[opensuse-usability] network card revisited
Hi, there is a new idea for editing addresses of a network card: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module (it is in the mockup gallery beneath: "Editing addresses of a network card") The basic idea was to hide the setup possibilities people are not using very often (like: AUTOIP and DHCP+AUTOIP) in a combo box, which cleans up the design and decreases possible confusion of non-technical users. To avoid confusion for non-expert users there is currently the suggestion that the user has to enable additional addresses via a check box. I am looking forward to your comments! Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On 4/19/07, Martin Schmidkunz
Hi,
there is a new idea for editing addresses of a network card: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module (it is in the mockup gallery beneath: "Editing addresses of a network card") The basic idea was to hide the setup possibilities people are not using very often (like: AUTOIP and DHCP+AUTOIP) in a combo box, which cleans up the design and decreases possible confusion of non-technical users. To avoid confusion for non-expert users there is currently the suggestion that the user has to enable additional addresses via a check box.
I am looking forward to your comments!
A lot of nice ideas; I'm happy it's being renamed to 'Network Settings', it's definitely clearer. A few issues: * I'm really unsure about the 'Edit' button for Devices. You don't really edit a network card, you Configure it. * I think the interface is a little confusing since you have a use of tabs in the windows, but then you also have Next/Previous which implies it should work like a Wizard. Probably not a huge priority, but I don't think it's ideal. * Not sure about the NetworkManager / ifup bifurcation with description is ideal. A standard desktop isn't a mobile device, really, but it's also not a server. Perhaps we could either just have (Recommended) next to NM (since sysadmins would probably/hopefully know about ifup!), or have the description to "Recommended for Desktops and Mobile Devices". As cb400f has just mentioned to me on IRC, I think listing NM settings in YaST is problematic. New users seem to think that they can configure NM in yast, and hence have to enter IE ESSID/WEP keys etc for wireless cards, which isn't really true at all :/ Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Web: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 13:37:46 Francis Giannaros wrote:
As cb400f has just mentioned to me on IRC, I think listing NM settings in YaST is problematic. New users seem to think that they can configure NM in yast, and hence have to enter IE ESSID/WEP keys etc for wireless cards, which isn't really true at all :/
Not for the laptop single user but, it's essential if you are using NM on anything else and you want the system to bring up NM networking before you log in. This is a clearly identified user requirement for current NM (and will shortly be implemented by reading the settings made in YaSt and providing these to the daemon using a policy daemon over the NMInfo dbus service). What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that? Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On 4/19/07, Will Stephenson
On Thursday 19 April 2007 13:37:46 Francis Giannaros wrote:
As cb400f has just mentioned to me on IRC, I think listing NM settings in YaST is problematic. New users seem to think that they can configure NM in yast, and hence have to enter IE ESSID/WEP keys etc for wireless cards, which isn't really true at all :/
Not for the laptop single user but, it's essential if you are using NM on anything else and you want the system to bring up NM networking before you log in. This is a clearly identified user requirement for current NM (and will shortly be implemented by reading the settings made in YaSt and providing these to the daemon using a policy daemon over the NMInfo dbus service).
Hm, that's true.
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Since that's pretty much the only use case for it, it would definitely be nicer to have something like that, yeah. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Web: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 +0200, Will Stephenson
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Sounds interesting at first :-) What NM settings would that be? Maybe we can meet next week and discuss that issue? Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 April 2007 11:54:19 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 +0200, Will Stephenson
wrote:
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Sounds interesting at first :-) What NM settings would that be?
Just the wireless settings that have to be read by NM.
Maybe we can meet next week and discuss that issue?
Sure, just pick a date/time and I'll be there Will -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Will Stephenson wrote / napísal(a):
On Friday 20 April 2007 11:54:19 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 +0200, Will Stephenson
wrote:
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Sounds interesting at first :-) What NM settings would that be?
Just the wireless settings that have to be read by NM.
But this is already done in YaST - write configuration for wireless devices. Am I missing something? Or did you mean some additional informations? Michal
Maybe we can meet next week and discuss that issue?
Sure, just pick a date/time and I'll be there
Will
-- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 24 April 2007, Michal Zugec said:
Will Stephenson wrote / napísal(a):
On Friday 20 April 2007 11:54:19 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 +0200, Will Stephenson
wrote:
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Sounds interesting at first :-) What NM settings would that be?
Just the wireless settings that have to be read by NM.
But this is already done in YaST - write configuration for wireless devices. Am I missing something? Or did you mean some additional informations?
