Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2006 17:47 schrieb houghi:

On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 02:25:59PM +0100, David Wright wrote:

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1) Why doen't we have a language marker for the default? That would make things more consistent, and if somebody sees a list full of DE, CN, FR mailing lists and starts searching for EN they are going to be out of luck - although most people probably aren't that dumb. Also stops any question of English elitism, unless you are proposing the default groups are in German, or Flemish (hi houghi ;-P).

Yes, make a EN as well. Oh and Flemish is not a language, it is a group of dialects. If we get Flemish, we should get also Plat-Duutsch, Beirisch and Östereichish. (The last two are the same, but don't tell them that, because the inhabitants think they are not, because they are better then the other. :)

I'm English, living in Bayern and have visited Östereich and they are definitely not the same :-D Mind you I get lost when the locals talk to me here, I can speak German, but Bayerisch gets me totally lost most of the time :-P <snip> Dave

Am Fri, 10. February 2006 18:47 schrieb David Wright:

Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2006 17:47 schrieb houghi:

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On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 02:25:59PM +0100, David Wright wrote:

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1) Why doen't we have a language marker for the default? That would make things more consistent, and if somebody sees a list full of DE, CN, FR mailing lists and starts searching for EN they are going to be out of luck - although most people probably aren't that dumb. Also stops any question of English elitism, unless you are proposing the default groups are in German, or Flemish (hi houghi ;-P).

Yes, make a EN as well. Oh and Flemish is not a language, it is a group of dialects. If we get Flemish, we should get also Plat-Duutsch, Beirisch and Östereichish. (The last two are the same, but don't tell them that, because the inhabitants think they are not, because they are better then the other. :)

I'm English, living in Bayern and have visited Östereich and they are definitely not the same :-D Mind you I get lost when the locals talk to me here, I can speak German, but Bayerisch gets me totally lost most of the time :-P

I will not comment or even rate the right to exist for (sub)laguage lists. This is a minefield which may become as big as religion or politics. So therefore I also tried to give this posting a more humorous note ;-)) So, from a technical point of view. - setting up a mailing list is done in seconds - administrating a low-low traffic list (even for a language which might be spoken only by 2 people on the world) will be no work (under the aspect of human recources) - Even the little bit of more reccources needed due to more postings of the same toppic / field in different languages will not be an argument against (sub)language lists From a practical point of view - if there is a new list, lets say in Klingon, which is frequently used by only a very few people (Klingons may be) and has therefore only very few postings will most likely not attract more users to participate. So there is a big chance that such a list will dissapear over a longer period of time. This because of the natural mortality rate (mortality under the aspect of people seem to be dead if not posting) is lower than the fertility rate (under the aspect of fertility rate seen as new posters are like a new born member of the opensuse community). - But not setting up a (sub)language list which is asked for (may be from a certain number uf users, to have some kind of barrier not having the need for setting up a list for every person of the world) may be a lost opportunity. Because if _just_this_ new list will attract a lot of people it is definetly a win for opensuse. and it would be sad if we hadn't done this. Or, comming back to my example above, we would have missed to win the klingon empire to join the opensuse universe and participate spreading our Prime Directive (which is Free Software and opensuse for the collective good). Not talking of the benefit to win some klingons as brothers in arms. - Even if it has no practical use for the opensuse project itself it has a social use in the meaning of beeing an encouragement offered by opensuse to give people of a certain language the chance to socialise and thereby it helps keeping their culture which mostoften is based in their language alive. So speaking of klingon again we might be able to give a helping hand to keep the klingon empire and it's culture alive. regards, Thomas

houghi wrote:

Perhaps we could decide that after a period of non-posting, the list might be deleted. Say 3 months of non-posting and the list is removed. 3 months of non-posting could mean that the group is actualy braindead.

you can simply leave it... I have such a nearly stopped suse list. It was from the start intended to be very low traffic and it is. however sometimes there is a question... and curiously also an answer :-) I just verify I have yet 27 subscribers, and 4 messages a year, I guess :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2006 18:19 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:

Hi,

On Friday, February 10, 2006 at 14:25:59, David Wright wrote:

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Am Freitag, 10. Februar 2006 13:43 schrieb Henne Vogelsang:

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opensuse-announce@opensuse.org - Announce in german

^^ I think that should be opensuse-announce-de@opensuse.org?

Of course.

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Mailinglists will get setup on request. Im not going to setup mailinglists with one or less subscribers. I need to think of an request mechanism but it will probably be a mail address.

Also makes sense, but be sure to have the information on the wiki that additional language lists can be set up.

Yes. This should go to the corresponding Communicate page of the language wiki.

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Comments?

Seems fine, only things I thought about were:

1) Why doen't we have a language marker for the default? That would make things more consistent, and if somebody sees a list full of DE, CN, FR mailing lists and starts searching for EN they are going to be out of luck - although most people probably aren't that dumb. Also stops any question of English elitism, unless you are proposing the default groups are in German, or Flemish (hi houghi ;-P).

