[opensuse] Re: Why Not Fix the Easy Bugs??
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
I know, as I wrote, it is not bound to this thread, just a question on what KDE3 people expect if they use the 11.2 DVD, because since version 4 is higher than 4 they will get an update of their KDE3 to 4.
do you know you gives a great info, here? * kde3 is dropped - so we should hope kde4 to be fixed (unusable right now) * openSUSE will make possible the update kde3->kde4. Such thing was not done previously right? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
I know, as I wrote, it is not bound to this thread, just a question on what KDE3 people expect if they use the 11.2 DVD, because since version 4 is higher than 4 they will get an update of their KDE3 to 4.
do you know you gives a great info, here?
* kde3 is dropped - so we should hope kde4 to be fixed (unusable right now)
Same old, same old...
* openSUSE will make possible the update kde3->kde4. Such thing was not done previously
Not sure what you mean. If there is no KDE3 but only KDE4 one will have to update if one wants to use 11.2. Not sure if the community will maintain a KDE3 repo, so one might be able to add it at install time, yet that would be unsupported I guess. In case you refer to the smoothness of an update from KDE3 to KDE4, not sure how that was for KDE1 -> KDE2 or even KDE2 -> KDE3, but you could try with the KDE2 livecd. http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3926 even though AFAIK that change was a bit different from what 3->4 is. Anyway, I guess there will be some issues with updating for those that are still using KDE3 and did not start using KDE4 yet, as there are always issues with updating, leaving aside that one updates one major version to another. Those that are using KDE4 already, albeit it being unusable for the past few months [...], have taken the step already and do not have to worry about 11.2. Those still using KDE3 have the betas of openSUSE 11.2 to test and report major updating issues. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
Same old, same old...
well, I dropped even kde 4.2 after several weeks trying. I know openSUSE is probably the last one giving kde3 (Mandriva is only kde4) - but many gives only Gnome :-(
* openSUSE will make possible the update kde3->kde4. Such thing was not done previously
Not sure what you mean. If there is no KDE3 but only KDE4 one will have to update if one wants to use 11.2.
say you have 11.1 with kde3. you update to 11.2. What will remain in your disk? will you still have the old kde3.5? will kde4 be installed? or only kde4, dropping all the kde3 stuff? I don't remember the previous version of kde did as many difference in UI than this one. Notice, I always do fresh installs, so no problem such for me but, to go back to the inital thread, problems are quite normal with using OBS. nothing to do with kde. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-eic8MSSfM http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1412160445 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
Same old, same old...
That statement is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in a transport cafe' it is all very well being sarcastic when you cant be bothered to give a decent answer but it solves NOTHING AT ALL ... Period . If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it yet you still continue to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point thing . I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person . Pete . -- Opensuse 10.3 x86_64 (Linux is like a wigwam no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 19:01:26 schrieb peter nikolic:
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
Same old, same old...
That statement is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in a transport cafe' it is all very well being sarcastic when you cant be bothered to give a decent answer but it solves NOTHING AT ALL ... Period .
I see, resurrecting the discussion for the one thousand and first time is going to be of use then because people will add new views and facts instead of repeating what they have already stated in detail a few weeks/months ago.
If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it yet you still continue to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point thing .
I think even those who strongly argue in favour of KDE3 would not sign that. I'm too lazy to do some research so call me wrong on this, but I would bet there are lots and lots of applications and projects that remove features while adding others over time which would be forbidden if I'd take your statement above seriously. There are even KDE applications that got discontinued after KDE3 development ended. I guess openSUSE should replace their developers and bring back kaboodle and noatun, as an example, because all packages means all packages, does it not? You highlighted it by capital letters which might be seen as "shouting", so you really must have meant it. I might be wrong though - maybe. BTW I want/need the moon on a stick. But anyway, thanks for making your attitude and way of argumentation that obvious. The sad thing though is that I have not read a single argument in your statement but just "Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it [...]". So we all know it but some work against their own knowledge because it makes them happy to do something although they know it's wrong? Sounds like a conspirancy to me. Due to the lack of arguments I could not answer to any of them, which is not too bad since most of that conversation would be in the archives already anyway. I just hope you did not expect answers to arguments like "you know it, i know it, we all know it ".
I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person .
You should not draw conclusions about others based on yourself. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 19:01:26 schrieb peter nikolic:
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
Same old, same old...
Due to the lack of arguments
Quite simple really if you READ and THINK n o Arguments AT ALL just FACTS that you like to so quickley sweep under the proverbial rug , Once again you have FAILED hasta La Vista Pete . -- Opensuse 10.3 x86_64 (Linux is like a wigwam no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun April 12 2009 1:37:29 pm Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 19:01:26 schrieb peter nikolic:
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a �crit :
Same old, same old...
That statement is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in a transport cafe' it is all very well being sarcastic when you cant be bothered to give a decent answer but it solves NOTHING AT ALL ... Period .
I see, resurrecting the discussion for the one thousand and first time is going to be of use then because people will add new views and facts instead of repeating what they have already stated in detail a few weeks/months ago.
If it is a valid issue, and it is, then it should be discussed as many thousands of times as needed to make the needed changes in attitudes. Apparently you feel that it is OK to release buggy software then say if you don't switch to that buggy software, we will force you because not only will we ensure openSuSE won't support the earlier functional (and I didn't say totally bug-less) version, it will remove it if you upgrade to 11.2. Worse, you are saying that it would be OK to modify a functional 11.1 environment by removing or altering already installed previous versions of KDE or forego upgrading to 11.2 even though such things as OTHER packages, or even the kernel or drivers have been fixed correcting numerous bugs in the earlier release(s). You are so myopic, so pathetic, so wrong. You are very much part of the problem and as Peter indicated, add NOTHING to the correction of the overriding problem which isn't just limited to KDE but happens to be a great example of what is wrong. Your mantra seems to be nothing more than rabble-rousing and trying to blur the real issues just to protect your beloved prematurely released and crammed down the throats of those that don't find your particular software so wondrous as you do package. I suppose if you had nuclear tipped missiles, you would advocate deploying them against any person or machine that didn't just LOVE KDE 4.0 when it was released or who still disagree that what was, and is being done is wrong. I have been a user of openSuSE for many years, want it to succeed very much, but that doesn't mean I and many others like the way it is going and the KDE issue epitomizes the problem you appear too blind to see. I hope one of your nuclear tipped missiles self-destructs while you are standing next to it. Then you might see the problem, but I doubt it because you will still have your eyes closed to the bug(s) that set it off prematurely.
If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it yet you still continue to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point thing .