I was responding to Francis' assertion that we don't want NM settings in YaST, "because it confuses users", so that my use case is recorded in the design. *) We already do this and need this for the use case I posted last night *) It could be made clearer that YaST sets the system defaults for NetworkManager but that each user can add his/her own networks *) It might be nice (but not very realistic) to be able to also pre-set users' NM settings via YaST - write ~/.kde/share/config/knetworkmanagerrc and the corresponding gconf keys. Additionally *) NM 0.7 will add support for multiple simultaneously active devices, static IP, and proper PPP device control - therefore much like the non-NM settings we have in Yast now. It will obtain the system's config from a dbus settings service running as root, before a user logs in and adds their own settings. The default implementation of this settings service will probably be a stripped-down nm-applet reading gconf. It would be wise to keep this in mind now when redesigning network config so that you don't have to start from scratch next version. Will -- Desktop Engineer Interfaces and Applications Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Will Stephenson wrote / napísal(a):
On Tuesday 24 April 2007, Michal Zugec said:
Will Stephenson wrote / napísal(a):
On Friday 20 April 2007 11:54:19 Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:51:05 +0200, Will Stephenson
wrote:
What would be nice would be if the admin could add NM settings in YaST and then be clearly be presented with a choice to store these as system settings, default for all users, or apply them to a subset of users - what do you think of that?
Sounds interesting at first :-) What NM settings would that be?
Just the wireless settings that have to be read by NM.
But this is already done in YaST - write configuration for wireless devices. Am I missing something? Or did you mean some additional informations?
I was responding to Francis' assertion that we don't want NM settings in YaST, "because it confuses users", so that my use case is recorded in the design.
*) We already do this and need this for the use case I posted last night *) It could be made clearer that YaST sets the system defaults for NetworkManager but that each user can add his/her own networks *) It might be nice (but not very realistic) to be able to also pre-set users' NM settings via YaST - write ~/.kde/share/config/knetworkmanagerrc and the corresponding gconf keys. Additionally *) NM 0.7 will add support for multiple simultaneously active devices, static IP, and proper PPP device control - therefore much like the non-NM settings we have in Yast now. It will obtain the system's config from a dbus settings service running as root, before a user logs in and adds their own settings. The default implementation of this settings service will probably be a stripped-down nm-applet reading gconf. It would be wise to keep this in mind now when redesigning network config so that you don't have to start from scratch next version.
Will
It seems very cool. Could you write fate-request for this? Thank you, Michal -- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 24 April 2007 06:50, Michal Zugec wrote:
Could you write fate-request for this? If you don't mind to translate for me the "fate-request".
-- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
BTW: The current Yast-Network module has a GUI that allows users to change MAC address, however this is buggy feature that doesn't really works. I hope that the new module will have this fixed. How-To Change Your MAC Address: http://forgeftp.novell.com/lfl/.html/howto-change-mac-address.html -- -Alexey Eremenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Alexey Eremenko wrote / napísal(a):
BTW: The current Yast-Network module has a GUI that allows users to change MAC address, however this is buggy feature that doesn't really works. I hope that the new module will have this fixed.
How-To Change Your MAC Address: http://forgeftp.novell.com/lfl/.html/howto-change-mac-address.html
Are you sure that you can change MAC address in YaST? You can change configuration name that contains MAC address, not MAC address Michal -- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote / napísal(a):
On Tuesday 24 April 2007 06:50, Michal Zugec wrote:
Could you write fate-request for this?
If you don't mind to translate for me the "fate-request".
This was comment for Will. It's our internal tool. Michal -- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Den Thursday 19 April 2007 13:37:46 skrev Francis Giannaros:
As cb400f has just mentioned to me on IRC, I think listing NM settings in YaST is problematic. New users seem to think that they can configure NM in yast, and hence have to enter IE ESSID/WEP keys etc for wireless cards, which isn't really true at all :/
Hm, Apo just made one of my points for me. Another thing, I believe should be adressed in a new and improved ui is the hostname and gateway stuff. I very often see people on IRC and in forums that have problems because they forget to enter DNS and/or gateway when they use static IP. There's of course two reasons for this: 1) Users being foolish 2) These settings being a little bit "hidden", making them easy to "forget". Solution - make it more dominant - or maybe show dns+gateway in the "summary" http://en.opensuse.org/Image:041007_networkcard_global_device.png -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Št 19. Apríl 2007, Martin Schlander wrote:
Den Thursday 19 April 2007 13:37:46 skrev Francis Giannaros:
As cb400f has just mentioned to me on IRC, I think listing NM settings in YaST is problematic. New users seem to think that they can configure NM in yast, and hence have to enter IE ESSID/WEP keys etc for wireless cards, which isn't really true at all :/
Hm, Apo just made one of my points for me.
