[opensuse-wiki] Namespaces on wiki.o.o

Thomas Schmidt

4 Mar 2010 4 Mar '10

12:58

Hi, I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them. They are now at http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/... which means we use the colon only after the configured namespaces, openSUSE in this case. Is this the correct way we want to do this? Greetings -- Thomas Schmidt (tom [at] opensuse.org) openSUSE Boosters Team "Don't Panic", Douglas Adams (1952 - 11.05.2001) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

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Jon Rocker

4 Mar 4 Mar

14:47

When I open the page I see this: openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/

...

From openSUSE

There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page. On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 05:58, Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...

Hi, I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

They are now at http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/... which means we use the colon only after the configured namespaces, openSUSE in this case. Is this the correct way we want to do this?

Greetings

-- Thomas Schmidt (tom [at] opensuse.org) openSUSE Boosters Team "Don't Panic", Douglas Adams (1952 - 11.05.2001) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rémy Marquis

14:55

You should remove the ending slash. The correct URL is openSUSE:Tools/Openfate Regards, R. On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Jon Rocker wrote:

...

When I open the page I see this:

openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/ From openSUSE

There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or edit this page.

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 05:58, Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...
Hi, I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

They are now at http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/... which means we use the colon only after the configured namespaces, openSUSE in this case. Is this the correct way we want to do this?

Greetings

-- Thomas Schmidt (tom [at] opensuse.org) openSUSE Boosters Team "Don't Panic", Douglas Adams (1952 - 11.05.2001) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

5 Mar 5 Mar

05:41

On Thursday 04 March 2010 06:58:21 Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...

Hi, I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

They are now at http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/... which means we use the colon only after the configured namespaces, openSUSE in this case. Is this the correct way we want to do this?

Greetings

I started to collect information about software that we decided to use for our wiki to help myself understand the principles that are used to create it. That article is still not finished, but your question about correct way needs answer now, so there is what I have by now. All started with my aversion to subpages and attempts to explain problems. It seems that in all mails on that topic I captured the most of what is described in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Subpages/Archive which is linked from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Subpages Easy to guess titles which allow users to create, what they call, "accidental linking" is very important for wiki type of web sites, as they allow to link article without searching for exact title. Article title must be able to fit in any sentence as natural human expression, any other form that must be translated using, for instance, [[xyz|how to find xyz]] is not good. What we did in old wiki that to "hide" articles, or to make linking unnecessary work intensive? Many things. * Book style capitalization, where link must be translated to fit in sentence and the only change is to make upper case letters lower case. * Using slash in a title (subpages) that must be translated making hard to guess actual title, specially when there is 3 or more levels of subpages. One has to search trough a lot of listings to get to the article. * Using special abbreviations that are not widely known, in some cases even self coined ones. * Created titles that are used in many topics, forcing wiki editors to create disambiguation pages and move article around. The list is bigger then above, and sincerely I have mu share in created problems, but that doesn't mean that I should not try to correct mistakes. So, openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/ is no go, IMHO. What would be better? (it doesn't mean it is optimal) Make http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools that is currently empty page index of all tools, and for now enter only one item openSUSE:openFATE. Another option is to use Main namespace as openFATE is something that users should know about, it is their tool to communicate ideas to developers. Ditto, create page http://wiki.opensuse.org/Tools that will list different categories of tools, among them those for Feedback to developers, bug reporting tool, bugzilla and feature request tool. Another option is not to call that only tools, but also services. Bug reporting tool bugzilla provides service, the same is openFATE, and so on. From user perspective it would be more natural to call both services, while for developers it can be good to call them tools, as they probably look for software description of the tools that provides certain service. Using this thread as opportunity, I would like to call for real discussion how to organize access to information, as that is what was missing in current en.o.o wiki and at the end it led to mess. So better to start discussion now then to repeat all this in few years. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

12:32

On Thursday 04 March 2010 23:41:55 Rajko M. wrote:

...

Make http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools that is currently empty page index of all tools, and for now enter only one item openSUSE:openFATE.

