On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote: <snip>
please: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting
You're quick. That's been part of the official wiki page less than 24 hours! I wonder if it was discussed, or just added to the rules with little thought.
I'd argue that cross_posting is fine if everyone follows a reply-all philosophy and all of the lists allow posts by non-subscribers. It does simplify things if your email client deduplicates the emails. (I use gmail for mailing lists and it does that behind the scenes. I never know that I got 2 copies of the same email.)
That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.
With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.
Fyi: numerous of the more technical opensuse lists have been open to all posters for years, they rely on spam filters to keep the spam out. A few spams get in every now and then, but I bet it is only 10 or 20 per year.
fyi2: You should note I did not post this to multiple lists, but it is a perfect example of a post that would fit on more than one list. In particular, this one and -project. I don't really even know which one is the better choice. I chose this one only because this is where the reference link was made.
Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.
Greg
* Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 15:03]:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
<snip> > please: > http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting
You're quick. That's been part of the official wiki page less than 24 hours! I wonder if it was discussed, or just added to the rules with little thought.
At one time(!tm) it was part of the "netiquette". Rajko put it back into the wiki page.
I'd argue that cross_posting is fine if everyone follows a reply-all philosophy and all of the lists allow posts by non-subscribers. It does simplify things if your email client deduplicates the emails. (I use gmail for mailing lists and it does that behind the scenes. I never know that I got 2 copies of the same email.)
Everyone does *not* use graphical readers for text functions such as email. And, gmail also does not show your own posts in the list, ie: not a cure for all.
That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.
Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.
With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.
openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.
Fyi: numerous of the more technical opensuse lists have been open to all posters for years, they rely on spam filters to keep the spam out. A few spams get in every now and then, but I bet it is only 10 or 20 per year.
That has been proposed here and is utilized on a few lists, but not all. Spam is not a subject of this thread.
fyi2: You should note I did not post this to multiple lists, but it is a perfect example of a post that would fit on more than one list. In particular, this one and -project. I don't really even know which one is the better choice. I chose this one only because this is where the reference link was made.
In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?
cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.
The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!
Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.
And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
- Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 15:03]:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 1:48 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
<snip> > please: > http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette#Cross_posting
You're quick. That's been part of the official wiki page less than 24 hours! I wonder if it was discussed, or just added to the rules with little thought.
At one time(!tm) it was part of the "netiquette". Rajko put it back into the wiki page.
okay
I'd argue that cross_posting is fine if everyone follows a reply-all philosophy and all of the lists allow posts by non-subscribers. It does simplify things if your email client deduplicates the emails. (I use gmail for mailing lists and it does that behind the scenes. I never know that I got 2 copies of the same email.)
Everyone does *not* use graphical readers for text functions such as email. And, gmail also does not show your own posts in the list, ie: not a cure for all.
That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.
Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.
Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)
With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.
openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.
I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead.
I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.
Fyi: numerous of the more technical opensuse lists have been open to all posters for years, they rely on spam filters to keep the spam out. A few spams get in every now and then, but I bet it is only 10 or 20 per year.
That has been proposed here and is utilized on a few lists, but not all. Spam is not a subject of this thread.
Happy to hear it.
That is normally the biggest complaint about adopting a "open" communication style instead of the current "closed" style.
fyi2: You should note I did not post this to multiple lists, but it is a perfect example of a post that would fit on more than one list. In particular, this one and -project. I don't really even know which one is the better choice. I chose this one only because this is where the reference link was made.
In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?
Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too.
Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided.
eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.
cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.
I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.
The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!
I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.
Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.
And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.
I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email.
fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it.
Greg
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 2012-12-05 23:14, Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.
If a post starts in one mail list, then it is crosposted on two mail lists, and then it continues on only the second, people can miss replies if they are subscribed to only one of the lists.
That's what I'm more strongly opposed, to posts deambulating through the lists.