Another thing, I believe should be adressed in a new and improved ui is the hostname and gateway stuff. I very often see people on IRC and in forums that have problems because they forget to enter DNS and/or gateway when they use static IP.
There's of course two reasons for this:
1) Users being foolish
2) These settings being a little bit "hidden", making them easy to "forget".
Solution - make it more dominant - or maybe show dns+gateway in the "summary" http://en.opensuse.org/Image:041007_networkcard_global_device.png
In fact there are another two tabs: Hostname/DNS and route not shown on screenshot. Martin, we should update that screenshots to show "real" status. If needed I'll help you with that M. -- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
In fact there are another two tabs: Hostname/DNS and route not shown on screenshot. Martin, we should update that screenshots to show "real" status.
You are right. I just want to take another look on these modules before adding them to the mockup. If I won't make it today, it would be nice, if you could help me. I just let you know. Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Solution - make it more dominant - or maybe show dns+gateway in the "summary" http://en.opensuse.org/Image:041007_networkcard_global_device.png
You are right about that. We intend to do that, it was just not included in the screenshots. Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 11:59, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi,
there is a new idea for editing addresses of a network card: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module (it is in the mockup gallery beneath: "Editing addresses of a network card") The basic idea was to hide the setup possibilities people are not using very often (like: AUTOIP and DHCP+AUTOIP) in a combo box, which cleans up the design and decreases possible confusion of non-technical users. To avoid confusion for non-expert users there is currently the suggestion that the user has to enable additional addresses via a check box.
I am looking forward to your comments!
thanks for the opportunity to give comments, here they are: When i use the module i use it for 95% to change DHCP to static address. To bad i have to click in your mockups on a tab to do it. The global_generalsettings comes as the first screen? To much information, this should be imho hidden in a "advanced" tab, or when i see it correctly make it the 2nd tab on the networkcard_global_device screen and start with "devices" tab. Use good defaults and the user will never bother to use this screen. networkcard_global_device: I agree with the wrong naming of the buttons, it should be "configure" instead of "Edit" and "disable" instead of "Delete" networkcard hardware for the "Driver" option there should be a possibility to choose from a list, but also to enter the module manually. For the "Interface Name" there should be a drop down menu with most used names. Networkcard address I wish a drop down menu for "IP Address" and "Subnetmask" with the last 5-10 entered items. This is very handy when you switch networks a lot and don't use dhcp. Even better, make a new drop down button where you can easy switch between work, home, friend, cafe, whatever and it will change all your settings. This might be better hidden in an advanced tab, where you can save, edit, delete the settings. Yes, you can do it also with other tools, but this is, or networkmanager, imho the place where it should be. -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Št 19. Apríl 2007, Martin Lasarsch wrote:
On Thursday 19 April 2007 11:59, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi,
there is a new idea for editing addresses of a network card: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module (it is in the mockup gallery beneath: "Editing addresses of a network card") The basic idea was to hide the setup possibilities people are not using very often (like: AUTOIP and DHCP+AUTOIP) in a combo box, which cleans up the design and decreases possible confusion of non-technical users. To avoid confusion for non-expert users there is currently the suggestion that the user has to enable additional addresses via a check box.
I am looking forward to your comments!
thanks for the opportunity to give comments, here they are:
When i use the module i use it for 95% to change DHCP to static address. To bad i have to click in your mockups on a tab to do it.
The global_generalsettings comes as the first screen? To much information, this should be imho hidden in a "advanced" tab, or when i see it correctly make it the 2nd tab on the networkcard_global_device screen and start with "devices" tab. Use good defaults and the user will never bother to use this screen.
Hi Martin, "Network Devices" is default tab (it's not shown there, but it is)
networkcard_global_device: I agree with the wrong naming of the buttons, it should be "configure" instead of "Edit" and "disable" instead of "Delete"
I agree with "Configure", but not with "Disable". Disable means that YaST will keep your configuration but button will delete it.
networkcard hardware for the "Driver" option there should be a possibility to choose from a list, but also to enter the module manually.
Yes, that's current status. Also there is checkbox to write or not hardware configuration (you don't need when your device is recognized by kernel)
For the "Interface Name" there should be a drop down menu with most used names.