Another option is to use Main namespace as openFATE is something that users should know about, it is their tool to communicate ideas to developers. Ditto, create page http://wiki.opensuse.org/Tools that will list different categories of tools, among them those for Feedback to developers, bug reporting tool, bugzilla and feature request tool.

Another option is not to call that only tools, but also services. Bug reporting tool bugzilla provides service, the same is openFATE, and so on. From user perspective it would be more natural to call both services, while for developers it can be good to call them tools, as they probably look for software description of the tools that provides certain service.

In all above I did not mention that Category:Tools and Category:Services are the best place for lists of articles about both. Then list (link) category as index of all articles. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Thomas Schmidt

14:25

On 03/05/2010 06:41 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 04 March 2010 06:58:21 Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...
Hi, I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

They are now at http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/... which means we use the colon only after the configured namespaces, openSUSE in this case. Is this the correct way we want to do this?

Greetings

I started to collect information about software that we decided to use for our wiki to help myself understand the principles that are used to create it. That article is still not finished, but your question about correct way needs answer now, so there is what I have by now.

All started with my aversion to subpages and attempts to explain problems. It seems that in all mails on that topic I captured the most of what is described in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Subpages/Archive which is linked from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Subpages

Easy to guess titles which allow users to create, what they call, "accidental linking" is very important for wiki type of web sites, as they allow to link article without searching for exact title. Article title must be able to fit in any sentence as natural human expression, any other form that must be translated using, for instance, [[xyz|how to find xyz]] is not good.

What we did in old wiki that to "hide" articles, or to make linking unnecessary work intensive? Many things. * Book style capitalization, where link must be translated to fit in sentence and the only change is to make upper case letters lower case. * Using slash in a title (subpages) that must be translated making hard to guess actual title, specially when there is 3 or more levels of subpages. One has to search trough a lot of listings to get to the article. * Using special abbreviations that are not widely known, in some cases even self coined ones. * Created titles that are used in many topics, forcing wiki editors to create disambiguation pages and move article around.

The list is bigger then above, and sincerely I have mu share in created problems, but that doesn't mean that I should not try to correct mistakes.

So, openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/ is no go, IMHO.

What would be better? (it doesn't mean it is optimal)

Make http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools that is currently empty page index of all tools, and for now enter only one item openSUSE:openFATE.

Ok, so I will move the page to openSUSE:openFATE. It was created at openSUSE:Tools/... because I read in a mail in the archive that this would be the place for openSUSE related tools. But the subpages are ok in openSUSE:openFATE/Faq for example? Greetings -- Thomas Schmidt (tom [at] opensuse.org) openSUSE Boosters Team "Don't Panic", Douglas Adams (1952 - 11.05.2001) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

6 Mar 6 Mar

13:54

Hi, On 03/05/2010 06:41 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Thursday 04 March 2010 06:58:21 Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...
I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

[...] So, openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/ is no go, IMHO.

What would be better? (it doesn't mean it is optimal)

Make http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools that is currently empty page index of all tools, and for now enter only one item openSUSE:openFATE.

Yeah everybody (including me) tries to use URLs as sorting mechanism which is pretty stupid because you never have all the URLs at hand. But instead of openSUSE:Tools we should make Portal:Tools and guide through that. Its the perfect topic for a portal. So Main page -> Portal:Development -> Portal:Tools -> openSUSE:openFATE.

...

Another option is to use Main namespace as openFATE is something that users should know about

Again, please leave the main namespace to the product pages of the current distribution. openFATE is by no means important for users of the distribution! Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Rajko M.

22:15

On Saturday 06 March 2010 07:54:40 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

Hi,

On 03/05/2010 06:41 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Thursday 04 March 2010 06:58:21 Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...
I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them.

[...]

...
So, openSUSE:Tools/Openfate/ is no go, IMHO.

What would be better? (it doesn't mean it is optimal)

Make http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Tools that is currently empty page index of all tools, and for now enter only one item openSUSE:openFATE.

Yeah everybody (including me) tries to use URLs as sorting mechanism which is pretty stupid because you never have all the URLs at hand.

