söndaginn 16 juli 2006 13:55 skrev Rajko M:

...

Article Directory Free Auction Templates Liability Car Insurance Retirement Income Planning

The attitude of wanting to "ban" people because what they link up, is offensive, in my opinion. I am not going to open his links, as I'm not interested in what they say.

This isn't kindergarten.

sorry but this is _your_ attitude. no page on a wiki is private, not either so called "personal pages", and any wiki page, including personal, are indexed by Google and such. most wiki vandalism is made of page of links for illegal medecine, sex drugs and so. the goal is to have them linked by google with a High rate (based of the link frequency). This is not SPAM, but similar bad behavior. so we must have a policy. usual one is to allow any user to give on his personal page a link to his own web site (where what he do is no more our problem), but no kind of link that can be seen like an advertisement... but of course this is my own advice. I was thinking there is something about this on the wiki, but I can't find it :-( don't forget anybody can write on a personal page (not only the "owner"). jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 11:45:20PM +0200, Orn E. Hansen wrote:

This isn't kindergarten ...

... that is the reason the OP asked what others were thinking. -- houghi If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Rajko M wrote:

I meant to check links on the page listed under personal links.

I understood that. but I can see a difference with a regular user writing advertisement for his own industry on the wiki (bad, but anybody could remove the link with some gentle words of explanation) and people (may be robots) opening pages in the only goal of writing mass links (vandalism) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Jonathan Arson wrote:

This absolutely IS SPAM ... anything linking to a link farm is in my book spam ... Now tell me how this user should be allowed to link LINK FARM on opensuse.org on the pretext of doing it in his home dir...

any forgiven thing should be noted somewhere. As I didn't find such a page in the wiki, I begun to write one: http://en.opensuse.org/Wiki_Personal_Pages but this is very preliminary and I hope many others will contribute jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 02:03:35PM -0500, Rajko M wrote:

BTW, I didn't click on links, but walk around with copy and paste, to avoid some new inventive way for email and active IP harvesting.

From the day the male foetus' hands grow long enough to grasp at their 'third leg', until the man in question is dead and buried, the penis is a constant

1) How should they be able to learn your email by clicking on a link? 2) What good is IP harvesting? Ik can give you all possible IP adresses you desire: [0-255].[0-255].[0-255].[0-255] Just curious. -- source of amusement and amazement to those of the male gender. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A219061 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 03:55:52PM -0500, Rajko M wrote:

It is not long time ago that I learned why they like html format, and how they get confirmation that your email address is active if you just open the mail. No need to click any link, it is not a virus, and you get spammed.

Old news. :-) I have never used an HTML enabled emailclient. That however is still things you get over SMTP, not via browsing with your browser. The only thing that could happen is if you tell your browser to send your own emailadress when connecting to an anonymous FTP site.

The IP address and email. Well the idea came from emails without any reference to mail address in the header that I received. How come? Mail server misconfiguration, bug or something else, sorry I'm not in the trade so I can't answer, but I was looking in a (raw) header and I believe that it is possible.

I don't. I have seen header spoofing, but I have always seen where a mail orignated. I realy would be interested in seeing such a header.

Now, if I suspect that I have data miners on the other side, I simply go around as much as I can.

From the day the male foetus' hands grow long enough to grasp at their 'third leg', until the man in question is dead and buried, the penis is a constant

Datamining is not something that spammers are realy interested in anymore. They just send it to any account they think might be valid. And for the few times I need to use a temporary account, I use houghi.spam@gmail.com :-) -- source of amusement and amazement to those of the male gender. http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A219061 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 08:38:01PM -0500, Rajko M wrote:

I overdue often enough, anyway, in order to save my mail box from spam.

spamassasin with some procmail solves about 99.9% of my spam problem. I see about 1 or 2 spams per day. -- houghi If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On 7/17/06, Jonathan Arson wrote:

This absolutely IS SPAM ... anything linking to a link farm is in my book spam ... Now tell me how this user should be allowed to link LINK FARM on opensuse.org on the pretext of doing it in his home dir...