It is exactly now
Networkcard address I wish a drop down menu for "IP Address" and "Subnetmask" with the last 5-10 entered items. This is very handy when you switch networks a lot and don't use dhcp. Even better, make a new drop down button where you can easy switch between work, home, friend, cafe, whatever and it will change all your settings. This might be better hidden in an advanced tab, where you can save, edit, delete the settings. Yes, you can do it also with other tools, but this is, or networkmanager, imho the place where it should be.
Nice idea. We have scpm in distribution for that, but integration in YaST would be nice. Could you write fate-request for this? Bye, Michal
-- with kind regards,
Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org
-- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
"Network Devices" is default tab (it's not shown there, but it is)
Correct.
networkcard_global_device: I agree with the wrong naming of the buttons, it should be "configure" instead of "Edit" and "disable" instead of "Delete" I agree with "Configure", but not with "Disable". Disable means that YaST will keep your configuration but button will delete it.
Stop! We can generally discuss pros and cons of another button labeling but for now relabeling the buttons would break constistency of YaST and YaST is already inconsitency enough! So there will be no relabelling yet.
networkcard hardware for the "Driver" option there should be a possibility to choose from a list, but also to enter the module manually.
Makes sense.
Networkcard address I wish a drop down menu for "IP Address" and "Subnetmask" with the last 5-10 entered items. This is very handy when you switch networks a lot and don't use dhcp.
That use case would be covered with the profiles you mentioned beneath.
Even better, make a new drop down button where you can easy switch between work, home, friend, cafe, whatever and it will change all your settings. This might be better hidden in an advanced tab, where you can save, edit, delete the settings. Yes, you can do it also with other tools, but this is, or networkmanager, imho the place where it should be. Nice idea. We have scpm in distribution for that, but integration in YaST would be nice. Could you write fate-request for this?
Will already came up with the idea to integrate some nm stuff into the network card module. I think we can make this kind of profile thing in that place. Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 19 April 2007 17:29:23 Michal Zugec wrote:
On Št 19. Apríl 2007, Martin Lasarsch wrote:
On Thursday 19 April 2007 11:59, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Hi,
there is a new idea for editing addresses of a network card: http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module (it is in the mockup gallery beneath: "Editing addresses of a network card") The basic idea was to hide the setup possibilities people are not using very often (like: AUTOIP and DHCP+AUTOIP) in a combo box, which cleans up the design and decreases possible confusion of non-technical users. To avoid confusion for non-expert users there is currently the suggestion that the user has to enable additional addresses via a check box.
I am looking forward to your comments!
thanks for the opportunity to give comments, here they are:
When i use the module i use it for 95% to change DHCP to static address. To bad i have to click in your mockups on a tab to do it.
The global_generalsettings comes as the first screen? To much information, this should be imho hidden in a "advanced" tab, or when i see it correctly make it the 2nd tab on the networkcard_global_device screen and start with "devices" tab. Use good defaults and the user will never bother to use this screen.
Hi Martin, "Network Devices" is default tab (it's not shown there, but it is)
networkcard_global_device: I agree with the wrong naming of the buttons, it should be "configure" instead of "Edit" and "disable" instead of "Delete"
I agree with "Configure", but not with "Disable". Disable means that YaST will keep your configuration but button will delete it.
networkcard hardware for the "Driver" option there should be a possibility to choose from a list, but also to enter the module manually.
Yes, that's current status. Also there is checkbox to write or not hardware configuration (you don't need when your device is recognized by kernel)
For the "Interface Name" there should be a drop down menu with most used names.
It is exactly now
Networkcard address I wish a drop down menu for "IP Address" and "Subnetmask" with the last 5-10 entered items. This is very handy when you switch networks a lot and don't use dhcp. Even better, make a new drop down button where you can easy switch between work, home, friend, cafe, whatever and it will change all your settings. This might be better hidden in an advanced tab, where you can save, edit, delete the settings. Yes, you can do it also with other tools, but this is, or networkmanager, imho the place where it should be.
Nice idea. We have scpm in distribution for that, but integration in YaST would be nice. Could you write fate-request for this?