I think even those who strongly argue in favour of KDE3 would not sign that.
I definitely would and I perceive so do many others. HOWEVER that doesn't address the real issues, that of fixing bugs in currently released software before you devote exclusive attention to developing new bugs.
I'm too lazy
I can see that. If it wasn't true, your posts would be constructive instead of devicive
to do some research so call me wrong on this, I just did, but in case you didn't hear or perceive that fact, here it is again: You're WRONG.
but I would bet there are lots and lots of applications and projects that remove features while adding others over time which would be forbidden if I'd take your statement above seriously.
KDE didn't remove FEATURES, it removed (or is removing) a WHOLE functional version entirely BEFORE the replacement version is ready to support the same features as currently exist in installed systems. That is tantamount to a major auto manufacturer removing wheels and tires from their product and substituting little refrigerator magnets because they are developing mag-lev as a replacement and then saying to current users of their product that if your wheels fall off your current vehicle then you have to buy our new mag-lev version because that broken axle that caused the wheel to fail was due to a bug in our manufacture or design and because it is on an old (but still under warrantee) design and we are working on mag-lev so we WONTFIX it because it would interfere with our playing around with magnets.
There are even KDE applications that got discontinued after KDE3 development ended. I guess openSUSE should replace their developers and bring back kaboodle and noatun, as an example, because all packages means all packages, does it not? You highlighted it by capital letters which might be seen as "shouting", so you really must have meant it. I might be wrong though - maybe. BTW I want/need the moon on a stick. But anyway, thanks for making your attitude and way of argumentation that obvious.
And I could say the same....thanks for making your myopic views and way of argumentation so obvious. You are very good at one thing: You are bull-doggedly adept at spewing specious nothings that do nothing to solve the underlying problems. You give the KDE Devs a bad name and hurt the product and their good efforts. Your method of SHOUTING loud and often, trying to divert the issue(s), concentrating on nit-picking definitions of words and concepts and IGNORING the problem IS THE PROBLEM and it does nothing to make KDE, openSuSE or anything else better either in the long run or even the short run in most cases. I have yet to see a constructive word uttered by any of your posts to ANYONE.
The sad thing though is that I have not read a single argument in your statement but just "Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it [...]". So we all know it but some work against their own knowledge because it makes them happy to do something although they know it's wrong? Sounds like a conspirancy to me. Sounds like you have a mental problem that might be solved by a psychiatrist given time.
Due to the lack of arguments I could not answer to any of them, which is not too bad since most of that conversation would be in the archives already anyway. I just hope you did not expect answers to arguments like "you know it, i know it, we all know it ".
I doubt he expected ANYTHING constructive from you, but at least he tried....an exercise in futility, but he tried.
I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person .
You should not draw conclusions about others based on yourself.
Sven
He used the words 'condescending person' in your case. What conclusion would you rather him have drawn....maybe 'myopic condescending ASS' is what you think he should have concluded? Maybe you are right, he did draw an erroneous conclusion. This whole thread was about attitudes and priorities needing fixing and when the OP not only diagnosed a problem, he offered a way to locate the error. That the error manifest itself in a KDE package isn't the issue, the issue is 'Why not fix the easy bugs' especially ones introduced into an otherwise functioning package BECAUSE of the development of the newest development version. Your attempts to divert the issue to a KDE3 vs KDE4 issue is not going to solve anything because that isn't even the issue. Of course, people afflicted with your version of myopia will never see that. You are not worth responding to further. There are lost souls in this world and in you, I have found one. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person .
You should not draw conclusions about others based on yourself.
He used the words 'condescending person' in your case. What conclusion would you rather him have drawn....maybe 'myopic condescending ASS' is what you think he should have concluded? Maybe you are right, he did draw an erroneous conclusion.
Come on, if you do not want to make yourself look silly you should at least be as smart as to not call people names, base your rant on allegations or exaggerate your frustration to a point where even if you had a point your attitude would disqualify your arguments. I'm glad that your posts are in the archives. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person .
You should not draw conclusions about others based on yourself.
He used the words 'condescending person' in your case. What conclusion would you rather him have drawn....maybe 'myopic condescending ASS' is what you think he should have concluded? Maybe you are right, he did draw an erroneous conclusion.
Come on, if you do not want to make yourself look silly you should at least be as smart as to not call people names, base your rant on allegations or exaggerate your frustration to a point where even if you had a point your attitude would disqualify your arguments.
I'm glad that your posts are in the archives.
Sven
You see that is exactly your problem you side step and twist words to suit yourself , I am also glad it is all in the archives so we can all poke it straight at you when it all goes T**S up .. Pete . -- Opensuse 10.3 x86_64 (Linux is like a wigwam no Gates, no Windows, and an Apache inside.) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Richard wrote:
On Sun April 12 2009 1:37:29 pm Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 19:01:26 schrieb peter nikolic:
On Sunday 12 April 2009, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Sonntag, 12. April 2009 16:14:28 schrieb jdd:
Sven Burmeister a écrit :
Same old, same old...
That statement is about as much use as a chocolate teapot in a transport cafe' it is all very well being sarcastic when you cant be bothered to give a decent answer but it solves NOTHING AT ALL ... Period .
I see, resurrecting the discussion for the one thousand and first time is going to be of use then because people will add new views and facts instead of repeating what they have already stated in detail a few weeks/months ago.
If it is a valid issue, and it is, then it should be discussed as many thousands of times as needed to make the needed changes in attitudes. Apparently you feel that it is OK to release buggy software then say if you don't switch to that buggy software, we will force you because not only will we ensure openSuSE won't support the earlier functional (and I didn't say totally bug-less) version, it will remove it if you upgrade to 11.2. Worse, you are saying that it would be OK to modify a functional 11.1 environment by removing or altering already installed previous versions of KDE or forego upgrading to 11.2 even though such things as OTHER packages, or even the kernel or drivers have been fixed correcting numerous bugs in the earlier release(s).
You are so myopic, so pathetic, so wrong. You are very much part of the problem and as Peter indicated, add NOTHING to the correction of the overriding problem which isn't just limited to KDE but happens to be a great example of what is wrong. Your mantra seems to be nothing more than rabble-rousing and trying to blur the real issues just to protect your beloved prematurely released and crammed down the throats of those that don't find your particular software so wondrous as you do package. I suppose if you had nuclear tipped missiles, you would advocate deploying them against any person or machine that didn't just LOVE KDE 4.0 when it was released or who still disagree that what was, and is being done is wrong.