Plus, the LKLM method requires support from the staff and software, I'm afraid.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Carlos E. R. robin.listas@telefonica.net wrote:
Plus, the LKLM method requires support from the staff and software, I'm afraid.
That's lost on me.
If you are talking about on the server end, several opensuse lists already are open for non-subscriber posting and have been for 2+ years. The anti-spam filters are already in place, etc. Changing all opensuse lists is a relatively easy technical task.
The issue really is netiquette and is not technical. At least it is not technical on the server end.
There are technical issues on the client end.
For the casual subscriber that rarely posts, there is not much difference. For the active participant, there are all kinds email client recipes available to support the LKML approach. I believe one of the favored recipes is to segregate out threads in which someone has posted from the rest of the background threads.
That way if a dev wanted to stick their toe into this list on occasion, they could then have the threads they end up on the cc list put into its own folder, whereas most of the emails for this list would go into its own folder.
Thus, I would hope it would make it more likely that devs would subscribe to this list and now in then engage in one of the threads. As it is now, all threads are equal, so I suspect the devs stay away due to the high volume of traffic here and their inability to segregate out threads of interest.
Greg
On Wed, 2012-12-05 at 23:31 -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:
If you are talking about on the server end, several opensuse lists already are open for non-subscriber posting and have been for 2+ years. The anti-spam filters are already in place, etc. Changing all opensuse lists is a relatively easy technical task.
Yes I agree, changing them all to CLOSED to non members. anti spam filters are not perfect, if you open up a high traffic list, you get loads of crud, and yes, just look at LKML as a example.
A free posting high traffic list will gain a lot of attention in the spam AND anti-spam world, not to mention you WILL get members of free mail services marking messages as junk, enough of them do it, BAM, this list ends up blocked or auto-trash folder'd
As for keeping this post on topic, I don't care one way or another about cross posting, but if you cross post to lists you are not on, its your own stupid fault.
All,
I'm going to propose changing the netiquette to discuss open and closed lists. ie. The main user lists like this one to keep the no cross-posting netiquette, but the other lists to allow it and to open them up to non-subscriber posts if not already that way.
I'm going to email that proposal to the -project list, because that it really where an actual change to the overall project guidelines should take place. If anyone wants to follow the discussion, they will need to subscribe to -project.
If that causes any readers pain, you should join the discussion on -project and argue for cross-posting behavior to include this list as well.
== more below
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:30 AM, Noel Butler noel.butler@ausics.net wrote:
As for keeping this post on topic, I don't care one way or another about cross posting, but if you cross post to lists you are not on, its your own stupid fault.
The issue isn't if the original poster is on multiple, it is if all the people participating are on both lists.
I just noted that as we speak, there is a cross-posted discussion going on between opensuse-artwork and opensuse-project.
== Re: [opensuse-artwork] Re: [opensuse-project] openSUSE 12.3 Wallpaper Contest
The to: line is: "DuBois, Scott L." ranger@roguehorse.com, "Andy (anditosan)" anditosan1000@gmail.com, opensuse-artwork opensuse-artwork@opensuse.org, opensuse-project opensuse-project@opensuse.org
== I think that is the right way to do it, but it is violating at least 2 of the netiquette guidelines as they currently stand. They are doing reply-all and cross-posting!
fyi: If both -artwork and -project are open to non-subscribers, then this is actually a case of being in 100% accordance with the LKML netiquette and functionality.
If there is strong opinion that the primary end-user support lists are kept closed and cross-posting against netiquette, I guess that is fine. Where I find it most valuable is with the more specialized lists anyways.
The current netiquette entry (of 48 hours ago) says, so I'll take this discussion to -projecta nd see if I can argue effectively enough to get it changed there.
Greg
* Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 17:17]:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
- Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 15:03]:
...
That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.
Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.
Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)
has been previously argued, you see the decision.
With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.
openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.
I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead.
good, but sure seems like it.
I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.
superior is relative in this case. I do not think so.
In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?
Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too.
Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided.
eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.