I agree. The issue right now however is that the comment on that page is also not acceptable: "...i don't care that this is your user page you still are on opensuse.org and i would consider this NOT to be acceptable content.--John_Arson" Says who! John Arson the Vigilante? Under what authority? Because he believes so. This would lead to chaos, if we continued this way. It makes it personal, would lead to escalation as people get offended. This comment should have been neutral (this user may have what he thinks is a valid business model, and is a SUSE user with useful contributions), the message should be that he is welcome but not his links. I would have put a comment as follows: Please note that the links you recently added have been removed as they breach the Terms of Site for commercial solicitation. The Terms of site are available here: http://en.opensuse.org/Terms_of_Site Of course I suspect that we will never see this user again, and it was created just to create links to his sites, to improve link ranking in Google. But that should never be the assumption when dealing with users. We must have a friendly inviting atmosphere on our wiki, this means that a code of conduct applies to us regulars just as much as the newbies, in fact more because we have no excuse. Pflodo Peter Flodin. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On 7/17/06, houghi wrote:

...

Please note that the links you recently added have been removed as they breach the Terms of Site for commercial solicitation. The Terms of site are available here: http://en.opensuse.org/Terms_of_Site

Where does it state what site I am and am not allowed to link to?

It only does this vaguely and only when in competition with Novell: "You may not post or transmit through this web site advertising or commercial solicitations; promotional materials relating to web site or online services which are competitive with Novell and/or this web site; software or other materials that contain viruses, worms, time bombs, Trojan horses, or other harmful or disruptive component, political campaign materials; chain letters; mass mailings, spam mail, any robot, spider, site search/retrieval application, or other manual or automatic device or process to retrieve, index, "data mine", or in any way reproduce or circumvent the navigational structure or presentation of this web site or its contents." My point however was that wiki guideline enforcement should not be personal. eg "I deleted this because I don't think it should be here" type comments. They should only be enforcing published guidelines, if there are no guidelines you can't really blame the contributor.

Without asking the person, you have no idea what the reason was he placed those links there and only the openSUSE.org webmaster has the right to remove them (and the user, if need be)

You talk about rights. This is a wiki, and all text unless protected can be edited without permission from the original author. period. no further discussion necessary. This is agreed by the original author when they submitted their text. "Please note that all contributions to openSUSE may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here." Now it may be considered rude and break other social rules, but I or anybody else has the right to edit any text they want. I will agree and it is the point I have been trying to make, that communication is important, and people should be given the benefit of the doubt in regards to their intention. The wiki needs to be a friendly place, it is a big place, and lots of activity has no impact on the prupose of the wiki. If we all spent this time editing the wiki rather than talking about stuff, it would be the most constructive outcome. Pflodo Peter Flodin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On 7/16/06, houghi wrote:

So if you see something that you think is inaproprate, then you should file a complaint. What happens if I place a link to houghi.org solely to get a higher ranking?

Done under your own user page that would not bother me at all (unless your selling viagra, insurance and/or credit card on that site then i dont care who you are i would erase hem all the same)

On 7/16/06, Peter Flodin wrote:

Of course I suspect that we will never see this user again, and it was created just to create links to his sites, to improve link ranking in Google. But that should never be the assumption when dealing with users.

Duh !!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 16 Jul 2006, Rajko M wrote:

Jonathan Arson wrote:

...

On 7/16/06, Peter Flodin wrote:

...

Of course I suspect that we will never see this user again, and it was created just to create links to his sites, to improve link ranking in Google. But that should never be the assumption when dealing with users.

Duh !!

Jonathan,

you are the opensuse.org user just anyone else here.

Acting with respect to others feelings and opinions is important anywhere, specially on the wiki. If you don't care about viagra sellers, you'll find many that agree with you, but breaking the neighbors window because his party is too noisy is not the best way to solve the problem.