I have been a user of openSuSE for many years, want it to succeed very much, but that doesn't mean I and many others like the way it is going and the KDE issue epitomizes the problem you appear too blind to see. I hope one of your nuclear tipped missiles self-destructs while you are standing next to it. Then you might see the problem, but I doubt it because you will still have your eyes closed to the bug(s) that set it off prematurely.
If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it yet you still continue to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point thing .
I think even those who strongly argue in favour of KDE3 would not sign that.
I definitely would and I perceive so do many others. HOWEVER that doesn't address the real issues, that of fixing bugs in currently released software before you devote exclusive attention to developing new bugs.
I'm too lazy
I can see that. If it wasn't true, your posts would be constructive instead of devicive
to do some research so call me wrong on this,
I just did, but in case you didn't hear or perceive that fact, here it is again: You're WRONG.
but I would bet there are lots and lots of applications and projects that remove features while adding others over time which would be forbidden if I'd take your statement above seriously.
KDE didn't remove FEATURES, it removed (or is removing) a WHOLE functional version entirely BEFORE the replacement version is ready to support the same features as currently exist in installed systems. That is tantamount to a major auto manufacturer removing wheels and tires from their product and substituting little refrigerator magnets because they are developing mag-lev as a replacement and then saying to current users of their product that if your wheels fall off your current vehicle then you have to buy our new mag-lev version because that broken axle that caused the wheel to fail was due to a bug in our manufacture or design and because it is on an old (but still under warrantee) design and we are working on mag-lev so we WONTFIX it because it would interfere with our playing around with magnets.
There are even KDE applications that got discontinued after KDE3 development ended. I guess openSUSE should replace their developers and bring back kaboodle and noatun, as an example, because all packages means all packages, does it not? You highlighted it by capital letters which might be seen as "shouting", so you really must have meant it. I might be wrong though - maybe. BTW I want/need the moon on a stick. But anyway, thanks for making your attitude and way of argumentation that obvious.
And I could say the same....thanks for making your myopic views and way of argumentation so obvious. You are very good at one thing: You are bull-doggedly adept at spewing specious nothings that do nothing to solve the underlying problems. You give the KDE Devs a bad name and hurt the product and their good efforts.
Your method of SHOUTING loud and often, trying to divert the issue(s), concentrating on nit-picking definitions of words and concepts and IGNORING the problem IS THE PROBLEM and it does nothing to make KDE, openSuSE or anything else better either in the long run or even the short run in most cases.
I have yet to see a constructive word uttered by any of your posts to ANYONE.
The sad thing though is that I have not read a single argument in your statement but just "Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it [...]". So we all know it but some work against their own knowledge because it makes them happy to do something although they know it's wrong? Sounds like a conspirancy to me.
Sounds like you have a mental problem that might be solved by a psychiatrist given time.
Due to the lack of arguments I could not answer to any of them, which is not too bad since most of that conversation would be in the archives already anyway. I just hope you did not expect answers to arguments like "you know it, i know it, we all know it ".
I doubt he expected ANYTHING constructive from you, but at least he tried....an exercise in futility, but he tried.
I know you dont like me i in fact you dont like anyone that does not tow your line thats your perogative but in actual fact could not give a monkeys toss about that BUT it is time you started taking notice and STOPPED BEING such a condescending person .
You should not draw conclusions about others based on yourself.
Sven
He used the words 'condescending person' in your case. What conclusion would you rather him have drawn....maybe 'myopic condescending ASS' is what you think he should have concluded? Maybe you are right, he did draw an erroneous conclusion.
This whole thread was about attitudes and priorities needing fixing and when the OP not only diagnosed a problem, he offered a way to locate the error. That the error manifest itself in a KDE package isn't the issue, the issue is 'Why not fix the easy bugs' especially ones introduced into an otherwise functioning package BECAUSE of the development of the newest development version. Your attempts to divert the issue to a KDE3 vs KDE4 issue is not going to solve anything because that isn't even the issue. Of course, people afflicted with your version of myopia will never see that.
You are not worth responding to further. There are lost souls in this world and in you, I have found one.
Sorry to come back to this party so late. But (a) I am a former KDE 3.5 user who tried and then abandoned KDE4, not so much for then-current bugs as for attitude that I must abandon paradigms that work for me (icons on the desktop, for example), and then as an after-thought due to backlash, the developers tell us we can learn to create an extra overlay panel if we insist on not running with a clean desktop. School is out, people, I will use what is mine however I want to, and if you try to get me to buy into something you insist on revamping to your tastes, I will simply shop elsewhere. And (b) I do not require that all KDE3 features work, but that there are functional equivalents of all working tools and working modes, and that it does not require me to do extensive configuration to get there on an upgrade. In point of fact, I would have been more likely to try KDE4 at upgrade to 11.2 if the KDE team had left KDE3.5 as an option, so that I could rollback temporarily if I wanted, or start there and migrate to KDE4 after I had things going smoothly at 11.2. The path taken does nothing to reduce my perception that the KDE developers feel that they can, will, and must cause users to change the way that they are used to doing things, coupled with the belief that we are all too stupid to be better off unless they drag us there. As it stands now, unless I see some substantial changes in the way KDE4 will transition for me from the KDE3.5 paradigm, I am unlikely to upgrade to 11.2 with KDE, but rather again go with Gnome. Gnome is OK for me, although I liked KDE3.5 a bit better. But I do not intend to jump into a new way of doing things, one which the developers feel we must be forced into. When and if a sea-change occurs in the demonstrated attitude of the KDE4 team towards current and former KDE3.5 users occurs, I will re-try KDE, but not until. But Ric, your analogy of the move from highways to mag-lev was just spot-on. We should have a "best-of" list award every year on this list, and I would nominate your post (for that section) in a heartbeat. Dan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On or about Friday 29 May 2009 at approximately 16:20:49 Dan Goodman composed: <big snip>
Sorry to come back to this party so late.
Don't be, no time is too late for the truth to bubble to the surface. We will all look back in a couple of years at the wisdom (or lack thereof) of the management decisions made concerning the development, implementation and transition from KDE3 to KDE4. A sad dyslogy is already being prepared.
But (a) I am a former KDE 3.5 user who tried and then abandoned KDE4, not so much for then-current bugs as for attitude that I must abandon paradigms that work for me (icons on the desktop, for example), and then as an after-thought due to backlash, the developers tell us we can learn to create an extra overlay panel if we insist on not running with a clean desktop. School is out, people,
Therein lies the point. There is a difference between 'getting work done' on a computer and never getting done 'getting your computer to work.' That point has been entirely missed in the decisions made surrounding the forced transition to KDE4. I would not have been hesitant at all to move to KDE4 if I could just sit down and 'get work done' on the desktop. But instead I end up endlessly chasing disappearing widgets or plasmoids that add nothing to my ability to 'get work done' but cause endless problems when they crash. When I don't have to 'get work done', I don't mind at all working with KDE4, filing bug reports, etc.., but I have to have the ability to 'get work done' first. Spare time is a luxury.
