For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
Thank God for Ilya -- good to be with you man :)
On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:17:45 +0530, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
Thank God for Ilya -- good to be with you man :)
well, i was happy with KDE 4.5.x, and now am with 4.6 RC2. that they include an earlier release of the kdepim suite in their stable releases (4.5 & upcoming 4.6) doesn't seem overly problematic to me; these versions work fine. in fact, i'm using the up-to-date kdepim version from the kdepim46 repo, and the only thing it has problems with is importing large amounts of data; otherwise it runs fine, too.
i wish you happiness with KDE 3.5 and hope it'll remain available, but i prefer windowmaker or awesome if i want to see something different than KDE4 for a while.
On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 09:45, phanisvara das wrote:
On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:17:45 +0530, David C. Rankin drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com wrote:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
Thank God for Ilya -- good to be with you man :)
well, i was happy with KDE 4.5.x, and now am with 4.6 RC2. that they include an earlier release of the kdepim suite in their stable releases (4.5 & upcoming 4.6) doesn't seem overly problematic to me; these versions work fine. in fact, i'm using the up-to-date kdepim version from the kdepim46 repo, and the only thing it has problems with is importing large amounts of data; otherwise it runs fine, too.
i wish you happiness with KDE 3.5 and hope it'll remain available, but i prefer windowmaker or awesome if i want to see something different than KDE4 for a while.
I have to agree with phani here. KDE 4.6 is working very well so far. Yes, KDEPIM was held back, but for good reason.. it didn't work as they wanted, and rather than releasing potentially broken software to everyone, they made the call to hold it back one release (hmmm that's opposite of the original implication here). Seems like a good thing.... and.. KDEPIM is available (the 4.6 builds) anyway if you want to install it.
That thread doesn't provide any insight at all to be honest... it's just someone's misunderstanding and frustration with the KDE4 in Kubuntu. Brad Hards' reply on that thread is accurate from my view.... did anyone read it?
That link doesn't make me think KDE4 is Beta.. it's no more "fixed" or "broken" than any other part of the Linux landscape, be it Pulse Audio, Gnome, the autodetect your monitor thing in X, KDE3, KDE4, or whatever bit you want to point at.
C.
On 1/15/2011 2:02 AM, C wrote:
That thread doesn't provide any insight at all to be honest... it's just someone's misunderstanding and frustration with the KDE4 in Kubuntu. Brad Hards' reply on that thread is accurate from my view.... did anyone read it?
That link doesn't make me think KDE4 is Beta.. it's no more "fixed" or "broken" than any other part of the Linux landscape, be it Pulse Audio, Gnome, the autodetect your monitor thing in X, KDE3, KDE4, or whatever bit you want to point at.
C.
The thread doesn't go far enough to provide specifics, that's for sure.
Its far more than just kdepim that is broken, but the OP does not mention any other portions.
KDEPIM is pretty useless right now for me, so I stick to Thunderbird and google utilities.
Perhaps the reason why no additional detail was provided was this bit in one of the replies:
"These statements are not friendly, and are not constructive. Please refrain from repeating them, and similar things."
So the old KDE shout-down lives on.
In the mean time the rest of KDE 4 works quite well as long as you overlook the frequent crashes of basic elements.
For instance, I'm on the bug list for bug 257944 https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=257944 and the ONLY thing done about this bug has been marking dozens of other reports as duplicates of this report. The crash is always as I exit the application having already accomplished what I wanted, so it is annoying rather than debilitating.
That being said, I use 4.6beta daily and find it works very well. I do this on a machine I can put at modest risk, and since I am along for the "stabilization ride" as Will put it, I update frequently, and have only had a couple days of really brokenness.
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 07:47:45 schrieb David C. Rankin:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
Who is "the developers"? And what do those developers you are refering to develop? That guy did not even know that KDE SC 4.5 and 4.6 do not ship a kdepim release...
So I guess anybody posting to kde-devel must be a developer who is worth quoting - unless of course one would only be interested in quoting a certain kind of opinion...
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
I thought you were smarter than actually trying to claim that the above is from a KDE dev just because someone posted his blabla to a -devel mailinglist.
Hey wait, if I post "KDE3 is oh so broken" to some kde3 devel list, would you quote me as "kde3 developer" as well and regard my quote as valid as the above? Let me guess... Nice attitude you show David!