All here consider links inappropriate, but this guy is not first that came with "original" ideas, and surely not the last. Help us to establish criteria what is appropriate and what not, that will help site administrators to act promptly. I'm long enough here to know that they trying to be invisible, but they are here and act according to established rules.

First: like others said befor, it's not SPAM, its his page, and you don't need to click on them, so no problem. second: yes, just beeing here for google-ranks is not the idea so what to do with it? conclusion: If there is the user only here for goggle-ranking or something like this, 1) make the user inactive after some time of inaktivity 2) if his/her only aktivity is to just activate again, delete him/her reason: this is a community. To be member of a community means activity. No activity, no member, no personal page. greetings, anniyka - -- \ Anniyka Wandersmann :: Technische Leiterin \ Parkstr. 20 :: Phone: +49-911-25569449 \ 90449 Nuremberg :: Mobile: +49-163-8766206 \ Germany :: Fax: +49-911-8173374 \ /\ \ / \ ____________________________________________________________ \/ \/ A N D E R S M A N N . N E T :: wir gehen fuer sie ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEuzVF0UZdMosWNssRAheLAKDgZ7HZCExSjVgN8dGbfTY147eBlwCeIYCl W0wk5L7DuHEMLbwjxhNoaek= =pvzj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Jonathan Arson wrote:

IT IS(was) SPAM, i you had ever maintened any web site and been hit by the same god damnned page this luser was pasting you would also consider it the same way.... thats not even a question of respect or whatever.

SPAM is something you get unwanted, this is your own click, don't blame other people for it. If you click on it, it's your own fault If he is hiding the links, it can be considerd trickery but it's NOT! SPAM. He has the right to tell all the people his opinions and to show about his belives and livestyle. An OpenSorce Communitiy should take this serious. On the other side as I said befor, this is a community and if we don't like members doing nothing, we also have the right to throw him out. For this he just have to prove of doing nothing. So what's the problem, don't make it mor complicate than it is. Don't click and if he's doing nothing, throw him out. If you had problems with this websites befor, than it's a problem of you OUTSIDE this community. Don't make it a problem of the community. And by the way, I AM maintaining Websites and it's so much work that I don't even get my own ready ... anniyka

- -- \ Anniyka Wandersmann :: Technische Leiterin \ Parkstr. 20 :: Phone: +49-911-25569449 \ 90449 Nuremberg :: Mobile: +49-163-8766206 \ Germany :: Fax: +49-911-8173374 \ /\ http://www.wandersmann.net :: email: info@wandersmann.net \ / \ ____________________________________________________________ \/ \/ A N D E R S M A N N . N E T :: wir gehen fuer sie ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEu0sO0UZdMosWNssRAgYRAKDyIOoEmNL808uRbzm6NnrrpcHDVQCdFpdj 7nNKyujWahK17T3wyVfPVR8= =vAwo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 17 Jul 2006, Rajko M wrote:

Thanks for the mail Anniyka.

I'm sorry to disagree, and the reason is that guys trying to boost their rankings on search engines using wikies need just what you proposal gives them, the time. They count on that they will be removed and later is better.

Well, I know that, but as I pointed out, the person has to prove that he is only there for ranking. Someone who is willingly to work has the right to express himself.

The best that we can do without breaking the glass is to give site administrators the tool, our agreement written in policy, to remove such content, and if user is persistent his/her account too.

Removing the account is easy, just write something about unused accounts will first be inaktivated and later on deleted.

In this case problem was that it was personal page, for any other I will remove links without thinking a second. The way it is done tells that this guy has experience with posting such rubbish to wikies. He posted where it will hold the longest, until we discuss the matter.