And (b) I do not require that all KDE3 features work, but that there are functional equivalents of all working tools and working modes, and that it does not require me to do extensive configuration to get there on an upgrade.
Loss of functionality is never acceptable in what is represented to be an "upgrade." <snip>
But Ric, your analogy of the move from highways to mag-lev was just spot-on. We should have a "best-of" list award every year on this list, and I would nominate your post (for that section) in a heartbeat.
Dan
KDE4 is getting there, but it is still not an honest "replacement" in terms of stability or functionality for KDE3, nor will it be by the release of 11.2. Therein lies the problem which no one is willing to address. It is no secret and it is a foreseeable reality major desktop rewrite/transitions. The management failure within openSuSE is failing to have a backup plan in the event the foreseeable happened. For the second time in a row it seems we get to look forward to a release with a desktop that is less stable and less functional than where we were in October 2007. (Note: Don't get me wrong, this isn't a bash everything post, I fully recognize the great improvements that have been made to virtually all other areas of openSuSE from 10.3 on. Job well done there. This post is limited solely to the KDE4 desktop) While I have no confidence that KDE4 will be a honest replacement by 11.2 release, I am confident that it will get there by 11.0 EOL. In the interim if we can just keep the 'accidentally on purpose' breakage of KDE3 packages under control and fix the problems caused by building KDE3 apps against the KDE4 runtime which breaks KDE3 functionality, then I think we will get through this OK. **************** By the way, I'm still waiting on someone to fix kdiff3.... It is still broken in community due to admittedly being compiled against the kde4 runtime which breaks konqueror integration (one of it best bits of functionality and efficiency)... which is what started this thread to begin with ;-) **************** In close, I think we can all agree that where the "pooch got screwed" with KDE4 was the (decision to/fiasco that resulted from) the release 4.04 as the default desktop on 11.0. What were they smoking -- alpha software as the apparent default? What should have happened was to continue KDE3 as the primary, supported desktop through 11.1 with KDE4 offered as an alternative. Then in 11.2 KDE4 could have been made the default with KDE3 offered as an alternative scheduled for phase out with the release of 11.3 with the contingency plan to support it in 11.3 should KDE4 still not be up to par. (the latter of which is still possible and doable) Had a competent phase in/phase out plan been developed with proper contingency planning and had that plan and schedule been provided to the openSuSE community instead of the series of "surprises" that unfolded, then the roll-out of KDE4 could have been much more successful, more orderly and perhaps even anxiously anticipated. Who knows, I may be completely wrong and KDE4 may be ready by 11.2. We will likely all be moving to KDE4 by 11.2 anyway. If I am, then we may be able to write a eulogy instead of a dyslogy. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. Rankin Law Firm, PLLC 510 Ochiltree Street Nacogdoches, Texas 75961 Telephone: (936) 715-9333 Facsimile: (936) 715-9339 www.rankinlawfirm.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
At Wed, 3 Jun 2009 01:25:46 -0500, David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. wrote:
Therein lies the point. There is a difference between 'getting work done' on a computer and never getting done 'getting your computer to work.'
That point has been entirely missed in the decisions made surrounding the forced transition to KDE4. I would not have been hesitant at all to move to KDE4 if I could just sit down and 'get work done' on the desktop. But instead I end up endlessly chasing disappearing widgets or plasmoids that add nothing to my ability to 'get work done' but cause endless problems when they crash.
That's the main point here. Though I'm usually a GNOME user, I have one production machine with KDE4 installed. It took me a whole day to reinstall the system, running GNOME now, solely for the purpose of getting work done. And it has eaten a lot of time being spent for bug hunting and working around things which did prevent people to be able to use that machine at all. KDE4 is deeply broken, period. I'm not going to move back to it ever, and so there will not be any bug reports from me either. Thanks for clarifying the situation, that's just it. KDE developers should realise what's going on (and maybe take the great KDE3 and re-develop things from there again), and distribution makers should consider the consequences of forcing people to radically change the desktop environment by force-moving them to KDE4. Some said above, it doesn't affect me that much, I'm a convinced GNOME user, these are just my 5ø. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 13:29:25 Heinz Diehl wrote:
At Wed, 3 Jun 2009 01:25:46 -0500,
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. wrote:
Therein lies the point. There is a difference between 'getting work done' on a computer and never getting done 'getting your computer to work.'
That point has been entirely missed in the decisions made surrounding the forced transition to KDE4. I would not have been hesitant at all to move to KDE4 if I could just sit down and 'get work done' on the desktop. But instead I end up endlessly chasing disappearing widgets or plasmoids that add nothing to my ability to 'get work done' but cause endless problems when they crash.
That's the main point here.
Though I'm usually a GNOME user, I have one production machine with KDE4 installed. It took me a whole day to reinstall the system, running GNOME now, solely for the purpose of getting work done. And it has eaten a lot of time being spent for bug hunting and working around things which did prevent people to be able to use that machine at all. KDE4 is deeply broken, period. I'm not going to move back to it ever, and so there will not be any bug reports from me either.
Thanks for clarifying the situation, that's just it. KDE developers should realise what's going on (and maybe take the great KDE3 and re-develop things from there again), and distribution makers should consider the consequences of forcing people to radically change the desktop environment by force-moving them to KDE4.
Some said above, it doesn't affect me that much, I'm a convinced GNOME user, these are just my 5�.
Don't want to start a flame war, but I'm a die-hard KDE user (since 1.0) and to be honest, the only problems I've got with KDE 4.x are with openSUSE. Other distros (ArchLinux to be precise) don't have the issues openSUSE has with KDE 4.x. What issues did I have? - segfaults - CPU and RAM hogged up - system unstable Hardware I'm using: - ia32 laptop with Intel VGA, intel driver, EXA acceleration (have some issues with UXA), 1 GB RAM. Running openSUSE in 1 partition and Arch in another partition. Both partitions have the same hardware, drivers, KDE, ... Both distros are the ia32 version - x86_64 deskside: ATI (radeonhd driver). Same story: one partition with openSUSE and one with Arch, same drivers, same versions of KDE,... Both distros are the x86_64 version. The openSUSE KDE 4 gives me endless problems, none with Arch Yes, also tried AMD/ATI drivers and problems still persist with openSUSE and not with ArchLinux IMHO, it's not a KDE issue. Got a buddy that uses Debian with KDE 4 and doesn't have issues either, another one uses Kubuntu: no issues. I'm not "attacking" openSUSE. I think it has great stuff like YaST2, user friendliness, ... But the openSUSE KDE 4 hasn't been as cared for as the rest of the sw openSUSE has. My 2¢ Rafa -- "We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love." rgriman@skype.com rgriman@jabberes.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
At Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:41:52 +0200, Rafa Griman wrote:
Don't want to start a flame war, but I'm a die-hard KDE user (since 1.0) and to be honest, the only problems I've got with KDE 4.x are with openSUSE. Other distros (ArchLinux to be precise) don't have the issues openSUSE has with KDE 4.x.