So this email of yours was just another "let's use the mailinglist as my personal blog" item. Zero relevance to the usage of opensuse. I wish the guidelines would ban people after starting these threads.
Sven
On Saturday 15 January 2011 11:08:01 Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 07:47:45 schrieb David C. Rankin:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the
current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
Who is "the developers"? And what do those developers you are refering to develop? That guy did not even know that KDE SC 4.5 and 4.6 do not ship a kdepim release...
So I guess anybody posting to kde-devel must be a developer who is worth quoting - unless of course one would only be interested in quoting a certain kind of opinion...
I couldn't have said it better myself, Sven.
David, holding up factually incorrect FUD like this is pure flamebait, and I'd expect better from you. Did you run out of KDE 4 bugs that actually affect you personally so you dredged this up? What possible use were you hoping to extract by posting this? Attention?
There are plenty of opportunities for people to pick on other projects' misfortunes, disagreements and present them in a contentious light but the rest of us restrain ourselves and keep this list about helping each other.
Please join us in maintaining a gentlemanly level of discourse.
Will
On Saturday 15 January 2011 11:08:01 Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 07:47:45 schrieb David C. Rankin:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the
current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
Who is "the developers"? And what do those developers you are refering to develop? That guy did not even know that KDE SC 4.5 and 4.6 do not ship a kdepim release...
So I guess anybody posting to kde-devel must be a developer who is worth quoting - unless of course one would only be interested in quoting a certain kind of opinion...
I couldn't have said it better myself, Sven.
David, holding up factually incorrect FUD like this is pure flamebait, and I'd expect better from you. Did you run out of KDE 4 bugs that actually affect you personally so you dredged this up? What possible use were you hoping to extract by posting this? Attention?
There are plenty of opportunities for people to pick on other projects' misfortunes, disagreements and present them in a contentious light but the rest of us restrain ourselves and keep this list about helping each other.
Please join us in maintaining a gentlemanly level of discourse.
Will
Amen to that.
I'm just an ordinary user, but any issues I may have with KDE4 - and there have been a few - fall well short of insisting that developer resources should be siphoned off to address the past when they are needed more usefully to address the future.
David C. Rankin wrote:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
Thank God for Ilya -- good to be with you man :)
I have installed OpenSUSE 11.3 & KDE 4 on a couple of computers at work, in addition to one at home, and I still don't care for it.
I have installed OpenSUSE 11.3 & KDE 4 on a couple of computers at work, in addition to one at home, and I still don't care for it.
Then don't use it.
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 13:30:39 schrieb Michael S. Dunsavage:
I have installed OpenSUSE 11.3 & KDE 4 on a couple of computers at work, in addition to one at home, and I still don't care for it.
Then don't use it.
No! Let's all send to the list what we don't care about! Much more sensible and helpful then to just not mention or use things we do not like or care about! And on top of that lets search all -devel mailinglists on the web for posts that agree with our opinion and quotem them here.
Sven
On Saturday 15 January 2011 12:41:07 Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 13:30:39 schrieb Michael S. Dunsavage:
I have installed OpenSUSE 11.3 & KDE 4 on a couple of computers at work, in addition to one at home, and I still don't care for it.
Then don't use it.
No! Let's all send to the list what we don't care about! Much more sensible and helpful then to just not mention or use things we do not like or care about! And on top of that lets search all -devel mailinglists on the web for posts that agree with our opinion and quotem them here.
Sven
Well i tell you one thing you could do !! make the path to try the updated versions of KDE a bit easier to find this idea of repo's is all very well BUT and it is a BIG BUT it is the black magic needed to find the darn repos in the first place .
Joking aside the complete opensuse web layout to be honest sucks hows about we do it sensibly and get back to the 3 clicks rule if you cant find what you want in 3 clicks then the web site design is sub par , Meanwhile while you are all shuffeling data around to make 3 clicks work
What is the correct repo to try the latest USEABLE version of KDE one that does not have a benny and try to delete half your system in the process
Pete .
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 14:44:27 schrieb Peter Nikolic:
Well i tell you one thing you could do !! make the path to try the updated versions of KDE a bit easier to find this idea of repo's is all very well BUT and it is a BIG BUT it is the black magic needed to find the darn repos in the first place .