I understood this, but I really think, that the Problem is, that the person has the right to do so but he looses the right by just using the community for himself what is just beeing inaktive. I think, a solution here would be, someone can put in links on his personal page as he want, but without activity the links will just filtert out. That's in addition to the inactivation and removal above. greetings anniyka - -- \ Anniyka Wandersmann :: Technische Leiterin \ Parkstr. 20 :: Phone: +49-911-25569449 \ 90449 Nuremberg :: Mobile: +49-163-8766206 \ Germany :: Fax: +49-911-8173374 \ /\ http://www.wandersmann.net :: email: info@wandersmann.net \ / \ ____________________________________________________________ \/ \/ A N D E R S M A N N . N E T :: wir gehen fuer sie ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEu22s0UZdMosWNssRAqvEAJ9EnppUZ4G+abPoppO9NY5TYksaywCeLh3n uaSPengqwz+WWqMfv3a4iJo= =y/XE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 01:45:32PM +0200, jdd wrote:

Rajko M wrote:

...

In this case problem was that it was personal page, for any other I will remove links without thinking a second. The way it is done tells that this guy has experience with posting such rubbish to wikies. He posted where it will hold the longest, until we discuss the matter.

things may even be worst. Once deleted, the text is not really deleted but archived (see history).

I don't know for sure if the robots can index the oldest pages (I hope they can't).

only the site admin can delete entirely the page (or the history) and this is not trivial AFAIK.

So we come back to what I posted earlier. If you feel there is abuse on a personal page, you inform the webmaster and he should decide what should happen. I could put the source of libdvdcss on my page. That would most likely be removed. I could link to spamsites, should that bve removed? I could link to porn sites. How about those? What about linking to my own site? What if my linking to my personal website is only to get my rankings up? For a personal page, I would prefere it to be inpossible for others to edit it andhave the sysadmin, a comity, the abuse department or some other official(s) decide what should be doe if a complaint comes in for a personal website. For that to be working, there should be rules of what is and what is not allowed on these *personal* pages. -- houghi If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 02:50:48PM +0200, jdd wrote:

houghi wrote:

...

So we come back to what I posted earlier. If you feel there is abuse on a personal page, you inform the webmaster and he should decide what should happen.

the webmaster have probably better to do than this, ask him only in last ressort

As that is the person whose email is give and the procedure to follow, that is what I would use, untill the community and/or Novell (the webmaster) decides this should be done differently.

...

I could put the source of libdvdcss on my page. That would most likely be removed.

probably too long for a page :-)

Ok, not libdvdcss, but what about DeCSS: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ Many examples that could easily fit on one page.

What if my linking to my personal website is only to get my rankings

...

up?

this I don't mind.

So then there is no problem with the persons website, because he did the same thing.

this is not the wiki way of life. No other censorship than that of other's feeling :-)

These are personal pages. The 'wiki way of life' inclused the inability to change certain pages for whatever reason. This means I can not change certain pages. I would think it to be normal that I can not change user pages.

...

For that to be working, there should be rules of what is and what is not allowed on these *personal* pages.

agreed so I made the http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Wiki_Personal_Pages (and nobody else edited it for now)

Because there is no real reason to do so. -- houghi If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

Peter Flodin wrote:

We must have a friendly inviting atmosphere on our wiki, this means that a code of conduct applies to us regulars just as much as the newbies, in fact more because we have no excuse.

thats the fact :-). We must educate, and educate again :-) (and AFAIK a ":-)" is not a sarcasm but a smyley, a friendly smile) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

houghi wrote:

On Sun, Jul 16, 2006 at 05:04:20PM +0200, Orn E. Hansen wrote:

...

SPAM means Send Phenominal Amount of Mail ... and exclusively means such activity. Someone putting "links" on his or her is not equivalent to SPAM.

I agree with your point of view, however SPAM does not mean what you say it means. It is not an abrviation.

Welcome back houghi. Here one can buy canned ground meat branded Spam. People consider that as junk food, and first junk email were called spam to depict quality of such emails. -- Regards, Rajko. Visit http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org

söndaginn 16 juli 2006 17:25 skrev houghi:

I agree with your point of view, however SPAM does not mean what you say it means. It is not an abrviation.

Send Phenominal Amount of Mail, that is it's original meaning. In ancient computer times, 60's, 70's and 80's when network connection was limited and expensive. This behaviour was assumed abusive ... still is. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki-help@opensuse.org