Thanks for pointing this out! There will be no flame war here, I respect your opinion and the experience you made.
What issues did I have? - segfaults - CPU and RAM hogged up - system unstable
The same has happened here, using opensuse 11.1, so you could be right :-) When I get some time in the next 2 weeks, I'll give KDE4 one additional try on the upcoming Fedora 11. I also have a Gentoo machine here which is not used for production purpose, maybe I'll stick to it. However, as mentioned before, I'll not be going to move from GNOME to KDE ever on my private systems. That doesn't mean that KDE is worse or better than any other desktop env. either, I'm using KDE3, XFCE and fluxbox at work, and all of them are great (and stable for the purposes they get used!). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Hi :) On Wednesday 03 June 2009 14:40:34 Heinz Diehl wrote:
At Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:41:52 +0200,
Rafa Griman wrote:
Don't want to start a flame war, but I'm a die-hard KDE user (since 1.0) and to be honest, the only problems I've got with KDE 4.x are with openSUSE. Other distros (ArchLinux to be precise) don't have the issues openSUSE has with KDE 4.x.
Thanks for pointing this out! There will be no flame war here, I respect your opinion and the experience you made.
Thanks, nice to know :) You never know when a flame war can get started =:0
What issues did I have? - segfaults - CPU and RAM hogged up - system unstable
The same has happened here, using opensuse 11.1, so you could be right :-)
When I get some time in the next 2 weeks, I'll give KDE4 one additional try on the upcoming Fedora 11. I also have a Gentoo machine here which is not used for production purpose, maybe I'll stick to it. However, as mentioned before, I'll not be going to move from GNOME to KDE ever on my private systems. That doesn't mean that KDE is worse or better than any other desktop env. either, I'm using KDE3, XFCE and fluxbox at work, and all of them are great (and stable for the purposes they get used!).
True. In any case, don't say "ever" ;) You never know, maybe openSUSE 11.2 gets KDE 4 as stable and nice as KDE 3.5.x was. In the meantime, if GNOME gets the job done, perfect but you must know we'll miss you in the KDE community :"( Rafa -- "We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love." rgriman@skype.com rgriman@jabberes.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 12 April 2009 12:01:26 pm peter nikolic wrote:
If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable , you know it, i know it, we all know it yet you still continue to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point thing .
Pete, can you re-read what you wrote. I'm very sure that anybody using "ALL" have actually no idea what he is using, nor he tried to find equivalents. I'm talking as KDE3 user that moves KDE4 applications in File Associations, from second to first place, and that makes me informed about issues that people can face. The difference between applications is by the day smaller, with more settings offered on KDE4 side. Not all components are at the same development level, but what seems to be fairly well completed is better than what is provided in version 3. See this: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Configure_Desktop/General/Desktop/Window_Shadow itty-bitty function that never existed in KDE3. Important if you want to tune graphical layout to perfection, not important if you have customers that will stick with you despite competition that offers all the same plus good look, which indicates attention to detail. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun April 12 2009 1:52:46 pm Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 12 April 2009 12:01:26 pm peter nikolic wrote:
If you intend to release 11.2 with NO KDE.3.5 then you have got to �ensure that it has ALL the functions that are wanted/needed that includes ALL Packages and softwares that are in KDE 3.5.x and i do mean ALL packages anything less is COMPLETELY unacceptable �, you know it, �i know it, �we all know it �yet you still continue �to do absolutely nothing except give people a hard time just because they voice a very GENUINE and to the point �thing .
Pete,
can you re-read what you wrote. I'm very sure that anybody using "ALL" have actually no idea what he is using, nor he tried to find equivalents.
Focusing on words like ALL or EVERYBODY in an attempt to cloud or divert the real issues is a favorite tactic o people that Pete was responding to and often it is successful in clouding or diverting the real, underlying issue(s). The OP wasn't lambasting KDE4, he was saying that while attempting to upgrade KDE3, a change in KDE4 caused a failure. He asked the legitimate question which I paraphrase 'Why not fix bugs especially the easy ones because I have pointed out what and where the bug lives and when it happened'. Sven chose to make it a KDE3 vs KDE4 issue, not an issue that is much more fundemental to todays support and development model(s).
I'm talking as KDE3 user that moves KDE4 applications in File Associations, from second to first place, and that makes me informed about issues that people can face. The difference between applications is by the day smaller, with more settings offered on KDE4 side. Not all components are at the same development level, but what seems to be fairly well completed is better than what is provided in version 3.
Again, the issue isn't one of KDE3 vs KDE4 and no one argued that KDE4 is not progressing nicely but one could argue that until it is much further along, it is premature to drop, even remove, a previous and essentially complete and functional product especially for the sake of developing a functional replacement. While KDE4 2.2 is a long way ahead of earlier versions, it still isn't ready to be jammed down peoples throats by saying if you want to upgrade your system (kernel, drivers, other applications, etc), you will lose the Desktop Environment that currently works well for your needs, worse, as Sven indicated in a previous post in this thread, it will remove previous versions. So, 11.2 will damage existing installations if you aren't careful when you *upgrade*.
See this: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Configure_Desktop/General/Desktop/Window_Shadow itty-bitty function that never existed in KDE3. Important if you want to tune graphical layout to perfection, not important if you have customers that will stick with you despite competition that offers all the same plus good look, which indicates attention to detail.