I do not see that. The "rules" here have been formulated and debated over many years to result in present day "netiquette" presented on the wiki.
cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.
I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.
The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!
Again, the onus on providing readable and properly formed content is on the poster....
I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.
LKML should not be discussed here. We are *not* LKML. Many on m$ and yahoo and ... lists believe html to be *the* way to post and we do not.
Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.
And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.
I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email.
fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it.
Discussion about the expectations for this list should definitely be discussed here. On -project discussion of this list netiquette would be off-topic.
Patrick,
Somehow I missed your email below until now as I cleaned my opensuse folder for the last 24 hours. Obviously you and I are in disagreement. Such things happen, and due to lack of support I've given up on trying to get netiquette for this list changed.
As such, -project was the only place I can think of to discuss netiquette for the rest of the lists.
Greg
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 6:55 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
- Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 17:17]:
On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Patrick Shanahan paka@opensuse.org wrote:
- Greg Freemyer greg.freemyer@gmail.com [12-05-12 15:03]:
...
That's how LKML (linux kernel mailing lists) handles it, so those technically elite users encourage and use a cross-posting philosophy on their main lists. I see it employed all the time there and I don't recall anyone ever complaining.
Has been (was) a long standing "rule" here.
Then, I'm arguing for a rule change :)
has been previously argued, you see the decision.
With LKML, the end result is a collection of 100 or so related specialized lists were specialists are subscribed to just a few lists and anyone can post to any of the lists. If an issue affects multiple areas, then the posters just cross-post to all of the various lists and the reply-all philosophy that is mandated on LKML lists makes it work transparently.
openSUSE lists are not LKML :^) just as all countries do not use metric or speak the same language. Reply-all w/o trimming to list-only is also frowned upon in the wiki.
I'm not arguing we MUST follow LKML's lead.
good, but sure seems like it.
I am arguing the the opensuse lists are similar in nature to LKMLs with a primary list and multiple specialty lists, and we should therefor benchmark ourselves against them. From my perspective, the LKML netiquette is superior.
superior is relative in this case. I do not think so.
In responding to the original I clearly failed to remove the other lists but in this particular instance how is one to know the post will be seen and how is one to effect the archives show proper threading without?
Once a email is cross-posted, I agree the only good option is to keep it up. But with openSUSE lists often only accepting subscribers posts, that fails too.
Thus I totally agree that as long as opensuse lists are typically subscriber only for posting, cross-posting should be avoided.
eg. It is not a decision that can be made in isolation from other issues I raised.
I do not see that. The "rules" here have been formulated and debated over many years to result in present day "netiquette" presented on the wiki.
cross-posting generates unneeded duplication and where one does not have the facility or knowledge to /dev/null those, he is bombarded with needless traffic.
I suspect cross-posting will always be the minority of emails. And email client rules can be setup to detect and kill dups.
The onus on providing readable content is on the poster and obligation is *not* transferred to the potential reader to clean the poster's mess!
Again, the onus on providing readable and properly formed content is on the poster....
I can only refer back to the LKML netiquette which is very different from the opensuse netiquette in regards to reply-all and cross-posting. They have found it works well and I'm sure there are various email client recipes available to handle the behavior in a smooth way.
LKML should not be discussed here. We are *not* LKML. Many on m$ and yahoo and ... lists believe html to be *the* way to post and we do not.
Clearly my vote is that ALL opensuse lists be opened up for non-subscriber posts and follow the lead of LKML for both the reply-all and the cross-posting netiquette issues.
And *clearly* should be proffered in a "new thread" as has nothing to do with *this* thread.
I guess this was a borderline thread high-jack. I did that because I quoted some of your earlier email.
fyi: Is this mailing list the right place to discuss this? Or should it be on -project? In a cross-posting world, I could just add -project now and not worry about it.
Discussion about the expectations for this list should definitely be discussed here. On -project discussion of this list netiquette would be off-topic.
-- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse+owner@opensuse.org
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