That would make things easier for a small percentage of people and harder for most.

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2) This would also allow for <language>-<project>-<topic>@domain.tld, this way all the groups for a language could be grouped together when listed.

No need to. LanguageX mailinglists should not show up in the languageY Communicate page. So they will be gouped by language anyway without representing that in the name.

I had wondered about that, but wouldn't listing the alternatives at least on the default/English pages be useful?

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would, IMHO make a little more sense, somebody who is subscribing to French groups can quickly see by the prefix what language they are, not have to search for every project/topic and then find the French version thereof... This would also keep it semi-consistent with usenet naming, where language/country specific groups are listed with that languages/country's prefix (E.g. es.comp.misc, es.comp.programas etc.).

And go totally contrary to how mailinglists are usually set up. Im against it.

Henne

Fine, apart from the SUSE lists I've never really done mailing lists, I've always stuck with newsgroups, forums or internal company SIG folders in Exchange, Notes etc. If using the language code as a suffix is already the accepted standard for mailing lists, then so it be. It was just from an ease of reading when multiple languages for groups were listed on the same page... Dave

jdd wrote:

a wiki page in the <language> wiki asking for that (linked in the "communicate page) - I will keep care of that for fr

done http://fr.opensuse.org/Pour_une_liste_de_discussion_en_français as you may see, I add some words of definition of what is a maling list and what will be the scope of our mailing list. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos

On Sat, Feb 11, 2006 at 08:59:20AM +1100, Peter Flodin wrote:

On 2/10/06, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

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Comments? No problems with the proposed naming.

Here are my thoughts about the list of default mailing lists.

Should we line up the mailing lists with the teams, to help collaboration and contact? ie each team page could list a mailing list.

With that many lists people might want to follow (or at least that I want to follow) I sure hope that the gmane thing is working soon. :-) If somebody has a page on how I can now include this on my leafnode machine, I am very happy to hear it. houghi -- How wonderful opera would be if there were no singers.

At 10:04 PM 17/02/2006, you wrote:

scsijon wrote:

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and people time to translate between, or is it the intention to only cover topics within their own language group?

my personal yhinking is that major project pages should be translated/adapted on any new wiki. Then the life goes... and probably the wikis diverge.

It could be interesting to have a tool to list the wiki pages with an interwiki link (presumed translated) and the pages witj no interwiki links (link lacks or translation needed in either way). Translation stay on a user wish.

may be this tools exists :-)

babelfish could be your friend here regards scsijon

At 10:44 PM 17/02/2006, you wrote:

Am Freitag, 17. Februar 2006 12:27 schrieb scsijon:

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At 10:04 PM 17/02/2006, you wrote:

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scsijon wrote:

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and people time to translate between, or is it the intention to only cover topics within their own language group?

my personal yhinking is that major project pages should be translated/adapted on any new wiki. Then the life goes... and probably the wikis diverge.

It could be interesting to have a tool to list the wiki pages with an interwiki link (presumed translated) and the pages witj no interwiki links (link lacks or translation needed in either way). Translation stay on a user wish.

may be this tools exists :-)

babelfish could be your friend here

Have you tried it? It usually translates about as well as a drunken 2 year old! :-P

yes i know, but it's at least understandable as my friends in Quebec, Greenland, Egypt and Thailand tell me. Only problem is Suise, where it appears as gobblegook, thankfully he can understand a reasonable level of technical english. regards scsijon

Hi, On Friday, February 17, 2006 at 18:14:08, scsijon wrote:

1- there are 23 major written language groups currently used on the planet, there are additionally some 158 dialect variations.

even if you only support the major language groups you will need some physical space and people time to translate between, or is it the intention to only cover topics within their own language group?

What? We are talking about mailinglists here. Not about some websites...

2- have you thought about the matrix neccesary as you expand?

What exactly do you mean by "matrix"?

3- can it be from the start that everything is in text (no html or closed format attachments) for security, etc. (I for one have autodelete on for all attachments)

As the mailinglists allow only plain text you wont have anything else in the archives...

4- how will the mailing format to people go, message by message to all subscribed

Yes. Thats how mailinglists work. For some lists there might be a digest mode but that usually sucks big time. See the FAQ of our other lists. Q3. How to I get the list in digest form instead of separate emails? A3. We don't offer digested lists for several reasons: 1) Most of our lists (especially this one) are far to large to make digests useful. 2) In our experience, digests tend to decrease the quality of list postings. 3) Usually, when people request digests what they are really asking for is a way to keep the list mail from flooding their mailbox and making it harder to find and read non-list mail. This is a valid concern and one that is best handled with mail filtering, not digests.

5- finally, do we need such a large breakup as project, or would this be better set as the first word of the topic (or am i taking the word the wrong meaning)

That would mean that seperation of topics is up to users. That does not work.

ps has anyone tried listing the existing forums out there and their purposes? maybe what is needed is a rehash / combine/resplit instead.

We are talking about mailinglists. Not forums... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, Core Services "Rules change. The Game remains the same." - Omar (The Wire)