-- Regards, Rajko
No one said that KDE4 doesn't potentially offer new or even valuable features. What has been said is that fixing bugs should be of a higher priority than trying to add features. Fixing bugs in an earlier, but still included in the current distribution can often prevent the same thpes of errors from be incorporated in the new development version. Unfixed bugs are often there because of bad logic which will often be used in the new development and thus propogate that type of bug in the new code. Of course, the mentality of not fixing bugs in current releases because a new one is under development won't stop the developend version from having the same/similar bugs. Worse, once released, that becomes the 'current' version and won't be fixed because a 'newer, more wonderous, less ancient, etc. version is again under development so the bug will have yet another chance to propogate. Rajko, while I occasionally, even farily often, disagree with you on some issues, I respect you because in the bigger picture, I perceive that you are being, or trying to be, constructive. The person you responded to has none of those virtues, nor my respect. FWIW, I too use KDE3, have KDE4 installed and seen a lot of progress. That isn't the real issue. I hope KDE4 succeeds my wildest hopes and even the wildest expectations of those involved with its development, the issue is one of priorities and attitudes and while KDE is a good example of how not to introduce a new product, it isn't even the issue of this thread. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
While simple answer to your post is: "You don't take in account all issues, which as many simplifications in real world lead to conclusions that may, or may not, survive more thorough scrutiny. " I'll take time to go trough and answer the best I can. That will be incomplete too, but it will be based on more details and more accurate. On Sunday 12 April 2009 02:34:20 pm Richard wrote:
On Sun April 12 2009 1:52:46 pm Rajko M. wrote: ...
can you re-read what you wrote. I'm very sure that anybody using "ALL" have actually no idea what he is using, nor he tried to find equivalents.
Focusing on words like ALL or EVERYBODY in an attempt to cloud or divert the real issues is a favorite tactic o people that Pete was responding to and often it is successful in clouding or diverting the real, underlying issue(s). The OP wasn't lambasting KDE4, he was saying that while attempting to upgrade KDE3, a change in KDE4 caused a failure.
I do understand that. I just noticed that, in my opinion, one should not use easily "all" and "everybody". First, we usually can talk only about our experience, and we are not "all" and "everybody". Second, to avoid mentioned I'm looking for numbers in miscellaneous statistics. They suprise me more often than not, which indicates that talking from my corner of the world is not valid either as "all", nor "everybody".
He asked the legitimate question which I paraphrase 'Why not fix bugs especially the easy ones because I have pointed out what and where the bug lives and when it happened'. Sven chose to make it a KDE3 vs KDE4 issue,
It is not Sven's choice to switch topic. His first respond to original poster states (paraphrased) that Novell has no plans to dedicate people to maintain KDE3. In current time, when everyone is forced to rationalize, they want KDE4 to be developed as fast as possible. It is left to openSUSE volunteers and their interest to keep KDE3 up and running. Some people do that, trying to incorporate new stuff offered in KDE4 libs, but it obviously doesn't work well all the time for all little conveniences we are used to. Without looking in the code no one can tell what is more important, one function, or security fixes in newer implementation. Is dropped function problematic one that needs serious work to be safe, or it is just oversight by developers. That means without knowing background, that we don't know, claiming it is easy fix is not substantiated with anything relevant.
not an issue that is much more fundemental to todays support and development model(s).
You worked with software where you was creator and you was able to make decision what, when and how, it will be fixed. The openSUSE as distribution has not that luxury. First mainstream/upstream is deciding in all three of the questions for majority of software included. If openSUSE developer decide to fix a bug the way openSUSE users want and upstream doesn't accept fix, he is stuck to fix every version after that, as long as it goes [1]. Second, distribution developers responsibility is not to fix all the bugs in all applications they incorporate. Their responsibility is to fix only parts they changed in upstream code in order to make applications work fine based on common versions of libraries.
I'm talking as KDE3 user that moves KDE4 applications in File Associations, from second to first place, and that makes me informed about issues that people can face. The difference between applications is by the day smaller, with more settings offered on KDE4 side. Not all components are at the same development level, but what seems to be fairly well completed is better than what is provided in version 3.
Again, the issue isn't one of KDE3 vs KDE4 and no one argued that KDE4 is not progressing nicely but one could argue that until it is much further along, it is premature to drop, even remove, a previous and essentially complete and functional product especially for the sake of developing a functional replacement.
KDE4 is just reaction to KDE3 status. KDE3 had too many patchworks introduced to allow use newer hardware capabilities, new demand for functionality, that did not exist few years ago when ground work for old KDE was done. Maintenace of that code required too much effort, and any improvement would mean much more work then rewriting. Note that I don't know much about coding and what I mentioned above is what I picked up from KDE web sites, and some comments on problems with the code are few years old when nobody was thinking of KDE4. I guess that anyone of developers would rather move slowly without stirring water, if that would not mean much longer period of breaking stuff and fixing bugs. One of issues is also that KDE woke up somewhat late, so rush to expose KDE4 to user base to test should be understood, specially that openSUSE is one of very few distributions that still give users option to run KDE3 as main desktop, and KDE4 as playground.
While KDE4 2.2 is a long way ahead of earlier versions, it still isn't ready to be jammed down peoples throats by saying if you want to upgrade your system (kernel, drivers, other applications, etc), you will lose the Desktop Environment that currently works well for your needs, worse, as Sven indicated in a previous post in this thread, it will remove previous versions. So, 11.2 will damage existing installations if you aren't careful when you *upgrade*.
The problem is that assumption (that 11.2 will damage existing KDE3 installation) is pulled out of thin air. The installer can be designed to refuse to update (upgrade) system without explicit user permission.
See this: http://en.opensuse.org/KDE_Configure_Desktop/General/Desktop/Window_Shado w itty-bitty function that never existed in KDE3. Important if you want to tune graphical layout to perfection, not important if you have customers that will stick with you despite competition that offers all the same plus good look, which indicates attention to detail. ... No one said that KDE4 doesn't potentially offer new or even valuable features. What has been said is that fixing bugs should be of a higher priority than trying to add features. Fixing bugs in an earlier, but still included in the current distribution can often prevent the same thpes of errors from be incorporated in the new development version.
Only guys that work on KDE (and those that can read the C++) know why they don't fix some of reported bugs. It could be that bug is in Qt libs and already fixed in Qt 4.5 while still present in Qt 4.4 that we use with KDE 4.2.2. The big problem is when users assume, or being pushed into assumption by people that show some knowledge, that there is something like single block of code called KDE4 that has errors, and it is only up to the KDE developers to fix them. What application developer can do if his code depend on libraries (kdelibs) that further depend on another libraries (qtlibs) and bug is there, ie. qtlib function doesn't work the way it is advertised in API documentation. You can make workarounds, but when Qt devs correct problem you are stuck with code that is incompatible. That happened with 4.2.2. In order to improve user experience, fast, they fixed part of the application code they are responsible for, and now you can't use Qt 4.5 with KDE 4.2.2. I'm sure that you don't advocate this path, it is waste of time.