Bye, Michal
-- with kind regards,
Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org
-- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/
-- Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services Phone: +49 911 74053 181 Mobile: +49 179 206 74 74 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 20 April 2007 14:26:33 Martin Lasarsch wrote: grrr, to fast ... :-)
Nice idea. We have scpm in distribution for that, but integration in YaST would be nice. Could you write fate-request for this?
done -- with kind regards, Martin Lasarsch, Core Services SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nürnberg GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) martin.lasarsch@suse.de - http://www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Hello, On Apr 19 16:10 Martin Lasarsch wrote (shortened):
On Thursday 19 April 2007 11:59, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Network_Card_Module ... networkcard_global_device: I agree with the wrong naming of the buttons, it should be "configure" instead of "Edit" and "disable" instead of "Delete"
It seems the meaning behind the names is not clear. Actually it means: [Add] to add a new configuration [Edit] to change an existing configuration [Delete] to remove an existing configuration I assume Martin has the actual hardware (network card) in mind and of course it is nonsense to "Add", "Edit", "Delete" the hardware via a config tool. But what is meant is not the hardware but the configuration (i.e. the software settings) and then "Add", "Edit" and "Delete" make sense. I assume most users do not understand the meaning behind the names and therefore they get confused. The background problem here seems that the network card dialog is perhaps too simple to be a good template for the general case because for each network card there is (usually) one configuration (can YaST set up more than one interface for a network card?) so that here each piece of hardware has a one-to-one match with one configuration. In contrast e.g. for printer setup there are often several configurations (i.e. several print queues) for the same piece of hardware so that a simple "Configure" is misleading when you try to add a queue for a printer for which there is already a queue - therefore "Add" is used. But even for a network card a simple "Configure" may be not sufficient because which button name should be used to set up a second interface for the same network card? What exactly should "Disable" mean for a network card? Keep the hardware driver loaded but shut down the network interface or what? Compare with what "Disable" means for a print queue: It means to disable printing (i.e. keep the queue and still accept new jobs but only do not print them out). I think the basic problem is how to make it obvious to the user that a software setup tool cannot do anything with his hardware but only change something in the operating system software. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Actually it means: [Add] to add a new configuration [Edit] to change an existing configuration [Delete] to remove an existing configuration
Right.
I assume Martin has the actual hardware (network card) in mind and of course it is nonsense to "Add", "Edit", "Delete" the hardware via a config tool. But what is meant is not the hardware but the configuration (i.e. the software settings) and then "Add", "Edit" and "Delete" make sense.
Right again :-)
I assume most users do not understand the meaning behind the names and therefore they get confused.
That would be an interesting thing to think about. Especially when thinking about YaST UI facelift and all the other topics on this mailing list. What about using: [Add] [Change] [Remove]
In contrast e.g. for printer setup there are often several configurations (i.e. several print queues) for the same piece of hardware so that a simple "Configure" is misleading when you try to add a queue for a printer for which there is already a queue - therefore "Add" is used.
Yapp. I am very curious myselft how we will change it :-)
But even for a network card a simple "Configure" may be not sufficient because which button name should be used to set up a second interface for the same network card?
Mzugec: Is this a valid use case?
What exactly should "Disable" mean for a network card? Keep the hardware driver loaded but shut down the network interface or what?
As far as I remember the plan is to show disabled network cards in the list until the network card (hardware piece) is removed.
I think the basic problem is how to make it obvious to the user that a software setup tool cannot do anything with his hardware but only change something in the operating system software.
But is this really a problem? Our data shows that people actually using our products and the YaST configuration have at least some experience with computers. Most openSUSE users (70%) are experienced users with technical skills (e.g. setting up a server or performing updates) or they are so experienced that they are actually making money with their IT skills. The SLED users have very limited access to their configuration (if they have any at all) and well I think the SLES guys need not to be mentioned :-) Research shows that the ultimate newbie user doesn't do any configuration at all. When he gets a new piece of hardware he just calls someone with experience. Enjoy, Martin -- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ------------------------------------- Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Hello. On Apr 20 11:48 Martin Schmidkunz wrote (shortened):
Actually it means: [Add] to add a new configuration [Edit] to change an existing configuration [Delete] to remove an existing configuration ... What about using: [Add] [Change] [Remove]
I fear that regardless which single words we use, it doesn't make obvious that the configuration is meant and not the hardware. I even think that "Edit" is more clear because one cannot "Edit" hardware but one could "Change" hardware. Perhaps I found the actual reason: On http://en.opensuse.org/Image:041007_networkcard_global_device.png the tab is named "Devices" which means the actual hardware but the buttons are named [Edit] and [Delete] which is nonsense for "Devices". Perhaps if the tab was named "Device settings" ist would be clearer. But then we may have to add "settings" everywhere which looks bloated.