I think the wiki re-organisation did not really improve things, but google should get you past that and to http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:KDE_upgrade#Upgrade_to_KDE_4.5
Joking aside the complete opensuse web layout to be honest sucks hows about we do it sensibly and get back to the 3 clicks rule if you cant find what you want in 3 clicks then the web site design is sub par , Meanwhile while you are all shuffeling data around to make 3 clicks work
I'd agree on that, especially having the "Portal" link at the very bottom of the wiki's KDE page http://en.opensuse.org/KDE ist not very helpful.
At the last meeting the idea cam up to put the KR45 and KR46 repos into the community repositories list one can access via YaST.
What is the correct repo to try the latest USEABLE version of KDE one that does not have a benny and try to delete half your system in the process
Some people have issues with crashing plasma after upgrading. In that case move! the configs (to report the issue) and then everything should be ok.
Today somebody on IRC updated from KDE 4.4 straight to KDF (i.e. yet unreleased KDE 4.6) and did not have any issues with plasma crashing. So this seems good news for the upcoming KR46 repo.
Sven
On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 03:19:24PM +0100, Sven Burmeister wrote:
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 14:44:27 schrieb Peter Nikolic:
Well i tell you one thing you could do !! make the path to try the updated versions of KDE a bit easier to find this idea of repo's is all very well BUT and it is a BIG BUT it is the black magic needed to find the darn repos in the first place .
I think the wiki re-organisation did not really improve things, but google should get you past that and to http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:KDE_upgrade#Upgrade_to_KDE_4.5
Joking aside the complete opensuse web layout to be honest sucks hows about we do it sensibly and get back to the 3 clicks rule if you cant find what you want in 3 clicks then the web site design is sub par , Meanwhile while you are all shuffeling data around to make 3 clicks work
I'd agree on that, especially having the "Portal" link at the very bottom of the wiki's KDE page http://en.opensuse.org/KDE ist not very helpful.
At the last meeting the idea cam up to put the KR45 and KR46 repos into the community repositories list one can access via YaST.
Following this approach we ensure to break existing configurations as soon as these particular versions are obsoleted.
With Samba we had the very same potential issue. With some luck we initially decided to us very generic repository names:
network:samba:STABLE and network:samba:TESTING
We have several additional special cases covered in the network:samba:MAINTAINED name space. But our main goal is to keep it simple and stupid and to focus our users to network:samba:STABLE or network:samba:TESTING depending on the needs.
Both intentions we also tried to illustrate in the article at http://en.openSUSE.org/Samba in the section labled "openSUSE Build Service".
Via YaST I prefer to propagate one KDE, one Samba, one what ever repository. Anything beyond should be up to the user.
BTW The recent Tumbleweed approach tracks network:samba:STABLE
Lars
On Saturday, January 15, 2011 08:19:24 am Sven Burmeister wrote:
I think the wiki re-organisation did not really improve things, but google should get you past that and to http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:KDE_upgrade#Upgrade_to_KDE_4.5
You can't blame wiki for portal page that is not fixed since it was established. We still have red links to non existing pages.
The KDE page [1] is not a main page, it is current release (11.3) KDE presentation, but as such, it should contain links to more reading, so that people are not stuck on that page and have to look for Google, and find there Kubuntu :)
Besides we have nice and sincerely very effective Google custom search: http://en.opensuse.org/MediaWiki:GoogleSearch
Joking aside the complete opensuse web layout to be honest sucks hows about we do it sensibly and get back to the 3 clicks rule if you cant find what you want in 3 clicks then the web site design is sub par , Meanwhile while you are all shuffeling data around to make 3 clicks work
I'd agree on that, especially having the "Portal" link at the very bottom of the wiki's KDE page http://en.opensuse.org/KDE ist not very helpful.
Despite portal page being in a not so good shape, link issue is fixed. Now link is directly in the page Intro.
At the last meeting the idea cam up to put the KR45 and KR46 repos into the community repositories list one can access via YaST.
That would be the idea, and I'm not sure why it is not used before.
I see in 11.3 something that I can't figure out should I use or not: KDE:UpdatedApps and something that I assume I can use: KDE:Extra
First, why it is used geekish KDE:UpdatedApps instead of "KDE updated applications" or "KDE applications updates".