Unfixed bugs are often there because of bad logic which will often be used in the new development and thus propogate that type of bug in the new code. Of course, the mentality of not fixing bugs in current releases because a new one is under development won't stop the developend version from having the same/similar bugs. Worse, once released, that becomes the 'current' version and won't be fixed because a 'newer, more wonderous, less ancient, etc. version is again under development so the bug will have yet another chance to propogate.
Whole logic of above statement is in general correct, but applied to KDE it assumes that KDE guys have no interest to create correct working code, which is flat wrong. They are not children, many work for companies that have interest in KDE well being, other can expect if they are good in KDE someone will offer them employment (it happened before), so you can imagine that majority has very good incentive not to show even remote signs of irresponsibility that many poster here and around the Web take as primary assumption for their claims.
Rajko, while I occasionally, even farily often, disagree with you on some issues, I respect you because in the bigger picture, I perceive that you are being, or trying to be, constructive. The person you responded to has none of those virtues, nor my respect.
You already answered that in separate email. Pete is just annoyed because things he is using doesn't work, but that will be addressed. Not every KDE developer has the same amount of time to fix the things, nor KDE as a whole should stop development until they are done. I've read somewhere idea of reassigning resources, but that is not possible with exception in some special cases. While all developers can read and write C++, that doesn't mean that they all know special requirements of each application. Expecting that you can reassign email client developer to help guys handling graphical interface, or vice versa, because they both use same programming language is the same as expecting that mechanical engineer can handle electronics design issues, only because they both talk English.
FWIW, I too use KDE3, have KDE4 installed and seen a lot of progress. That isn't the real issue. I hope KDE4 succeeds my wildest hopes and even the wildest expectations of those involved with its development, the issue is one of priorities and attitudes and while KDE is a good example of how not to introduce a new product, it isn't even the issue of this thread.
I'm pretty sure that KDE will make it. Idea of small changes that break nothing is noble, but that doesn't work well when you want to go from system designed with year 2000 hardware, as a base, to year 2007 hardware. You have to change fundamental assumptions what you hardware can do. Not to mention underlaying software (kernel) changes, new services introduced since 2000, and, of course, user expectations. [1] The branching of OpenOffice to Go-OO http://go-oo.org/ is consequence of something like that. I was witness - bug reporter - where discussion on OpenOffice bugzilla was defense of difference to MS product, for sake of difference, exposing user to unexpected Calc behavior. It was stupid small thing about graying out Save when file is not changed, which works fine in text editor (most of the time), and not in Calc. The openSUSE developer agreed that Save should be available all the time, as there is no damage if you use Save on file that is the same as before, but upstream disagreed. The bug report there is long living, few years old, with a lot of comments, and I don't think it will be solved anytime soon. Of course this periferal usability issue would not make reason for Novell to dedicate developers time to Go-OO branch, there was many more, and many of them substantial, I guess youcan find them somewhere on Go-OO web site. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-04-13 at 12:31 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
etc), you will lose the Desktop Environment that currently works well for your needs, worse, as Sven indicated in a previous post in this thread, it will remove previous versions. So, 11.2 will damage existing installations if you aren't careful when you *upgrade*.
The problem is that assumption (that 11.2 will damage existing KDE3 installation) is pulled out of thin air. The installer can be designed to refuse to update (upgrade) system without explicit user permission.
I'm afraid that the current status is that 11.2 will have no kde3, and thus, when upgrading will simply upgrade kde3 to 4. The end result if the user had both (or only kde3), is that he will then have only kde4. It would be a good idea to offer leave kde3 install and config files intact (not upgraded), while perhaps having an option (if possible) to copy over kde3 config to a new kde4 config when users start kde4 the first time. I don't know if leaving kde3 intact is even possible, but it is the way to go if the user intends to keep kde3 updated via OBS; as it is now, I believe the route would be, first upgrade system, kde3 disappears, then add repo, install kde3 again. Not too bad if the user configuration does not disappears in the process. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknjgGUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XGzACfZr53s5CRyzWAfAs05ndupg+E USUAnigKwFv8DUZf7Y5U9JoicXV1VFlt =bCkq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Mon April 13 2009 2:11:43 pm Carlos E. R. wrote:
On Monday, 2009-04-13 at 12:31 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
etc), you will lose the Desktop Environment that currently works well for your needs, worse, as Sven indicated in a previous post in this thread, it will remove previous versions. So, 11.2 will damage existing installations if you aren't careful when you *upgrade*.
The problem is that assumption (that 11.2 will damage existing KDE3 installation) is pulled out of thin air. The installer can be designed to refuse to update (upgrade) system without explicit user permission.
I'm afraid that the current status is that 11.2 will have no kde3, and thus, when upgrading will simply upgrade kde3 to 4. The end result if the user had both (or only kde3), is that he will then have only kde4.
It would be a good idea to offer leave kde3 install and config files intact (not upgraded), while perhaps having an option (if possible) to copy over kde3 config to a new kde4 config when users start kde4 the first time.
I don't know if leaving kde3 intact is even possible, but it is the way to go if the user intends to keep kde3 updated via OBS; as it is now, I believe the route would be, first upgrade system, kde3 disappears, then add repo, install kde3 again. Not too bad if the user configuration does not disappears in the process.
-- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
That is also my understanding of the situation. I also think your solution is valid...it doesn't ruin what you already have/use and it allows upgrading to 4.x+ if you are ready to do so. As an aside, but related, when I updated a customer from 3.5.9 to 3.5.10, some of the KDE3 apps were upgraded to KDE4 versions even though they had the same name. The biggest example was Konqueror which lost so many functions that I reinstalled the fersion in 3.5.9 and ignored the dependency errors encounterd because of other similar 'upgrades'. So far, no side-effects on that one reinstall, but I am sure there are other programs I left 'upgraded' because I didn't deem it worth the problems. My fear is that your proposed solution might 'upgrade' existing 3.5.9 versions to the hybridized versions of apps with the same name, eg, librariess or applets (or whatever they're called now) that still remain shared (under development) in KDE4.x. David Rankin found that using stuff from the OBS to upgrade his KDE3 apps caused an error because apparantly changes made by 4.x development are replacing versions in the 3.x OBS distro channel. Aside from that, I generally concur with your observations. -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 13 April 2009 06:15:18 pm Richard wrote:
David Rankin found that using stuff from the OBS to upgrade his KDE3 apps caused an error because apparantly changes made by 4.x development are replacing versions in the 3.x OBS distro channel. � Aside from that, I generally concur with your observations.
