...

Will, List, You are not going to believe this. What's with the kde developers? You try and help and get the "kiss off" response. That's one of the big things that is wrong with KDE4. This was files as a "Wish" and "Closed INVAL" -- Huh?? Go figure... https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211288

Why not go complain to KDE directly, or to opensuse's KDE specific list. mailto:opensuse-kde+subscribe@opensuse.org http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel

Actually, it looks like material for the Usability list: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 13:45 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote:

On Monday 26 October 2009 18:41:07 David C. Rankin wrote:

...

Will, List,

You are not going to believe this. What's with the kde developers? You try and help and get the "kiss off" response. That's one of the big things that is wrong with KDE4. This was files as a "Wish" and "Closed INVAL" -- Huh?? Go figure...

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211288

And the denouement is that it was closed INVALID by mistake, but on further inspection the kwin developers pointed out that win+key shortcuts are not good upstream defaults as not every keyboard has a win key.

So I guess these shortcuts as alternative shortcuts are something we could consider as an openSUSE customization - a predominantly x86 desktop linux distro can pretty safely assume that 99% of its keyboards have win keys.

Too bad so many of my systems are in the 1% category. It is not only age of keyboard, but style that also effects this. We very often use smaller keyboards in our measurement systems. One way they keep the keyboards small is by not having 'optional' keys. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 16:12 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote:

...

Too bad so many of my systems are in the 1% category. It is not only age of keyboard, but style that also effects this. We very often use smaller keyboards in our measurement systems. One way they keep the keyboards small is by not having 'optional' keys.

Although I am in favour of the shortcuts proposed in the bug, I hope that you participate in the thread, Roger. I see KDE 4 ignoring "1%ers" in a lot of decisions. In fact, I would say that half of KDE users fall into one 1%er category or another, so these issues do pile up.

Out of interest, do the systems without a Tux key run composting window effects?

Very possibly. They tend to have decent NVIDIA cards. To be honest, we are more interested in the non-eye-candy effects of composting, such as better font handling and texture effects (some of the real reasons for the composting). Not so much cubes or snow. I am not sure how that has progressed. But I think it is one reason for the whole thing - better use of the graphics card so as to move many things usually done in software to be done in the graphics hardware instead. So, the hot key issue is a small thing to us. I mainly wanted to point out that the presence/absence of something is not always because of the age of the components. There are many power desktop users that have specific, if not obvious, requirements. -- Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden Office: Int +46 8-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

* Roger Oberholtzer [10-27-09 10:09]:

Too bad so many of my systems are in the 1% category. It is not only age of keyboard, but style that also effects this. We very often use smaller keyboards in our measurement systems. One way they keep the keyboards small is by not having 'optional' keys.

And my six pound 1992 AnyKey :^( -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

On 2009/10/27 17:04 (GMT+0100) Per Jessen composed:

Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Roger Oberholtzer [10-27-09 10:09]:

...

...

Too bad so many of my systems are in the 1% category. It is not only age of keyboard, but style that also effects this. We very often use smaller keyboards in our measurement systems. One way they keep the keyboards small is by not having 'optional' keys.

...

And my six pound 1992 AnyKey :^(

Yeah, I've got one of those too!

Prolly looks similar to this: http://www.cvtinc.com/products/keyboards/stellar.htm For those too young to know what Patrick and Per are talking about, once upon a time, starting back more than 20 years ago, there was a computer company that made keyboards designed to last, named Northgate. They went out of business long ago, but their keyboard line was salvaged by another company, Avant Stellar, that AFAIK still sells their progeny, at super-premium prices. Besides sturdiness they offered/offer various options, all of which pre-dated USB and keys "designed for Windows" by several years. Probably most of these keyboards still work, and those using them are reluctant to give up their superior performance or other options. Mine is a more basic model, the 102. It offered function keys where they belong, on the left (only), where they can be used in conjuction with and single-handed by touch the various shift keys. -- " A patriot without religion . . . is as great a paradox, as an honest man without the fear of God. . . . 2nd U.S. President, John Adams Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

John Andersen wrote:

On Oct 27, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Felix Miata w

So any solution that requires a windows key is a nonstarter for me.

---- I have found having a META key so important, I remap one of my ALT keys to the META key (or WIN, OR whatever)... It's a HUGE help for those of us with RSI probs. Reaching all the way up to the function keys is a real pain -- totally takes me off the home row. I think David's suggestion would be perfectly valid for and an 'alternate' keyboard mapping, that could be detected by the windowing system on presence of extended keys. Developer arrogance is simply a manifestation of their power in controlling the project and being the only ones knowing how to maintain the current code. Many of these projects have a very steep learning curve to make even the slightest change -- presuming a user knows how to code any C or C++ in the first place. -l -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org

At 03:03 PM 10/27/2009 +0100, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Tue, 2009-10-27 at 13:45 +0100, Will Stephenson wrote: /snip/

...

So I guess these shortcuts as alternative shortcuts are something we could consider as an openSUSE customization - a predominantly x86 desktop linux distro can pretty safely assume that 99% of its keyboards have win keys.

Too bad so many of my systems are in the 1% category. It is not only age of keyboard, but style that also effects this. We very often use smaller keyboards in our measurement systems. One way they keep the keyboards small is by not having 'optional' keys.

-- Roger Oberholtzer

Well, I'm in the 1% that don't have Win keyboards. I have two computers, one devoted to Windows, and one devoted to Linux, and both have IBM keyboards, the best ever made, in my opinion, probably 20 years old, and will be working long after I'm dead, if some idiot doesn't throw them out. Model number 1391401. This one was made in 1988. Bought at a flea market some years ago, and surely used at a busy office for years before I got it. Same with the other one, built in '93. (Remember, IBM invented the electric typewriter back in the late 40s or very early 50s, and they KNOW how to build keyboards!) I really hope that "Win" keys do not become essential to Linux operation. --doug, wa2say -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org