What exactly should "Disable" mean for a network card? Keep the hardware driver loaded but shut down the network interface or what?
As far as I remember the plan is to show disabled network cards in the list until the network card (hardware piece) is removed.
You mean your above [Remove] button removes the hardware piece? ;-) I still do not understand what exactly a "disabled" network card means (but I understand what a deleted/removed network card configuration means).
Most openSUSE users (70%) are experienced users with technical skills
When 30% of the useres are unexperienced it means Hundreds of Thousands unexperienced users. In general: When you do each piece so that it fits only for most users, you get a terrible small intersection of all the pieces which still fit for all users. E.g.: 10 pieces which are o.k for 90% of the users result that all pieces are o.k. only for 0.9^10 = 34.87% of the users and 10 pieces which are o.k for only 70% of the users result that all pieces are o.k. for less than 3% of the users. The underlying fact is that the intersection of all sets is the empty set. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
On Pi 20. Apríl 2007, Martin Schmidkunz wrote:
Actually it means: [Add] to add a new configuration [Edit] to change an existing configuration [Delete] to remove an existing configuration
Right.
I assume Martin has the actual hardware (network card) in mind and of course it is nonsense to "Add", "Edit", "Delete" the hardware via a config tool. But what is meant is not the hardware but the configuration (i.e. the software settings) and then "Add", "Edit" and "Delete" make sense.
Right again :-)
I assume most users do not understand the meaning behind the names and therefore they get confused.
That would be an interesting thing to think about. Especially when thinking about YaST UI facelift and all the other topics on this mailing list. What about using: [Add] [Change] [Remove]
In contrast e.g. for printer setup there are often several configurations (i.e. several print queues) for the same piece of hardware so that a simple "Configure" is misleading when you try to add a queue for a printer for which there is already a queue - therefore "Add" is used.
Yapp. I am very curious myselft how we will change it :-)
But even for a network card a simple "Configure" may be not sufficient because which button name should be used to set up a second interface for the same network card?
Mzugec: Is this a valid use case?
for network relation is 1:1, for printer it's 1:N
What exactly should "Disable" mean for a network card? Keep the hardware driver loaded but shut down the network interface or what?
As far as I remember the plan is to show disabled network cards in the list until the network card (hardware piece) is removed.
I think the basic problem is how to make it obvious to the user that a software setup tool cannot do anything with his hardware but only change something in the operating system software.
But is this really a problem? Our data shows that people actually using our products and the YaST configuration have at least some experience with computers. Most openSUSE users (70%) are experienced users with technical skills (e.g. setting up a server or performing updates) or they are so experienced that they are actually making money with their IT skills. The SLED users have very limited access to their configuration (if they have any at all) and well I think the SLES guys need not to be mentioned
:-)
Research shows that the ultimate newbie user doesn't do any configuration at all. When he gets a new piece of hardware he just calls someone with experience.
Enjoy,
Martin
-- Martin Schmidkunz User Experience Specialist martin.schmidkunz@novell.com +49 (0) 911 740 53-346 ------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -------------------------------------
Novell, Inc. SUSE® Linux Enterprise 10 Your Linux is ready http://www.novell.com/linux
-- Best Regards, Michal Zugec Software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SuSE CR, s.r.o. e-mail: mzugec@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 960 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
Hello, perhaps a bit off-topic but I just like to point out how complicated it can become. We should have the most complicated case in mind when we really want to get a design which can be used for all hardware config modules and not only a simple design which only works for simple hardware config and all complicated hardware config ends up in a mess of arbitrary addons (like arbitrary popups) and arbitrary workarounds because of a too simple basic design. On Apr 20 13:18 Michal Zugec wrote (shortened):
for network relation is 1:1, for printer it's 1:N
Actually for printer it's even more complicated because one printer can have N queues and additionally M queues can build up one class. For example: printer1 has queues bw1, color1 and photo printer2 has queues bw2 and color2 printer3 has queue bw3 queues bw1, bw2 and bw3 build up class bw queues color1 and color2 build up class color A class is some kind of meta configuration, i.e. a configuration which is not based upon hardware but based upon other configurations. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstrasse 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany AG Nuernberg, HRB 16746, GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-usability+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-usability+help@opensuse.org
participants (9)
-
Alexey Eremenko -
Francis Giannaros -
Johannes Meixner -
Martin Lasarsch -
Martin Schlander -
Martin Schmidkunz -
Michal Zugec -
Rajko M. -
Will Stephenson