It was one lost function from context menu, which is not real bug. I'll put on my todo to see how to add items to context menu. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday, 2009-04-13 at 19:15 -0400, Richard wrote: ...
That is also my understanding of the situation. I also think your solution is valid...it doesn't ruin what you already have/use and it allows upgrading to 4.x+ if you are ready to do so.
As an aside, but related, when I updated a customer from 3.5.9 to 3.5.10, some of the KDE3 apps were upgraded to KDE4 versions even though they had the same name. The biggest example was Konqueror which lost so many functions that I reinstalled the fersion in 3.5.9 and ignored the dependency errors encounterd because of other similar 'upgrades'. So far, no side-effects on that one reinstall, but I am sure there are other programs I left 'upgraded' because I didn't deem it worth the problems.
That's the problem David reported on the Bugzilla. Indeed, if that is happening, it is impossible to install kde3 from the OBS: not now, not ever again. It is not that kde3 is not "fixed", I can live with that; it is that is being broken.
My fear is that your proposed solution might 'upgrade' existing 3.5.9 versions to the hybridized versions of apps with the same name, eg, librariess or applets (or whatever they're called now) that still remain shared (under development) in KDE4.x. David Rankin found that using stuff from the OBS to upgrade his KDE3 apps caused an error because apparantly changes made by 4.x development are replacing versions in the 3.x OBS distro channel. Aside from that, I generally concur with your observations.
Yes, I agree with that. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAknj4ZwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UjIwCfSTjMDmCmrYrIgLXQcw68f5j7 znIAn2WNd4LxfsDTW7Gji5DWYrw3Crf7 =QGzv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag, 13. April 2009 19:31:52 schrieb Rajko M.:
While simple answer to your post is: "You don't take in account all issues, which as many simplifications in real world lead to conclusions that may, or may not, survive more thorough scrutiny. "
I'll take time to go trough and answer the best I can. That will be incomplete too, but it will be based on more details and more accurate.
On Sunday 12 April 2009 02:34:20 pm Richard wrote:
On Sun April 12 2009 1:52:46 pm Rajko M. wrote:
...
can you re-read what you wrote. I'm very sure that anybody using "ALL" have actually no idea what he is using, nor he tried to find equivalents.
Focusing on words like ALL or EVERYBODY in an attempt to cloud or divert the real issues is a favorite tactic o people that Pete was responding to and often it is successful in clouding or diverting the real, underlying issue(s). The OP wasn't lambasting KDE4, he was saying that while attempting to upgrade KDE3, a change in KDE4 caused a failure.
I do understand that. I just noticed that, in my opinion, one should not use easily "all" and "everybody".
First, we usually can talk only about our experience, and we are not "all" and "everybody".
Second, to avoid mentioned I'm looking for numbers in miscellaneous statistics. They suprise me more often than not, which indicates that talking from my corner of the world is not valid either as "all", nor "everybody".
He asked the legitimate question which I paraphrase 'Why not fix bugs especially the easy ones because I have pointed out what and where the bug lives and when it happened'. Sven chose to make it a KDE3 vs KDE4 issue,
It is not Sven's choice to switch topic.
His first respond to original poster states (paraphrased) that Novell has no plans to dedicate people to maintain KDE3. In current time, when everyone is forced to rationalize, they want KDE4 to be developed as fast as possible. It is left to openSUSE volunteers and their interest to keep KDE3 up and running. Some people do that, trying to incorporate new stuff offered in KDE4 libs, but it obviously doesn't work well all the time for all little conveniences we are used to.
Usually I get that kind of email only off list since people do not want to make themselves a target of allegations and insults. Your explanations were quite good, yet I have to admit that IMHO if people have a positive or neutral attitude towards KDE4, which does not mean that you have to like it, they would write in a different style than some people here do. If they already start with a negative attitude then any explanation is a waste of time no matter how often you try, simply because they are prejudiced and read things into your emails. So while I will not get to those people's low level of insulting others, I stopped trying to explain in detail why KDE4 is what KDE4 is. Instead I help people that have a positive attitude towards KDE4 and need some starting help. Actually you should add your texts to the wiki and simply point people to it. That might save some time. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 14 April 2009 08:55:03 am Sven Burmeister wrote:
Usually I get that kind of email only off list since people do not want to make themselves a target of allegations and insults.
Which useless. Post to the list is in archives for years to come, readers that will eventually read them have right to see proper response. If someone don't want to be target of attack, then better is not to post.
Your explanations were quite good, yet I have to admit that IMHO if people have a positive or neutral attitude towards KDE4, which does not mean that you have to like it, they would write in a different style than some people here do. If they already start with a negative attitude then any explanation is a waste of time no matter how often you try, simply because they are prejudiced and read things into your emails.
Some people here act like there is hidden motivation that they don't want to reveal. I mentioned in another post today, that amount of time spent arguing is comparable to research of alternatives, if not larger. KDE is what it is. It is opensource, and it inherited opensource software properties. It is authors expression what is right. You can ask for change, but if it conflicts with author philosophy the only remedies are: - make your own branch - vote with usage and that is since ever. I didn't go to GNOME mail list to argue endlessly features that are core of their philosophy. I just don't use it.
So while I will not get to those people's low level of insulting others, I stopped trying to explain in detail why KDE4 is what KDE4 is. Instead I help people that have a positive attitude towards KDE4 and need some starting help.
That is the only way to go. Though, I find that there is need to explain the same on multiple places to reach more people.
Actually you should add your texts to the wiki and simply point people to it. That might save some time.
That is THE idea. Although, I'm sure that I need coauthor on that. I'm KDE user, not insider, so any help is needed and wanted. I guess it should go in KDE/FAQ/Goals_FAQ, or in KDE/FAQ/General_FAQ. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
On Sun April 12 2009 1:52:46 pm Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 12 April 2009 12:01:26 pm peter nikolic wrote:
Regards, Rajko Pete, I sincerely apologize for
Rajko, while I occasionally, even farily often, disagree with you on some issues, I respect you because in the bigger picture, I perceive that you are being, or trying to be, constructive. � The person you responded to has none of those virtues, nor my respect.
YOU have my respect, I should have said the person Pete was responding to.... Sorry for letting my testicles get in way of my focus of who was saying what. Again, I think you are one of those that wear the white hat and don't deserve the guilt by association (of having responding to a black hat). -- Richard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse+help@opensuse.org
participants (10)
-
Carlos E. R. -
Dan Goodman -
David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -
Heinz Diehl -
jdd -
peter nikolic -
Rafa Griman -
Rajko M. -
Richard -
Sven Burmeister