Second, we always refer to upstream versions. No one is using UpdatedApps, nor "updated applications", so having upstream version in repository description will help users to find them after reading announcements, mail lists, forums.
That is the only problem since Build Service was established, naming there and naming elsewhere are not the same.
[1] http://en.opensuse.org/KDE
Am Sonntag, 23. Januar 2011, 04:31:16 schrieb Rajko M.:
On Saturday, January 15, 2011 08:19:24 am Sven Burmeister wrote:
I think the wiki re-organisation did not really improve things, but google should get you past that and to http://en.opensuse.org/SDB:KDE_upgrade#Upgrade_to_KDE_4.5
You can't blame wiki for portal page that is not fixed since it was established. We still have red links to non existing pages.
So who caused those red links? Shouldn't that people also fix them? AFAIK there were no red links on the old wiki's page.
The KDE page [1] is not a main page, it is current release (11.3) KDE presentation, but as such, it should contain links to more reading, so that people are not stuck on that page and have to look for Google, and find there Kubuntu :)
As you can see on the other language's wiki the old KDE page included a section on how to update KDE, the current one misses that. So regarding that aspect the new wiki did not improve the situation but worsened it.
Most people are not interested in a description of what KDE is but how to update, report bugs, get packages, get help etc. So from my point of view http://en.opensuse.org/KDE is useless, duplicating information that is available at kde.org already and hides information on updating etc.
I know that the former /KDE page did also contain that info BUT it had the other information as well and that important bit was split away by somebody who should have known better or at least fixed the links he left broken and not just some link in the "see also" section at the bottom of the page.
Besides we have nice and sincerely very effective Google custom search: http://en.opensuse.org/MediaWiki:GoogleSearch
Hm, if I use the "search" at the top of the page and enter "packagekit" http://en.opensuse.org/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=packagekit&... it finds four pages but not http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_11.4_packagekit so I would not claim that the search on the wiki is effective and that search is what the user that comes to the wiki sees and uses. The search you mention seems pretty well hidden as well.
I'd agree on that, especially having the "Portal" link at the very bottom of the wiki's KDE page http://en.opensuse.org/KDE ist not very helpful.
Despite portal page being in a not so good shape, link issue is fixed. Now link is directly in the page Intro.
I do not see any useful link in the first paragraph of http://en.opensuse.org/KDE that would lead the user to the portal.
At the last meeting the idea cam up to put the KR45 and KR46 repos into the community repositories list one can access via YaST.
That would be the idea, and I'm not sure why it is not used before.
Because there was no KR45 when 11.3 was released and because it is debatable whether major version upgrades should be supported by adding them to the list.
I see in 11.3 something that I can't figure out should I use or not: KDE:UpdatedApps and something that I assume I can use: KDE:Extra
What about the search on the wiki? ;)
First, why it is used geekish KDE:UpdatedApps instead of "KDE updated applications" or "KDE applications updates".
That could indeed be changed although updated apps and updated applications should not really make a difference.
Second, we always refer to upstream versions. No one is using UpdatedApps, nor "updated applications", so having upstream version in repository description will help users to find them after reading announcements, mail lists, forums.
So you want each application that is part of the repo in the description of the repo. I can forward that.
Sven
Am Samstag, 15. Januar 2011, 07:47:45 schrieb David C. Rankin:
For those that haven't listened to what the developers are saying about the current readiness of kde4, the following provides a bit of insight:
http://www.mail-archive.com/kde-devel@kde.org/msg00343.html
OpenSuSE was wise to preserve kde3 for 11.3. From the contents of the message above, it would be equally wise to preserve kde3 for 11.4 as well....
Releasing broken software is never a good idea... If you think KDE4 is anything other than beta, despite the astronomical release number following the K the D and the E, the link above should remove all doubt.
Thank God for Ilya -- good to be with you man :)
Please read the whole thread before spreading such FUD. You will see that with kdepim he mrant the 4.6 version, which is NOT released and considered beta.
Herbert
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C -
David C. Rankin -
Herbert Graeber -
James Knott -
John Andersen -
Lars Müller -
Michael S. Dunsavage -
Peter Nikolic -
phanisvara das -
Rajko M. -
Robin Klitscher -
Sven Burmeister -
Will Stephenson