:) Although I'm very loud against that practice, I have to think to avoid it. It appears so easy to understand, but it produces so many problems that Wikipedia removed it from Main namespace, but not (Main)Talk namespace. For those not familiar with use of namespace in MediaWiki software: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Namespace

...

But instead of openSUSE:Tools we should make Portal:Tools and guide through that. Its the perfect topic for a portal. So Main page -> Portal:Development -> Portal:Tools -> openSUSE:openFATE.

...

...
Another option is to use Main namespace as openFATE is something that users should know about

Again, please leave the main namespace to the product pages of the current distribution.

:) I agree on Main. It will make it relative small, but we can extend purpose of Help namespace. To me it makes perfect sense to use Help: for all articles that talk about distro/project infrastructure. At the same time we need a more detailed list of topics that should go to the Main as right now with "current distribution" as definition, even I'm puzzled what exactly should go there, as you may noticed from previous post.

...

openFATE is by no means important for users of the distribution!

It seems that our understanding of "users of the distribution" is not the same :) The openFATE as metaphor for discussions about distro features is not important to passive users, but for those that want more it is the way to ask questions and learn about distribution, in other words to participate with something that everyone understand, and that is how majority of contributors started. All articles can be listed in Portal:openFATE, but access to that portal should additionally go trough Portal:Distribution > Portal:Services, or if there will be not too many entries then directly trough Portal:Distribution > panel about services that openSUSE provides to users.

...

Henne

-- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

7 Mar 7 Mar

11:50

Hi, On 03/06/2010 11:15 PM, Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 06 March 2010 07:54:40 Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...
On 03/05/2010 06:41 AM, Rajko M. wrote:

...
On Thursday 04 March 2010 06:58:21 Thomas Schmidt wrote:

...
I transferred the openFATE pages to the new wiki, and briefly discussed with henne where to put them. [...] Another option is to use Main namespace as openFATE is something that users should know about

Again, please leave the main namespace to the product pages of the current distribution.

:) I agree on Main. It will make it relative small, but we can extend purpose of Help namespace. To me it makes perfect sense to use Help: for all articles that talk about distro/project infrastructure.

Nope. Help is for meta documentation about the wiki itself. Remember: - Distribution Product Pages (main) - Everything for consumers - Project Pages (openSUSE:) - Everything for contributors - Wiki Documentation (Help:) - Everything for wiki contributors

...

At the same time we need a more detailed list of topics that should go to the Main as right now with "current distribution" as definition, even I'm puzzled what exactly should go there, as you may noticed from previous post.

We have a lot of distro information in the wiki (OpenSUSE_11.2, Product_Highlights/11.2, Screenshots/11.2, SDB, HCL, Buy_openSUSE, etc. etc.) so we should use the main namespace to present the distribution to people who want to learn about it. Answer the question: When and where can it do what for who? And how/why does it do it?

...

...
openFATE is by no means important for users of the distribution!

It seems that our understanding of "users of the distribution" is not the same :)

For me a User is a consumer of what we do. It is the category where _everyone_ belongs to. The distribution is our main product so the biggest group we serve, also with this wiki, are consumers of our distribution. Hence we do this in the main namespace. Some of the Users additionally assume the role of Contributors. Means they do not only consume what we do but also conserve (take care of) it. They are significantly smaller than the User group but equally important. Hence we give them their own space in the openSUSE: namespace. A very special form of Contributor we have to take care of with the wiki are people who use the wiki for their contribution. They are a small portion of the Contributor group, but for the wiki, and what we want to gain with it, the most important one. So we will provide them with processes, tools and documentation in the Help: namespace. There are borders where these categories of people mix and where its not so easy to distinguish between them. I'm talking for instance about User2User support which is for Users but at the same time its a contribution. Bugreporting which is clearly a contribution but also a service for Users or organization of the wiki contributors which could be a Contributor (openSUSE:) or a Wiki (Help:) topic. But for those we just need to decide and document this decision. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-wiki+help@opensuse.org

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Henne Vogelsang
Jon Rocker
Rajko M.
Rémy Marquis
Thomas Schmidt